Taqiyya - The Obligation to Lie

(Q)

Encephaloid Martini
Valued Senior Member
Taqiyya translated: Dissimulation: Dissimulation is a form of deception in which one conceals the truth. It differs from simulation, in which one exhibits false information. Dissimulation commonly takes the form of concealing one's ability in order to gain the element of surprise over an opponent.

"[Yusufali 16:106] Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." [5]
And the following

"[Yusuf Ali 3:28] Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah."[6]

Essentially, the Quran allows and actually obliges Muslims to lie, under certain circumstances, similar to the Quran promoting and obliging Muslims to kill or go to war.

Some sects of Islam have ammassed evidence accusing other sects of misusing Taqiyya to cause strife amongst their brethren. The Sunni and Shi'a are primary abusers.

I suspect that the abuse of religious sanctioned lying goes far beyond the abuse of just a few groups. Lying on the international stage from leaders of countries is just the tip of the iceberg. evidently.

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday challenged a university audience to look into "who was truly involved" in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, defended his right to question established Holocaust history and denied there were gay Iranians.

When pressed about the harsh treatment of women, homosexuals and academics who challenge Iran's government, Ahmadinejad painted a rosy picture, saying, "Women in Iran enjoy the highest levels of freedom," he said.

He elicited laughter and boos from the audience at Columbia University when he said, "In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/24/us.iran/index.html


Do you think a religious doctrine should include the obligation to lie? Are Muslims actually lying when they defend their religion as they are obligated to do so? Does lying spill over into their daily lives and become part of their characters?
 
How ironic.

How stupid.

I suppose Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was lying because he was "under threat, persecution or compulsion?"

Of course, 'threat ' or 'compulsion' could mean literally anything. Muslims, like killing and going to war, have complete autonomy to lie as they see fit. They can justify anything they want by decrying they are under threat or compulsion.
 
How stupid.

I suppose Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was lying because he was "under threat, persecution or compulsion?"

Of course, 'threat ' or 'compulsion' could mean literally anything. Muslims, like killing and going to war, have complete autonomy to lie as they see fit. They can justify anything they want by decrying they are under threat or compulsion.

I don't recall Ahmedinejad concealing his faith. Do you?
 
Taqiyya translated: Dissimulation: Dissimulation is a form of deception in which one conceals the truth. It differs from simulation, in which one exhibits false information. Dissimulation commonly takes the form of concealing one's ability in order to gain the element of surprise over an opponent.

You have a problem with that?
The Ugly Duckling and the Dark Horse phenomena?


Do you think a religious doctrine should include the obligation to lie?

To give another example from another religion: In Buddhism, one of the Bodhisattva vows is to tell a deliberate lie in order to save a life or protect from serious harm. Even though on the whole, Buddhism teaches to refrain from lying.

It is sometimes practical to lie.


But the actual issue with telling truth and telling lies comes down to this: Whom does one trust? Whom does one put one's faith in? Some random person one meets somewhere? Whose words matter to one?


Are Muslims actually lying when they defend their religion as they are obligated to do so?

I think this is between God and them. I don't presume to know what goes on in that. It is their business.
 
Do you think a religious doctrine should include the obligation to lie? Are Muslims actually lying when they defend their religion as they are obligated to do so? Does lying spill over into their daily lives and become part of their characters?

Close, but no cigar. The actual verse dealing with taqiyya is as follows:

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."

Q [16:106]

This doesn't mean you can disband your religion's ideals when it's convenient to do so. This, in no way, implies the permission to lie in hopes of spreading your faith. It's only meant to say that, showing disbelief in God and one's religion is not permitted. However, if somebody is forced to say or do something vehemently contrary to their religion (because they are under compulsion to do so), then they are forgiven.

Examples? In Muhammad's time, during the persecution of the early Muslims by the Quraysh, many new converts were forced to believe in the stone statues of the Kaaba, or risk losing their lives. Modern day: how Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib were forced to curse Allah's name, drink beer, eat pork, and break their fast during Ramadan. This verse justifies these (normally) deplorable acts, because the people were forced to commit them by armed guards.

It's a misconception that Muslims are allowed to lie about their religion to attract newcomers. Disbelief (or signs of it) is an act only permitted in times of imminent danger - surely, that description does not suit well with the "obligation to lie in order to attract converts".

How stupid.

I suppose Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was lying because he was "under threat, persecution or compulsion?"

Huh? I don't quite understand. Taqiyya is a tradition dealing with the concealment of one's beliefs to protect themselves and their family. How does Ahmadinejad fit into this at all?

Who knows, who cares? He lied on the international stage. You tell me why?

There is a politics subforum, you know.
 
Of course, 'threat ' or 'compulsion' could mean literally anything. Muslims, like killing and going to war, have complete autonomy to lie as they see fit. They can justify anything they want by decrying they are under threat or compulsion.

Do you think that because they can justify anything they want by decrying they are under threat or compulsion,
they always justify anything they want by decrying they are under threat or compulsion?
 
This doesn't mean you can disband your religion's ideals when it's convenient to do so. This, in no way, implies the permission to lie in hopes of spreading your faith. It's only meant to say that, showing disbelief in God and one's religion is not permitted. However, if somebody is forced to say or do something vehemently contrary to their religion (because they are under compulsion to do so), then they are forgiven.

Which is in stark contrast to Christianity: Christians are obligated to admit their faith in God no matter what, even under threat of death.
 
Let me see if I understand Q's argument:
The Koran says someone can lie about their faith to protect themselves.
Therefore Muslims lie regularly about a wide range of things
Proof: a Muslim leader lied (but not about his faith)

I don't know about you Q, but every atheist I know would lie in certain situations to protect themselves and the ones they love.

My father is an atheist. He would lie, for example, to protect me from harm. I am sure he would even proclaim himself a theist to protect, for example, my mother.

Can I now proclaim that atheists will lie about anything?

I think it is kind of ironic actually. Essentially Islam is relativistic in this instance. It is creating a flexible response rather than, for example, the Christian on in relation to abortion. Flexibility: A trait we tend to associate with secular humanism: situation dependent response. Something, hell, that I would like to encourage. I am not much of a fan of the monotheisms, but I think you are going to have to do a bit more research in your pursuit of....

well, perhaps it's best not to mention the name.
 
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Can we see it as a restriction on lying, that is, lie only under serious threat ?
But if someone cries threat everywhere to justify lies then Allah/Mohd cannot be held responsible.
 
Essentially Islam is relativistic in this instance. It is creating a flexible response rather than, for example, the Christian on in relation to abortion. Flexibility: A trait we tend to associate with secular humanism: situation dependent response.

I heard once (but unfortunately I can't remember more) that there is a basic difference between how Christianity is practiced and how Islam is practiced; there is even a term for this that means something to the effect of "being responsible to the other members of the same religion".
Namely, if a Christian sees another Christian commit a sin, the Christian is obligated to report to the authorities no matter what; if a Muslim sees another Muslim commit a transgression, such obligation is not present, the Muslim can but doesn't have to report to the authorities.
 
I heard once (but unfortunately I can't remember more) that there is a basic difference between how Christianity is practiced and how Islam is practiced; there is even a term for this that means something to the effect of "being responsible to the other members of the same religion".
Namely, if a Christian sees another Christian commit a sin, the Christian is obligated to report to the authorities no matter what; if a Muslim sees another Muslim commit a transgression, such obligation is not present, the Muslim can but doesn't have to report to the authorities.

Interesting. I have to admit I am very ignorant about Islam.
 
whoever stupid enough to believe the lies from the muslim world, perhaps deserves whats coming from him?

too bad the ones getting hurt are the ones who dont believe them.
the irony...
 
hey All,

hows it going?

Kadark, thanks for this, this is what i understand by Taqiyya

Close, but no cigar. The actual verse dealing with taqiyya is as follows:

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."

Q [16:106]

This doesn't mean you can disband your religion's ideals when it's convenient to do so. This, in no way, implies the permission to lie in hopes of spreading your faith. It's only meant to say that, showing disbelief in God and one's religion is not permitted. However, if somebody is forced to say or do something vehemently contrary to their religion (because they are under compulsion to do so), then they are forgiven.

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Huh? I don't quite understand. Taqiyya is a tradition dealing with the concealment of one's beliefs to protect themselves and their family. How does Ahmadinejad fit into this at all?



There is a politics subforum, you know.


I think muslims/islam are more realistic about lying when you are getting persecuted like greenberg and the other dude who mposted after him state

Which is in stark contrast to Christianity: Christians are obligated to admit their faith in God no matter what, even under threat of death.



yes it is a pity that some muslims feel that they cannot reprot another muslim if they knwo thye are doing wrong or goign to commit a criem or whatever, thank goodness i dont worry about hings like that

I heard once (but unfortunately I can't remember more) that there is a basic difference between how Christianity is practiced and how Islam is practiced; there is even a term for this that means something to the effect of "being responsible to the other members of the same religion".
Namely, if a Christian sees another Christian commit a sin, the Christian is obligated to report to the authorities no matter what; if a Muslim sees another Muslim commit a transgression, such obligation is not present, the Muslim can but doesn't have to report to the authorities.
 
yes it is a pity that some muslims feel that they cannot reprot another muslim if they knwo thye are doing wrong or goign to commit a criem or whatever, thank goodness i dont worry about hings like that


wtf!
dude!
you getting a bj or something?
 
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