Symbols in a dream?

[Tenshi]

Equally, sorry to disagree here, but a dream is rather like a painting - there's really no such thing as an irrelevant element, everything present is there for a reason - it doesn't just appear simply because its a dream. Like marks on paper or canvas, if they're there they're there for a reason.

Hehe, well, I consider it depends on the author of the picture . Salvador Dali undoubtedly placed every little detail in his pictures for a certain reason and giving it a certain meaning, whilst Picasso (this is only an example... I think there are even better examples, can't think of one right now) has many paintings which were done without a certain meaning or the wish to reach some kind of visual climax for the viewer, but just randomly representing modern art (Yeah, I'm sorry to say this, but I think most Picasso paintings are a bunch of lines and colors done with total randomness and trying to look interesting . He was undoubtedly a genious in his domain, but then again, his domain was not limited in any way, since he could claim that his painting was meant to look like that, no matter who would have said anything against it.))

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Every detail may be there for a reason but that does mean it is relevant in terms of being helpful to the dreamer in using an interpretation to effect change, gain comfort, etc.

Some of the dream details will be related to things seen and experienced during the day, a line from a film, a dress in a shop, means you saw them during the day but does mean you are going through an effeminate stage and want to start wearing ladies clothing etc.



It would help Tenshi if you gave your own spin on your dream after the two very different anlaysis you have rec'd.

meanwhile Tenishi, do you have a brother and is this 'injustice' related to him?

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

.... Erm, kind of was referring to them actually in context there, old stick... It was the meaning of imagery concerning death I was generally generalising.

If your looking for the reason why, specifically, its school children in Tenshi's dream - the idea of school is what happened to be the closest representation of Tenshi's current environmental situation as currently living it in relation to what's actually sparking off his dream in the first place. It isn't related to domestic environment on any level - school is the first area in which we generally first experience the process of learning to compare ourselves to others exterior to family members. This is an environment Tenshi currently finds himself, similar environment, similar associations but significantly different enough to warrant the necessity to differentiate it as such: hence the image of school children and not students.

The connotation is all past tense. This is comparison between present and past. Tenshi reinforces this immediately after the business in the playground when the child he see's transforms into something evil and leering - immediately after initially recoiling from the image Tenshi calls to mind the recollection of an old school friend, again someone firmly associated both with similar environment and equal past tense, but someone whom to Tenshi's experience represents someone typical of clear, objective thinking - a quality Tenshi feels he shared with this specific person.

Immediately there after, Tenshi begins to review where he started regarding surgical procedures illustrating the notion of bringing about superficial cosmetic changes specifically to the body - no other area. Instead of viewing them in disquieting terms he see's them clearly in unambiguous terms, unencumbered by overly disturbing emotional responses.

Equally, sorry to disagree here, but a dream is rather like a painting - there's really no such thing as an irrelevant element, everything present is there for a reason - it doesn't just appear simply because its a dream. Like marks on paper or canvas, if they're there they're there for a reason.

sorry old chap but I don't agree with your analysis but that's the nature of dreams, no 'proof' either way. Unless it is a very specific analysis (that happens to be correct) as oppose to a general one that could apply to a wide range of people.

Meanwhile for me the most relevant part of the dream and the point I worked out from was the blood.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Hehe, well, I consider it depends on the author of the picture . Salvador Dali undoubtedly placed every little detail in his pictures for a certain reason and giving it a certain meaning, whilst Picasso (this is only an example... I think there are even better examples, can't think of one right now) has many paintings which were done without a certain meaning or the wish to reach some kind of visual climax for the viewer, but just randomly representing modern art (Yeah, I'm sorry to say this, but I think most Picasso paintings are a bunch of lines and colors done with total randomness and trying to look interesting. He was undoubtedly a genious in his domain, but then again, his domain was not limited in any way, since he could claim that his painting was meant to look like that, no matter who would have said anything against it)

.... Forgive me, but I couldn't help but smile at your reaction to "Modern Art" as you put it, especially with regards to someone like Picasso. I had something of an instinct he wouldn't be to your taste. Kind of misses the point though. Paint doesn't paint itself. Nothing stays on a canvas, not a solitary mark, unless the artist responsible for it deems it so.

Irrespective of ones impressions to the contrary, when you think about it, it's impossible for it to be any other way. That such marks may make no specific, discernible sense to the viewer is not the artists problem, nor for that matter, the paintings. This isn't merely just semantics arguing here for the sake of it - just simple, objective logic.

To a painter, there is no discernible difference between a Dali and, say, a constructionist period Picasso - all that's actually there on either canvas is paint. On one, the Dali, the marks made create the illusion of representation juxtaposed against idea's concerning reality. In the other the marks made by the artist aren't used to convey the illusion of reality at all - Picasso's more interested in looking at the role of a painter beyond the traditional role of someone who creates such representational illusions of perception - he's more interested in exploring the notion of what remains aesthetic, irrespective of form.

Introduction to Modern Art 101 aside, the point remains: a painting is simply an area, be that canvas, a wall, whatever - they simply do not paint themselves. Everything you see, from the last little detail, someone had to physically place there.

The inside of ones head is exactly the same, dreams never more clearly so. Every last little bit of a dream is you. Quite irrespective of how things may either appear or feel.

If y'ever really want to wrap your lobes around these things, that's where you have to start. Not with what you want to see - but simply what is there...

sorry old chap but I don't agree with your analysis but that's the nature of dreams, no 'proof' either way. Unless it is a very specific analysis (that happens to be correct) as oppose to a general one that could apply to a wide range of people.

Meanwhile for me the most relevant part of the dream and the point I worked out from was the blood.

Oh, please old girl. Really, nothing to apologise for. You're perfectly entitled to go barking up the wrong tree with this any time y'choose...

The actual key was the "horrible ugly pig-face" appearing beneath the patient from the bed, almost as if as a reflection cast in a mirror. The blood and surgery are simply representations of the notion of physical pain and alteration. In the aftermath unidentified patient turns in the bed face down and, as it pull at the covers, something approximating a pigs face stares back at them - but it isn't just a pigs face, it's a mask. Something lending the wearer the appearance of pig-like features.

This is a very straight forward, very simple transliteration between one simple word and its meaning: vanity.

Pigs are often associated with selfishness and self-centred behaviour, irrespective of their actual natures. "Selfish Pig!" , "Inconsiderate swine!" - these are common enough curses, their meaning clear and unambiguous. But it isn't an actual pigs face Tenshi's patient see's looking back at them as if in reflection - it's a mask.

The purpose of a mask is both a: concealment of self and b: a superficial altering of appearance - again, both connotations linking directly the imagery of cosmetic surgery, physical alteration and idea's regarding appearance of self.

Literally it translates as meaning Vanity - this is an unsympathetic, emotional judgement Tenshi is making towards the idea specifically of bringing about physical changes to ones body. Tenshi isn't in the slightest an either vain or conceited person, however he does have very strong feelings regarding people who are and really doesn't want to feel that something he's only considering doing in the first place is going to lead him down a path wherein either himself or other people might consider his actions those of simply vanity.

It cuts against the grain of his idea of self image - nevertheless, he wants to try doing more with his physique. and his emotional responce is what we are seeing in his dream up till the point he conjours up the memory of his old friend.

From that point on, he views the same idea's wholly analytically. His friends image is saying to his more objective side - whoa there, Nelly! Calm down. Reign it in...!

Earlier I entered this discussion with a question to Tenshi regarding how he himself views his own own personal appearance, objectively and realistically. It was a heavily stacked question, deliberatively so. I more or less told him he had a highly positive attitude towards his own sense of physical appearance and Tenshi asked me the question:"...but why would someone read or not read something like this out of a strange dream like that?"

If you're reading, you'll note I never actually answered you about that one at the time. But, if your still curious, this is why I knew to ask and why I knew the answer already.

You told me.

It's also kind of why I also knew before hand you wouldn't think much of "Modern Art", in case you're interested....

A

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Mr A

the major problem with your analysis is, it applies to evryone I know and possibly the vast majority of people that I do not. Pretty much all young people are body conscious. Thus you ask any of them " are you body conscious?' the answer will be yes. Also why did you need to ask this:

You say above:
"Earlier I entered this discussion with a question to Tenshi regarding how he himself views his own own personal appearance, objectively and realistically. It was a heavily stacked question, deliberatively so"

If the dream was 'obvious' why do you seek reassurance before you post your analysis?

I asked no questions, my analysis was not obvious, it does not relate to every other person his age group or any other, yet he says

Wow, thanks a lot, your answer is really worth a thought, since things have happened that match your description.

Only Tenshi knows the answer the answer to this one.

Meanwhile, there is no reason to suppose that one dream sequence relates to purely one dilemma, it could contain many elements relating to various emotional dilemmas (as experienced in the waking state by the dreamer) all fused together to make a confused picture. Imagine fusing, vanity with family conflict with exam stress etc. This is why a dream can't be viewed so obviously as it's immediate impression, but rather needs each element looked at individually, the presentation and context of that element and the relationship it may have with other elements.

For example, dreaming of swimming in the ocean does not fortell a trip to the beach. That is obvious, yet the whole scene is only relevant for the overall feeling the scene creates. Dreams are full of metaphor. What is the metaphor for beach, sand, see, sun, swimming, calm water v rough water, dark sky v blue sky, silence v noise.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Mr A

the major problem with your analysis is, it applies to evryone I know and possibly the vast majority of people that I do not. Pretty much all young people are body conscious. Thus you ask any of them " are you body conscious?' the answer will be yes.

.... Well, for a start off I didn't at any point actually ask him a question. I told him an answer - that answer being that, if asked and being honest and objective, would it be fair to say that Tenshi would describe their own sense of self image positively - the answer to which I already disclosed as knowing.

That's a different approach to take in method from yourself, I know. But with good reason - never take anything at face value, most especially including ones own impressions.

If you're setting out to interpret correctly what another persons conscious and subconscious mind is actually meaning via a dream it's vitally important that one adopts a method of establishing that what the "reader" is picking up on is actually the subjects own mind set and not simply ones own preconceptions being transfered onto what one believes to be the subjects.

The only way one can do that and establish such as being in anyway accurate is by testing ones impressions against the actual subject to see how well ones understanding in practice actually measures up - because without doing so, one can easily go off at the deep end and miss the mark entirely.

Take your hypothesis as used here as an example: you're presuming that I, in asking at all, put forward a generalised open question. Had you checked to confirm this initial hypothesis you would have found that a: in practice, as I've said, I put forward an already drawn conclusion that if asked Tenshi would, were the question actually put to them, they would indeed disclose that they held a realistically positive attitude towards their general physical appearance (not at all the expectation your hypothesis leads you to assume to be the case in your argument).

And secondly, b I equally disclose that in terms of my initial impressions I actually have no idea whatsoever regarding Tenshi's age or infact gender - my initial impressions pegged, to my mind at anyrate, Tenshi as being at the very least possibly five years older than he actually is and, as far as I was aware at the time, possibly a woman...

I had actually no way of knowing one way or the other without actually asking.

Without doing so, I'd be running the risk of doing what it is you're doing here: basing hypothesis on merely ones own assumptions and translating those onto the situation at hand.

In this case, I believe, a question of methods...

You have to remember ToR, first and foremost - that you're not actually reading anybody's actual dream here - you're reading their own recollection of events as they themselves appear to recall them. On a certain level, indeed, the subject very much does know full well what the dream they had actually means to them - but in electing to deal with whatever issue in the form of a dream in the first instance, this doesn't necessarily mean they actually want other people to actually know what's going on inside their heads.

In the quote you give:

Originally Posted by Tenshi
Wow, thanks a lot, your answer is really worth a thought, since things have happened that match your description.

Are you 100% certain that what, in the context of your referring to it, Tenshi's actually saying here is what you actually think he's saying?

He really is an awfully polite sort, y'know....

A

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Are you 100% certain that what, in the context of your referring to it, Tenshi's actually saying here is what you actually think he's saying?

He really is an awfully polite sort, y'know....

A

likewise

 

[Mr Anonymous]

... Oh, I assure you. He's giving me a wide birth, old stick. Can't say as I blame him....

 

[Tenshi]

Hahahaha, your dialogue made me laugh several times, but before I go on explaining why, I'd like to appologise for the late response. My internet connection did not allow me any different.
Yes, so as I was saying, I had to laugh, especially at the remark "He really is an awfully polite sort, y'know....". Well, while this doesn't mismatch the truth (At least i'm trying to be that), my statement about your interpretations as being in a great way correct was also true, since both the "rejection of physical enhancement" and the "injustice to a person" observations are also correct.
But then again... to end your fight and maybe start again a rational, fact-based discussion... are these both statements not something which could fit on to anybody? Who doesn't have an oppinion on his physical appearence? Which one of you or, as matter of fact, any human living, has not done an injustice affecting a person close to him?
I see both your ideeas hidden somewhere between the lines in my dream, and I agree with both, but accusing each-other of "universality" in words is inappropriate, since none of you has figured out something more deeper than shallow water in the dream. Could this simply be because of the superficial nature of dreams? Do dreams only seem complicated, are in fact only empty hulls not going any deeper than the view of things, not from a private, by own-experiences and near relations influenced point but from an universal point of view?
Once again I appologise for the late answer.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Tenshi to answer your question simply

I and no one in my cirlce has recently done an in justice to someone which is causing great repercussions, problems of conscience and hostility around them. Maybe in their past or in their future but not right now. Your dream relates to what was happenning for you at that time. So if you are having to relate to a past event that is NOT bothering you or causing you problems now (to relate to the anlysis I gave) then the analysis I gave you is incorrect.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Hahahaha, your dialogue made me laugh several times, but before I go on explaining why, I'd like to appologise for the late response. My internet connection did not allow me any different.
Yes, so as I was saying, I had to laugh, especially at the remark "He really is an awfully polite sort, y'know...."

... If it's any consolation, that particular line made me smile also. Kind of why the saying it, I should imagine....

Likely have to be brief here, not merely for the refreshing change of it - buggering off for a week or so. This question: "Could this simply be because of the superficial nature of dreams?" Good one, perceptive. They often can be, usually are. I'll give you an example:

A girl writes of a troubling dream she's had. In it she see's herself in the courtyard of what appears to be her old school, the structure of which is glass fronted as she recalls it and surrounds the courtyard. She's chained between two posts set in front of some sort of alter type affair, looks reminiscent of a stone bird bath - but what dominates the scene is a human figure, female, half witch-like down the one side. Monstrous. In one of the classrooms two girls huddle together in fear...

At this point she looses track of what happens exactly, but she remembers herself standing before the stone alter structure, wringing her hands, saying to herself over and over - "It was you. It was supposed to be you..."

Up until this last she relays the entire account third person, descriptive. The last recollection is the only thing she writes first person.

What does it mean?

Her younger sister stitched her up over the washing-up the night she had the dream. No word of a lie, it's actually what happened to her.

The dream touches on and illustrates various aspects of her domestic life, her family relationships, various aspects of the emotional issues which underly an actually on going situation - but the dream as relayed actually boils down to a very specific, hugely mundane (one would assume) event that actually transpired.

Little sis', breaking her word and, apparently once again, not pulling her weight around the house.

Though indeed, though what prompts one to dream in the first place may be, and often is, entirely of itself something ordinary, something mundane, something completely of the ordinary - because there's non of the usual emotional and perceptual censorship going on in there - one derives considerably more, and more importantly, completely disclosing insight into a persons actual situation, personality and emotional landscape than often times one wouldn't deliberately choose to broadcast to all and sundry.

Your dream, specifically, isn't about any deep dark emotional or psychological secrets. You're a little bit concerned about the notion that you actually going ahead and doing something more to work on your physique smacks a little reminiscent of the sort of person you yourself wouldn't want to be seen as - if you want the gratuitous Uncle Anonymous Advices routine: you're fine. You know it. Any misgivings you may have about the matter, they're your own and, not even deep down but right there on the surface, you know that too.

... Tell me something more about the one you had about being gored to death by a cow, and possibly we'd have something psychologically actually reviling going on here: but failing that, this particular instance has been nothing more than a light, frothy, as-soon-as-think-it-gone sort of affair.

I know that you know it's right, if that's any use to you - and if the workings out as given point to any particular direction you'd like to go further in, be happy to chuck m'happence worth in the kitty if you think its any use.

But for this instance, one can only deal with what's there. Over thinking a thing, bound to go all over the place. If one must think of these things at all, think of them as what they actually are - literal, visual transliterations of thoughts, idea's, experiences and the emotional content of what goes with that.

Love to stay and chat more, but literally, I really do have to be out of the door.

A

Oh, and ToR? It's because she not only confirmed that the events I relayed actually happened the way I called it - it's because she admitted equally to being more than just a trifle freaked. Wasn't just saying it either. Girl in question had been a long standing, highly active member at the board where it all took place. She never once posted after that again.

Funny old world, coincidence....