Supremacism and Priority: Republicans and the American Right Wing

I think it is more reasonable to see these people as misinformed victims (they do mostly seem fairly inarticulate and dim when they are interviewed) than as "bad".

This is a generational problem, Exchemist.

Why is it that, in the United States, whenever the people associated with our traditional heritage do all sorts of injurious damage, we're supposed to excuse them?

Here's a version I've expressed before↗: The need to cast American conservatives as some sort of victims is absurd because this goes back thirty years on one part, over forty years for another, fifty years to yet another, sixty years by what works out to be significant measure, seventy years brings us 'round a circle, or eighty a slightly larger circle.

Misinformed? Yeah. Fairly inarticulate and dim? Yeah. Bur more a whoopsie than "bad"? Okay. Explain it to the dead. Explain it to the victims: Yes, they lynched your son, but the lynchers are the real victims, here.

Another way↗ to put it: The romanticization of the American right as tragic victims can only pretend to make any sense if history is tabula rasa.

Think of it this way: Republicans are behaving so badly, simply describing their behavior moves some to defend them by accusing others↗ of "political rhetoric, intending to enrage those of a non-Republican political persuasion", even when they're already aware↗ the description is accurate.

There is, I confess, a certain stupidity in running around these rightist circles. For instance, there is a telling that paints Trump voters as victims who are lied to by billionaires, but↗: Inasmuch as we might consider right-wing media as a culprit, these are consenting, even demanding consumers. So, sure, we might think of a "few strongly right-wing media outlets … owned by conservative billionaires who are willing to tell lies to make even more billions", but it's not like they had to invent a consumer base.

The juxtaposition of Trump supporters as beleaguered, misinformed victims against some manner of badness doesn't work because this precedes Trump, and will continue after him. I've been through this how many times, now, and it's the sort of thing those who make excuses for these people just don't want to countenance. Misinformed? Sure. Lied to? Sure. Victims? Well, how do you mean? As I explained to another version of this simplistic excuse:

"Bad peple to the core"? Consider actor Wallace Shawn, reflecting on the lessons of his life. If he suggests, "Maybe they didn't want to be gentle or kind," the point is that it's still a maybe. Or, to reiterate my take:

• Antisociality: The cruelty, as [Adam] Serwer puts it, is the point. This isn't a new idea. Wallace Shawn's sense of "maybe" is, as he recognizes, a question of perspective; it is hard to accept that so many of our American neighbors really would be so cruel. Nor, in those classifications, is it simply "us" who find it so unbelievable; this wells up from American traditionalism, so "we" are also taught into these perspectives, and even "they" recoil at the prospect of their own cruelty, hatred, and sin.​

It is hard to accept that so many of our neighbors really would be so cruel. Or, as you summarize, "I guess it's simpler for some to try to blame all the Trump supporters for being bad people to the core. Because that requires less thinking, I guess."

And it's important to reiterate: Even "they" recoil.

†​

Note the thread title: "Supremacism and priority". There are various tellings by which focusing on supremacism is somehow unfair to Republicans and conservatives. None of these, however, recognize the history, that this behavior is fifty, sixty years old; even eighty, now that we must countenance the prospect of Nazis at Madison Square Garden.

It is, then, important to observe priority: It's one thing to suggest↗ the majority of Trump voters have other priorities, but↑ supremacism has been an integral part of the conservative pitch, its most durable appeal, pretty much the whole time I've been voting. Moreover, that period includes Republicans creating other problems they might later complain about, like declining real wages, tax problems, and falling educational standards. And you'd think they might want to fix that stuff, but every time we have a chance, nope, sorry, we have to talk about what's wrong with women, or gay people, or "Mexicans", and so on. Over the years, as a matter of priority, we can see what is important to these voters. An NYT columnist wags↗ that liberals "should think a little more deeply about the enduring sources of [Trump's] appeal", but↑ even that argument invests the enduring appeal in the voters, not Trump.

Three years ago↗, we considered whether Trumpism was fading, and an important point persists: Inasmuch as Trumpism is a brand experience, and the underlying product it is and represents existed before, and will continue in the marketplace, the components of that underlying product are potsherds fashioned into vessels of bitter and poisonous draught. That people sympathize with this or that potsherd eventually adds up to the next iteration.

That is, over and over, no matter what else is going on, the priorities these voters continue to focus on are the supremacism and conspiracism, i.e., "racism or sexism or any of those other bad things", as such, or, "racist white supremacist child sex advocates", as the straw man has it.

†​

So, sure, misinformed? Inarticulate? Stupid? Sure, these are circumstances we must consider.

But let us look at a related question: Judgment.

In a roomful of religious people, this might be an easier explanation; in a roomful of atheists, it's kind of a gamble.

For Christians, judgment has ritual significance, but the difference between faith and practice can be messy. That is, the psychology of judgment and forgiveness is also self-empowering: One has judged, and found another lacking, and in their magnanimity the one forgives. It's actually kind of arrogant and, in my lifetime, disruptive and corrosive.

But there is also an argument, within Christianity, that judgment belongs to God alone.

Leave them to arguing the either-or for themselves.

For the rest of us, the answer is that it need not be that kind of judgment. Rather, there is a simple assessment: ¿Does the danger persist?

And in this case, the answer is yes.

That's the problem.

†​

So, it's just that whether it's you, or James R, or the NYT columnist, there is a simplistic presupposition in effect about what liberal critics are doing wrong. It's not just that you're standing up for something, but that you're arguing against something else, and the problem is that argument against is fallacious.

Thus, as I've explained before:

• Start with the basic idea that it doesn't feel good to be told you're wrong, and for most people feels even worse when facts affirm that they were wrong.

• For American conservatives, that's the last thirty years. At least.

• It's one thing to imagine thirty years of persistent invalidation, but something also goes here about self-infliction.​

Like the fallacy about "merely dismissing the views of people who voted for [Trump] as obviously crazy, or motivated by racism or sexism or any of those other bad things"; as I've pointed out, repeatedly, that's just make-believe. Or, sure, if we presuppose a circumstantial vacuum, it sounds like a reasonable proposition. But we're not in a circumstantial vacuum. If the idea of "merely dismissing" has any validity, it is found in conservatives who are tired of being told they're wrong about pretty much everything, but have no solid argument to fall back on. Please understand: When we strip away all of the political, emotional, or subjective language, the fact remains that someone was wrong about something. And it's true, after thirty years, at least, of losing because they're wrong, it probably feels to conservatives like that's all anyone knows about them.

And as I keep trying to make clear: It keeps coming up because they keep asking us to consider it. At some point, downstream expectations of some sort of reset, some manner of setting history aside and learning nothing so that we don't hurt conservative feelings, are nothing more than insisting on make-believe.

It's akin to Beauchamp↗ on a free speech debate in the U.S. a few years back: What was at stake was not anyone's right to speech, but, rather, their right to freedom from disapprobation. Or Spiers on cancel culture, "apparently defined as any sort of consequences for displays of bigotry that happen to be driven by social opprobrium".

And conservatives get upset because they heard the criticism last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. But that's the thing, they keep bringing it, so they keep hearing about it.

And this priority stands out, i.e., "supremacism and priority". These are the things that are more important than the other reasons; these are the priorities they assert over and over again.
 
Why is it that, in the United States, whenever the people associated with our traditional heritage do all sorts of injurious damage, we're supposed to excuse them?

Here's a version I've expressed before↗: The need to cast American conservatives as some sort of victims is absurd because this goes back thirty years on one part, over forty years for another, fifty years to yet another, sixty years by what works out to be significant measure, seventy years brings us 'round a circle, or eighty a slightly larger circle.

Misinformed? Yeah. Fairly inarticulate and dim? Yeah. Bur more a whoopsie than "bad"? Okay. Explain it to the dead. Explain it to the victims: Yes, they lynched your son, but the lynchers are the real victims, here.

Another way↗ to put it: The romanticization of the American right as tragic victims can only pretend to make any sense if history is tabula rasa.
Woody Guthrie's guitars were emblazoned with the slogan, "This machine kills fascists." Guthrie was not by any stretch a right-wing war-monger. Rather, he simply recognized that there are instances wherein there is no possibility for rational discourse.

What do you do with that? I don't know, but while efforts towards diplomacy are laudable and, generally, optimal, they are not always prudent. And sometimes they're apt to get someone killed. More importantly, no matter one's course of action it is always imperative that you recognize and acknowledge precisely what it is that you are dealing with.

Some years ago, I was visiting a friend in Pittsburgh who owned a coffee shop. A women walks in, looks at the menu board, and declares, "Those are Jew prices." (For the record, the prices may have been set by a Jew, but they were not Jew prices, whatever it is one takes that to mean.)

What do you do with that? It's not quite the same thing as bros marching and chanting, "Jews will not replace us", but is it substantively different? And even if it is, does that really matter all that much?

Dialogue is great and it is always preferable. It's also a privilege and a luxury that not all are equally accorded. (And sometimes, of course, it will get you killed.)

The right has not changed much over the previous decades/half-century/century. Ronald Reagan was just John Wayne, minus the acting chops and film-making acumen (which Wayne genuinely did possess: John Ford gave him a job in props when he was still a teen, and Wayne paid attention.) Reagan was just a bigoted asshole with nary an ounce of compassion nor any inclination to understand anything that was foreign to him. He was (generally, at least in public) more civil than Trump and was more partial genocidal ventures abroad, but otherwise the differences are insubstantial.

There is also perhaps more cowardice amongst the right than there has been in the past. Like Tim Pool trying to worm his way out of his debate with Sam Seder next week. I don't know what the hell is really going on there, but I think it's fair to say that Pool is scared shitless over getting his ass beaten by a scrawny Jew--and this time, an actual Jew, not just one of the many he has called "Jews."

I don't know whether the left has truly changed or the numbers have just gotten smaller, but something has gone awry. But the inability or reluctance for many to recognize the threats before them is disconcerting.

Edit: This Seder/Pool fight has the potential to be the biggest pay-per-view event in decades, and apparently the commentary by Joe Rogan, and all his friends who also just look like giant thumbs, costs extra.. Actually, I just made that all up.
 
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There is, I confess, a certain stupidity in running around these rightist circles. For instance, there is a telling that paints Trump voters as victims who are lied to by billionaires, but↗: Inasmuch as we might consider right-wing media as a culprit, these are consenting, even demanding consumers. So, sure, we might think of a "few strongly right-wing media outlets … owned by conservative billionaires who are willing to tell lies to make even more billions", but it's not like they had to invent a consumer base.
This is not restricted to "rightist circles" or "right-wing media".

What are both presidential campaigns spending a lot of their donation money on? Advertising.

Why do they do that? They do it because advertisements influence people's votes. They influence people about who to vote for. They also scare them into voting just to make sure that the other guy (or girl) doesn't get elected.

Advertising must work. Otherwise, why spend hundreds of millions of dollars on it?

Oh, did I mention money? Who pays for political advertising? In part, it is "ordinary" people who come to feel that they ought to chip in to a political campaign. (Why do they feel that? One reason is that advertisements ask them to. You see the circle here?) But it is also the billionaires with vested interests in one side or the other being in power.

The billionaires are in the fortunate position of already having lots of cash to splash around, including to political campaigns. How did they get their wads of dough? The answer, for the richest people in the world these days, is that they own and run media outlets.

If you imagine that the billionaire-controlled modern media is not able to swing votes one way or another, you're out of touch and you really need to wake yourself up.

There is, at this time, still a discernable and important difference between what is often referred to as "left-wing media" and the "right-wing media". Right now, the left-wing media is still, for the most part, reality-based. In contrast, the right-wing media is, for the most part, willing to just put out outright lies, distortions of the truth. Both "sides" are selective in what they choose to report, and both sides are more and more adding political "spin" to their reporting.

Some people have argued that every US citizen has access to both left-wing and right-wing media, and that it is only the stupid who limit themselves to the offerings from only one of the two political camps. On the contrary, I would argue that the current media landscape is set up in such a way as to drive consumers to one political extreme or the other. One has to be actively paying close attention to the media in order to even be aware of how facts are being spun to those on the other side of the political divide. A lot of people assume that their preferred "news" network is the one whose point of view is most trustworthy, while all others should be viewed at best with suspicion. Very often, this perception is amplified by other trusted opinions, such as those of ones work colleagues, friends, family or neighbours, all of whom probably watch most of the same media.

The media (including "social media"), and those who control it, are highly significant players in politics. Much of today's media is not about facts. It is about opinions and perceptions. The media both follows opinions and "helps" to shape them.
 
If you imagine that the billionaire-controlled modern media is not able to swing votes one way or another, you're out of touch and you really need to wake yourself up.
This is your own strawman invention. I don't think that anyone has ever even suggested any such thing. Moreover, it completely ignores the underlying point (which, weirdly, you quoted but completely ignored): "It's not like they had to invent a consumer base."

It's very easy to take the rather elitist and privileged position that suggests that people simply don't know how to change the channel, while ignoring the abundance of data and research that show that people damn well do know how to change the channel. They know how to circumvent the algorithms when it suits them; when it's some asshole spewing racist shit, they choose not to. We all live in our own bubbles, but if we've got any agency whatsoever and even an ounce of intellect, we also know that there is a world outside these bubbles.

Plenty of stupid out there, and the best we can hope for on that front is some measure of self-awareness. Though I'm not counting on Greg Gutfeld figuring out that he is neither smart nor funny anytime soon. The badness? Education, dialogue, life experience--all great, that is so long as the requisite humility and acknowledgement of privilege also accompanies. IOW you don't tell a black guy or a rape victim that they ought to trust the police and abandon their preconceived notions about them (informed by history and life experience)--you may very well have that luxury, but clearly not everyone does. You also shouldn't pretend that said badness is something simply foisted upon them by the billionaire-controlled media, and that said bad people probably have other wonderful qualities that have absolutely no bearing upon the issues at hand.


Edit: Essentially, it comes down to this:
That's not a view that will ever allow you to have a useful political conversation with anybody on the "other side". You're just closing off all dialogue with that.

If you want to just write people off, that's on you and you have every right to take that attitude. But I don't know how you plan to convince a swinging voter to join your side. And your side needs those people.

First off, I've had plenty of conversations with people with whom I very strongly disagree--sometimes at a safe distance and sometimes at a not so safe distance. I've even managed to persuade some to reconsider their biases. Of course, I generally engage with those whom, by most indications, are amenable to reason. As far as those who are not? Kinda pointless and sometimes quite dangerous.

Your comment above comes across as incredibly naive. Were I to specualte, I'd posit that you grew up in a fairly comfortable middle-class, or even upper middle-class or affluent, environment. Surrounded by people who were reasonably well-educated and, generally, not desperate. I'd also hazard that you've not walked into many rooms wherein your hair raised and you immediately sussed that you'd have to do some serious egg-shell walking and acrobatics in order to navigate this environment safely. How far off am I?

Most people aren't all bad, but plenty are bad enough. And, sure, they've probably got some finer qualities, as well. Donald Trump is genuinely funny at times (his Marco Rubio bit is good: succinct and to the point), but he's also a serial rapist, a virulent racist, and doesn't know jack shit about business or economics. I truly do not give two shits about whatever finer qualities he may possess. For all intents and purposes--and with respect to anything and everything that matters and which he may impact--je's simply a bad dude. Full stop.
 
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That's not a view that will ever allow you to have a useful political conversation with anybody on the "other side". You're just closing off all dialogue with that.

If you want to just write people off, that's on you and you have every right to take that attitude. But I don't know how you plan to convince a swinging voter to join your side. And your side needs those people.

Just expanding a bit upon my previous response (I'm outside the edit window). I've been around here a while. In your experience, when I strongly disagree with somebody, do I tend to just go, "Eh, fuck that--I'm out"? I have done that, a time or two--when the futility becomes abundantly clear, but generally I do not.

If I'm gonna do that, it's a decision made after a fair amount of consideration.
It's very easy to lump "Trump supporters" into one big basket, then to start stereotyping based on the worst examples of the kind. But you can do that with any group of people. It's fundamentally lazy and it lacks any nuance. It also demonises some people who might be able to be argued around to a more sensible political alignment.
Is it easy? Not really. I've looked for the non-worst examples and I haven't turned up much. There's Zizek (who can't vote because he's not American) and others with more of an accelerationist approach, but their numbers are few.

How about those who claim that they only support Trump cuz "the economy"? If they're familiar with the word "economy", then they've probably got some sense that 200 or 2000 or 3 million percent tariffs (Trump has stated that the actual number doesn't matter, like any good business guy) are an idiotic source for revenue. They also probably know that a guy who is handed 400 million dollars and goes into bankruptcy seven times doesn't know shit about business.

How about those who are ohhhh so concerned about illegal immigration? If they even know the word "immigration", it is very likely that they know that several industries, and agriculture and food production, in particular, would collapse were these "illegals" to just disappear. Then there's the mass deportations, family separation, etc.--you support that stuff, then you're just a racist piece of shit. Or a bad person in my accounting.

Like I've said at least a thousand times over the previous decade, if anyone has got some evidence for these quality people who allegedly support Trump, I'm all ears.
 
Absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence--but it sure as hell ain't evidence of presence, either.

I think I've heard a few people say something or other to that effect before. But, yeah, that's just "scientific" nonsense or something.
 
Here is a helpful thought experiment. It doesn't have to be just a thought experiment. It can literally be done but just to make it easier, in this case consider it to be a thought experiment.

What is lacking here and in politics is open communications. Therefore when talking about one side (any side of any subject) before you rant as usual, and you can still do that, but first describe the situation as you think the other side sees it.

This forces you to look at things from their viewpoint. Write down their point of view as you see it and keep making changes until they agree that your description is accurate.

If both sides do that before getting into the usual rant, there probably won't be a rant that follows. What would follow would generally be a more enlightened conversation.

James, for example, was marginally going for this approach but he didn't get the buy-in from the other side so he misstated it. As I read his approach it was to say that we need to look at things from the other person's point of view even though we all know that the other person is wrong, low IQ and easily mislead.

That's what happens when you don't get the other side's buy-in. You aren't accurate in what their viewpoint actually is.

Most of what we get here, in general, is just emotional people talking past each other and misrepresenting each side's actual views.

It's cherry picking a true fact and ignoring the ones that aren't true.

The fact of the matter is that there are legitimate reasons that people can not like Harris but still vote for her policies and the same can be said of Trump. Most people, on both sides, don't actually "like" Trump.

Trump is a marketing guy, that's about it. He isn't knowledgeable. He is an "entertainer". Some people's gut feeling is that they will be better off under a Trump administration.

Most people don't have any great confidence in Harris either. She didn't do well last time she ran for President. Biden didn't even do well until the SC primary saved his campaign.

Many people don't like the idea of a wealth tax, spending programs while watching the debt only go up, etc.

People don't like to see Trump talk about tariffs, if they know anything about tariffs. Some crazy ideas are discounted, figuring that they will never get through Congress.

People do worry about the increase in urban crime since Covid and much of that is blamed on progressive policies. People do understand that immigrants don't commit crime at any higher rates than anyone else. That is true. What is also true is that much of the crime that does exit in urban areas is made worse by a small percentage of the immigrant population as a whole but it can be a much larger percentage in a particular urban area. Both things can be true.

Again, more constructive conversation would occur if the thought experiment above was done first.
 
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The fact of the matter is that there are legitimate reasons that people can not like Harris but still vote for her policies and the same can be said of Trump.
Trump doesn't really have any policies. He will do whatever he thinks makes him popular, from moment to moment. If that means popular with Vladimir Putin, he'll do it. If it means popular with white supremacists, he'll do it.

Because Trump has such a need for people to like him, he can sometimes be talked into doing things that other people want him to do. That's one reason why the Trumpy Republican party is willing to put him up as its representative. The present Republican Party is not a conversative party. It is a revolutionary party whose base is made up of people who want to tear down the entire system and start from scratch. They think that a Strong Man will get that job done for them. Their mistake is that the Strong Man won't do it for them. He'll do it for him. Most of them won't see any benefits - actually the opposite, because that's what always happens when you replace a democracy with a fascist dictatorship.

The fact of Trump the man ought to rule out the possibility that any sane American (other than a crony) would want to vote for him in the hope that he will implement policies that they'd prefer. But many Americans are blissfully unaware of how democracies collapse and how autocrats come into power.
 
Trump doesn't really have any policies. He will do whatever he thinks makes him popular, from moment to moment. If that means popular with Vladimir Putin, he'll do it. If it means popular with white supremacists, he'll do it.

Because Trump has such a need for people to like him, he can sometimes be talked into doing things that other people want him to do. That's one reason why the Trumpy Republican party is willing to put him up as its representative. The present Republican Party is not a conversative party. It is a revolutionary party whose base is made up of people who want to tear down the entire system and start from scratch. They think that a Strong Man will get that job done for them. Their mistake is that the Strong Man won't do it for them. He'll do it for him. Most of them won't see any benefits - actually the opposite, because that's what always happens when you replace a democracy with a fascist dictatorship.

The fact of Trump the man ought to rule out the possibility that any sane American (other than a crony) would want to vote for him in the hope that he will implement policies that they'd prefer. But many Americans are blissfully unaware of how democracies collapse and how autocrats come into power.
It didn't collapse last time and I don't think it will collapse this time, if he should win. I don't think he will win however.
 
It didn't collapse last time and I don't think it will collapse this time, if he should win.
Last time, Trump didn't have a plan. No doubt, he will continue to try to bluff his way along, no matter what happens. But this time around, the people around him are better organised and more determined.

Another part of the problem is that people like you don't believe that he will do what he has said he will do if he is elected.
I don't think he will win however.
I don't think he'll win, either. But the contest should be nowhere near as close as it is (if we are to believe the polls).
 
Last time, Trump didn't have a plan. No doubt, he will continue to try to bluff his way along, no matter what happens. But this time around, the people around him are better organised and more determined.

Another part of the problem is that people like you don't believe that he will do what he has said he will do if he is elected.

I don't think he'll win, either. But the contest should be nowhere near as close as it is (if we are to believe the polls).
No, you would think not but we don't control how people vote.
 
On Futility and Priority

I've been around here a while. In your experience, when I strongly disagree with somebody, do I tend to just go, "Eh, fuck that--I'm out"? I have done that, a time or two--when the futility becomes abundantly clear, but generally I do not.

If I'm gonna do that, it's a decision made after a fair amount of consideration.

We might take the moment to consider how much of these arguments are rooted in uncertainty and make-believe. To the one, these arguments only respond to their own straw man ("If you want to just …", "shouldn't be merely …"). To the other, when you cut through all that, what remains, more often than not, is ignorance and maybe ("I don't know how you plan …", "… some people who might …").

I just went through a version of it in another thread; someone asked if I had a problem with thinking, and went on to explain↗ what they said was a sarcastic response according to their own straw man, and skipping out on discussion↗ of the straw man.

I sometimes wonder if part of the problem is that these folks don't recognize those elements of the discussion, as if they're reciting a talking point they don't understand and thus simply wouldn't know the difference.

It's like Poe's Law: Is it calculated fallacy, or zealous article of faith?¹

To wit, a distal meta-analysis of Trump voters↗ that relies on "might" and "probably": "Some of them might be a bit racist. Some of them might be white supremacists. But probably not the majority. The majority has other reasons." The thing is, that people have "other reasons" is a truism. Look at the uncertainty, that "some of them might be", "but probably not the majority". And then consider the reality this election cycle presents.

So, again, anyone can have "other reasons"; the question remains which "reasons" get what "priority".

Is it easy? Not really. I've looked for the non-worst examples and I haven't turned up much.

It's an easy generalization from half a world away↗. And it is also an easy article of faith. We cannot possibly ever give enough consideration to conservative behavior↗ to overcome this article of faith.

Toward that, when he makes an affirmative assertion, observe how much of that either misses the point of, or ignores entirely, history. There are a number of arguments, as such, nearly platitudes, that sound just fine in a vacuum, but do not necessarily correspond to anything real. Those three paragraphs↑ about lumping Trump supporters into one big basket are just a rehash of stuff he doesn't seem to understand↗, or just skips over, or something. As I've told him, before, such romanticization of the American right as tragic victims can only pretend to make any sense if history is tabula rasa; it's not a matter of making assumptions, because this circumstance did not arise ex nihilo, this condition did not emanate from mystery.

This is just another go 'round the hamster wheel.

Ceteris paribus is not in effect, and at some point, we might wonder at the insistence according to what priority.
____________________

Notes:

¹ There is a proverbial third way, which comes down to not being -ist, but, rather, so mad at someone else that one is willing to go there just to spite another; but it's also true, such episodes would fall very much within the range of "priority", which, as the thread title makes clear, is part of the point.​

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Matt Wuerker, Politico, 28 October 2024
 
On Futility and Priority



We might take the moment to consider how much of these arguments are rooted in uncertainty and make-believe. To the one, these arguments only respond to their own straw man ("If you want to just …", "shouldn't be merely …"). To the other, when you cut through all that, what remains, more often than not, is ignorance and maybe ("I don't know how you plan …", "… some people who might …").

I just went through a version of it in another thread; someone asked if I had a problem with thinking, and went on to explain↗ what they said was a sarcastic response according to their own straw man, and skipping out on discussion↗ of the straw man.

I sometimes wonder if part of the problem is that these folks don't recognize those elements of the discussion, as if they're reciting a talking point they don't understand and thus simply wouldn't know the difference.

It's like Poe's Law: Is it calculated fallacy, or zealous article of faith?¹

To wit, a distal meta-analysis of Trump voters↗ that relies on "might" and "probably": "Some of them might be a bit racist. Some of them might be white supremacists. But probably not the majority. The majority has other reasons." The thing is, that people have "other reasons" is a truism. Look at the uncertainty, that "some of them might be", "but probably not the majority". And then consider the reality this election cycle presents.

So, again, anyone can have "other reasons"; the question remains which "reasons" get what "priority".



It's an easy generalization from half a world away↗. And it is also an easy article of faith. We cannot possibly ever give enough consideration to conservative behavior↗ to overcome this article of faith.

Toward that, when he makes an affirmative assertion, observe how much of that either misses the point of, or ignores entirely, history. There are a number of arguments, as such, nearly platitudes, that sound just fine in a vacuum, but do not necessarily correspond to anything real. Those three paragraphs↑ about lumping Trump supporters into one big basket are just a rehash of stuff he doesn't seem to understand↗, or just skips over, or something. As I've told him, before, such romanticization of the American right as tragic victims can only pretend to make any sense if history is tabula rasa; it's not a matter of making assumptions, because this circumstance did not arise ex nihilo, this condition did not emanate from mystery.

This is just another go 'round the hamster wheel.

Ceteris paribus is not in effect, and at some point, we might wonder at the insistence according to what priority.
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Notes:

¹ There is a proverbial third way, which comes down to not being -ist, but, rather, so mad at someone else that one is willing to go there just to spite another; but it's also true, such episodes would fall very much within the range of "priority", which, as the thread title makes clear, is part of the point.

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Matt Wuerker, Politico, 28 October 2024

Do you admit to the legitimacy of any opposing view (to your own) on any subject?
 
Perhaps We Should Take a Moment

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So, Right Wing Watch↱ explains:

Floyd Brown, a Christian nationalist activist who is serving as Kari Lake's senatorial campaign manager, says the Biden/Harris administration is so hostile to Christianity that he "wouldn't be surprised if they go ahead and outlaw spreading the Gospel in America."

The brief transcript, from an appearance with Pastor Dave Bryan:

Brown: This administration is so committed to censorship, and so committed to, you know, uh, suppressing Christian and conservative ideas, I wouldn't be surprised if they go ahead and outlaw spreading the Gospel in America.

Pastor: That's right. January 6 was the trial run. They won't stop at anything.

†​

Let's just review a few↗:

• They're doing it to themselves; they're setting themselves up for a revolt … In other words, if we look at the politicians and other advocates warning of insurrection, it is their followers who will revolt. They are not so much warning the rest of us that some sort of revolt will materialize; they are threatening to revolt. (2015↗)

• Remember that the hardliners start to make sense if we apply the presupposition that they are looking for an excuse to revolt. (2016↗)

• And that's what this is about; we're in the process of shedding a number of our supremacist traditions, and the supremacists are furious, armed, and itching for violence. We saw it as the tinfoil bloc prepared to have a revolt forced on them by the evil government because President Obama was going to "invade Texas" on behalf of Walmart and McDonald's. But they've been talking like this for years; they want open bloodshed, but they're patriotic Americans so they have to invent a reason to claim evil liberals forced them to. (2016↗)

• I think we're probably reasonably aware of my general sketch of a thesis that these people want some manner of violence and revolt … they have been agitating for a "necessary", "we had no choice", "y'all forced us to do this by making us defend ourselves" revolt pretty much from the outset. (2016↗)

• These people want flaming chaos. They want insurrection. But they pretend patriotism, so they need to imagine their revolt against ’Mer’kuh was forced on them by evil tyranny. (2017↗)

And, oh, hey, I found some other notes↗, including a reference from 2010↗:

• No, not all conservatives think this way, else there would already be blood in the streets; the revolution would already be underway. But, fundamentally, conservatives want a return to the very conditions that got us into the mess the United States now finds us in. And they've been muttering their way toward violence.

And that included another line from the 2015 example: They will revolt, but only because the government forced them to by violating their supremacy under law. They will revolt against the horror of equality under law.

Point being, do not pretend this stuff is somehow new.

†​

The difference 'twixt then and now is, of course, the January 6 insurrection. From those other notes, there was also this seditionist quote, via ITV: "We respect the law. We were good people. The government did this to us. We were normal, good, law-abiding citizens, and you guys did this to us!"

Once upon a time, it seemed well enough to leave crackpot preachers and their tinfoiler congregations to their self-loving conspiracism, but the difference 'twixt then and now is, of course, the Wednesday Putsch. Moreover, this is an electoral cycle in which Christian nationalism is making an explicit play for power, and a presidential candidate, indeed, a former U.S. President, is already kindling insurrectionist violence if he loses, and promising coercive violence if he wins.

And Floyd Brown is a professional propagandist running a U.S. Senate campaign. Arizona conservatives, this time around, decided to run with conspiracism and the proverbial crazy stuff.

And, no, that's not really new, either. A supremacist pitching conspiracist fighting words to conservative voters is, in fact, so not uncommon that one might start, after seeing it time and again, to think maybe it's something kind of important to the voters who keep coming back to rally 'round it.

Remember, Trump grew his vote in 2020; there is much to be learned from his vote totals↗ this cycle. And so it is in Arizona, or, really, with any of the returns we see.
____________________

Notes:

@RightWingWatch. "Floyd Brown, a Christian nationalist activist who is serving as Kari Lake's senatorial campaign manager, says the Biden/Harris administration is so hostile to Christianity that he 'wouldn't be surprise if they go ahead and outlaw spreading the Gospel in America.'" X. 28 October 2024. X.com. 29 October 2024. status/1850972160254149005

 
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