Sufi ?

Ha! :D

Chances are pretty bleak considering my history, but I will give it a fair shot. Why not? I have ruled out the large majority of religion...I might as well keep going until there are none left!

Seriously though...sufism does seem immensely more intelligent and tangible than other major religions, from what I have gathered. So who knows it will be interesting to check out regardless.

I know Tiassa had some stuff to say about sufism at some point in the past... maybe he will jump on and write an essay about what he thinks ;)
 
Inadequate

But I'm such an inadequate spokesman for Sufism; almost all of my exposure comes through the filter of Idries Shah, though I must say that I am intrigued at the way the idea of Sufism has slowly crept into my life. That, however, is another story for another day, but I first heard about Sufism in the early 1990s when a writer I knew listed "Sufi rhythms" in her back-page bio blurb; her co-author actually played drums in a band and liked Persian influences apparently. But I picked up my current Sufi kick during my time at Sciforums; I read Armstrong's A History of God, in which the mystical aspects of the Abramic monotheisms play compelling roles, and it's only been the last couple of years that I've devoted any time at all to learning anything about Sufism.

I'm actually preparing to delve into Nasrudin, Naqshbandi, and a few other prevailing ideas that impressed me. (I'm arguing with myself over what book to read next, and whether to take a flying leap and break my apronstring preference for Idries Shah.) But in the meantime, I will plug a couple of Shah's volumes: Sufi Thought and Action and The Dervish Tales, both by Octagon Press. Read those and you know as much about Sufism as I do: absolutely nothing ;)

Actually, I do know one thing about Sufism: I shall never be a Sufi. As a human creature, I have not yet come to any realization that I am capable of understanding its inner essences. Of course, I also inherently try to refuse such arrogance when it comes to mind, so maybe there's something to be said for that.

But I've been enjoying this topic so far inasmuch as it's being discussed at all. I tend to let those with more knowledge of proper Islam fill in a few cultural details that I don't have; it hasn't been my place to say a word until now.

But, with engraved invitation in hand, I'll raise a glass and join the party shortly. About what, I have no idea. But I need to smoke and read and seek a frequency.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Edit: I found an interesting old topic of mine which relates in the vaguest sense ... On the nature and purpose of religion ... I was looking for online references to an essay by Emir Ali Khan, and what do you know? There was my topic .... I'll keep looking for the essay itself.
 
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cheers mate. I'll definately check out those books.
you mentioned Naqshbandi, there's a sheikh Naqshbandi...is that the same fellow?
Also I was talking about Sheikh Nazim with Jihad, and was wondering if you'd heard of him??

I tend to let those with more knowledge of proper Islam fill in a few cultural details that I don't have; it
Click to expand...

I was always knowledgable about how little I knew about "proper Islam" (if such a thing can even be conceptualised)
but now i'm really aware of how little I know. I suppose I should feel bad about that...but I actually feel rather good,...knowing in myself that no matter how much u think u may or may not know...ultimately we "know" very little, hence the struggle to attain more knowledge should be a constant one.

All we need now are some hard core wahabi Muslims to tell us that this is all "shirk" and nonsense........;)
 
Sheikh Nazim

I actually have not heard of Sheikh Nazim, but Google is bursting with pages concerning his work; I see that he is Naqshbandi, which intrigues me. My primary exposure to Naqshbandi is a woefully scant essay by Gustav Schenk included in Sufi Thought and Action, though their role in the Dervish Tales collected by Shah stands out in my mind (I must find that volume ....)

In the meantime is this delightful message, from December, 2000, by Sheikh Najim ... Remarks of Maulana Sheikh Nazim al Haqqani, London, December 24, 2000.

I'll have to give him a read. Thanks much.
All their people blind through their souls, through their hearts, no one seeing which night which hour he has been born. It is so clear, we know but they are going not to know as long as they're putting Jesus Christ on cross and not bringing him down, they're not knowing this.
Click to expand...
:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
sheikh Nazim has a huge Darbar in North London, and he visits there most Ramadans. He gives the sermon after Jumma prayers and the place is absolutely packed. I visited the Darbar during Ramadan of 1993, because someone told me that the Sheikh conducts pvt consultations for people who wish to see him regarding various problems. I had a lot of major shit that needed to be sorted (health mainly). He couldnt help me, but it was a good experience none the less.
A close friend of mine actually went and spent time with him at his place in cyprus, so we might go and visit the North London Darbar this Ramadan, if the Sheikh is in town (and if he's still alive(!))....he must have been in his late 80's back in 1993.

I think I'm gonna call my friend...just to see if the Sheikh is still with us.....;)
 
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Buhd :

I thought it would be better if I would respond to your comments from http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23537&pagenumber=3 in here .

You wrote :

I think we've come to realise the semantical restrictions when conceptualising these things. The mere english word "worship" means jack shit, can't even compare with the inherent meaning of Ibadah.

I think it is much more than just a semantical restriction that is relevant . As I can see it you can have it 2 ways , you agree on the same concept and use different words , or you use the same words for different concepts .

I think there's much more going on than just a difference in words , I think its the concept itself that is questioned , I am absolutely convinced that my Arabic brothers and sisters have absolutely the same conventional understanding of things , I dont think they within the Ibadah they have an essential different understanding of Salaat than any Christian has the understanding of prayer , the only difference may be the subject of Salaat and prayer , something Christians translate into their trinity , while Muslims have made it into Allah ........ but is there an essential difference between the Allah the Muslims experience and the "father" of the trinity ? I think the big difference lies in getting rid of Jesus and the Holy Ghost , and using a different word for the concept the "father" stands for .

What I refuse is not the semantical concept of "worship" , its the essence of making yourself subject (in your mind) to a higher force other than existence itself . In Salaat , it looks like we are bowing down for "something" , and I dont bow for anything . You see , some-thing and any-thing are specific "things" that take their place through masse or whatever (what we might imagine) , and we value this "thing" by bowing for it . Allah isnt some-thing or any-thing , its everything . How can I bow for everything , I am part of everything , how can something that is is part of a greater whole to bow for the greater whole ? You can only bow for something else within the greater whole , not for the greater whole itself . How the hell are you gonna bow for yourself , for at least you are part of this greater whole .

In the entire concept and proces of Salaat everything has a fully logical reason , the specific order of what concepts are brought forth , the times , the physical excersize , evrything has a logical reason . To say "because Allah wants it so" is perfectly formulating the result , but not showing the calculation . And if you dont show caluclations you aint getting in any points .....

Do you know when Jibrail told the prohet that ALLAH had instructed him to tell the Ummah they have to perform salaat 50 times in one day, the Prophet immeadiately recognised human nature, and told Jibrail "Impossible" the ummah will never be able to do 50 times a day (no shit!!!) so there was a lot of tooing and froing...eventually the Prophet got it down to 5 a day,even then he said to Jibrail "still this will be hard for the Ummah, but I cannot go back to ALLAH and ask for a further reduction"

I didnt know (much I dont know) the story of this 5-50 , where does it accur ? But You do bring greatly forward the biggest problem I have with what we call these days religion . The conventional scripture interpertation for Islam as well as for Christianity as for Judaism is totally errorous . Im not only pointing it out as an errorous result , but most of all an errorous system of interperting and understanding (theological) scriptures , I believe the same errors are made in the study of ancient mythology and polytheistic religions (in contrast to for instance Buddhism or Taosim-Confucius ) . The errors deal with understanding it as this "story" of actual physical happening of things .

If you wish to direct me to the proper scripture manifesting this "story" you refer to , then we can brake it down into what actually is being said there . The litteral interpertations of this manifestation , I consider not just incorrect , but a serious prank , hilarious even . So hilarious you might "act it out" with some drama-group , actually thats what peoples did with the bible isnt it ? There are even movies about Mozes and his " I am that I am " (lol peoples stil dont get this one) ripping the sea apart for the Kemetians to drown in ........ what a joke :p .

Dont get me wrong , I dont deny historical value , not at all ....... but we need to seperate history from mythology , and seperate theology from mythology . That we we can start appreciating all 3 instead of mixing them up into religion for the theists , and science for atheists .

I dont think the reason for 5 Salaat deals with the fact that 50 (Allahs plan) was to much for Muhammad so now its 5 . Thats totally irrational , not because its "beyond reason" but because it doesnt fit in the logical picture people try to make it fit in .


well the religious leaders offer they're own interpretatons (wrong or rigth) but the essence of the Quran and Hadith remains untampered with,..hence we (Muslims) dont need religious leaders, or clergy at all (the fact that there are, is incdental)
I dont pay jack shit attention to religious leaders...any true scholar will tell u all one needs is contained in the Quran, and Hadith...so yes ur right "religious leaders" have no real bearing on your own path within deen...it's completely a personal journey.



well the religious leaders offer they're own interpretatons (wrong or rigth) but the essence of the Quran and Hadith remains untampered with,..hence we (Muslims) dont need religious leaders, or clergy at all (the fact that there are, is incdental)
I dont pay jack shit attention to religious leaders...any true scholar will tell u all one needs is contained in the Quran, and Hadith...so yes ur right "religious leaders" have no real bearing on your own path within deen...it's completely a personal journey.


No I dont agree with you here , the problem when you speak of leaders within "Deen" is "religious" leaders . Because that brings of to the question , what is religion to be lead by a leader ? A leader of Qu'ran ? But Qu'ran deals with entire Islam , and Islam =Deen ..... so a leader of the Qu'ran wouldnt be dealing with "religion" , but with Deen . Thats not a religious leader , thats a leader period .

But this all deals with this misunderstanding of what Islam is , and thats also the main point why there has been this problem with an Islamic state , because people wish to seperate matters .

But its not seperable , people think its seperable because they believe Islam is about worshipping their deity , and believing in this deity makes one turn further and further from the Deen . The same thing happened to Christianity and to Judaism , and it was good that it happened because their basis is wrong , it is good this happens in islam as well because the base is wrong also .

But if you would understand it correctly , you would understand that there is nothing to seperate , you cant seperate state from religion , because there isnt religion . Fist people want to get rid of the Islamic state , because they dont believe having an Islamic state is essential for their worship of their deity . Then they dont wanna go to mosques anymore , because they dont feel its relevant for worshipping their deity to do so . Then they will even stop reading scriptures , because they dont feel that such is relevant for their worship of their deity .......... and in the end all you have left is indeed this true deity-worship , is nothing is left anymore . And I understand why , its because the way their Deen is build , is based on that deity-worship , and they're right ........ and Islamic state indeed hasnt got shit to do with deity worship , and so on . What if you got read of that deity , instead of getting rid of Islam ?

Well and obviously leaders we do need , on various levels in various quantity's . Religion isnt a subject of one of those levels , because religion doesnt exist .

A nice link that deals with "religious leadership" .

Madhab & Deen

...well only the poor fool Muslim who believes everything his elders have taught him, without learning , exploring himself.

To tell you the truth I have not known a Muslim that honestly explores everything his elderly or skool tought him about Islam .
The premisses are set , and they're set on a level that doesnt allow a true understanding anymore , and thus they're totally stuck . The only place in the Ummah where I have discovered honest exploration of Islam is in Sufism , and I dont know any Sufi in person so......

what about the converts? when i visited sheikh Nazim, there were German brothers who had converted to Islam, and thy had such a well schooled knowledgable approach to Islam...since they didtn have any "cultural" "emotional" baggage...they entered Islam totally objectively after researching and learning for themselves...man those brothers put me to shame!!!

The converts are Muslim obvious . See you didnt understand my point , I did not exclude those who are Muslim by blood to those who are not , I merely pointed out a way that you can form Ummah without having a philosophical agreement . But thats not all ways , they convert to Islam completely , if they would just sit at home and read Qu'ran and philosophize a bit , then they are excluding philosophy/theology from the Deen . Maybe they dont even think about it and just sit at home and have faith in Allah , then they have excluded some emotional and perhaps spiritual concepts of the Deen . Those peoples could be Ummah with those others that do so , but Islam isnt about one specific aspect of the Deen , its the Deen in general . I think if the Ummah then should be considered a masse of peoples that deal with the larger ammount of the Deen . Those converts are totally about Deen , just becaus they're missing out on one issue (biological) doesnt mean they're not Muslim ..... just like when you dont include politics doesnt make you a non-Muslim . Its the bigger picture of things that defines the Ummah IMHO .

It is sad that in eyes of peoples not all aspects of the Deen weigh equally , for instance I would be much faster considered a Muslim because Im from a Muslim family and live/participate within the Ummah (so just the social and biological part(btw I think we should also question the relevance of this specific part) , then study Qu'ran (philosophy) and perform salaat (spiritual) . This way , Hassan from Algiers would be considered almost by deifintion more of a Muslim than Pedro Casagrande from Honduras . Its totally stupid , but thats how peoples mind works when they are constructing/imagining the concept of Ummah .

absolutely...ibadah and owning a piece of art is different...but some fools get over zealous...dont mind them.

Indeed , but what I was aiming at was the difference between "worshipping" an object or owning it as a peace of art or in any other non-worshipping way .

Its funny , just because its some intended prortait of Issa , or Mary there can only be a worshipping relation between the subject and the object , it all depends on what understanding peoples have of that piece of material , those who fear they'll worship it are the ones who object to it .

In any way I dont consider worshipping and Ibadah to be the same , I understand how man's mind has made the actualization of a righteous potential like to do good etc into "to do good for" , this misunderstanding has actually led to some business relationship between man and his deity (if I act nice you gimme paradise) , thats because the law of cause-effect is being ignored .

.....aint no motherfucker gonna take ma snoop dog CDs away from me!!!!!!

Not my cd's not my :m: and not my beautifull statue of Mary
 
bro,
regarding salaat, we're dancing around the subject. The fact is that it's prescribed to us, whatever our concept and rationalisaton of what or may not be worship, Ibadah, salaat, prayer, or any other word we wish to call it by, we cannot escape the bare facts. Are you then totally dissmising the Quran, and the actions of the Prophet(SAW)?
We have to crawl first, before we can walk, before we can even run, then maybe we can fly.


http://www.inter-islam.org/Actions/Congregation.html#The Importance of Congregational Prayer


"The Prophet , himself never omitted even a single congregational prayer. Even in his sickness, it was strenuous for him to walk; nonetheless, with the aid of two of his companions he came (while his auspicious feet were dragging on the ground) to the mosque and prayed with the congregation"

so are you saying the Prophet was misguided in his daily salaat?
 
Flores
I think they should all go home and

I dont think Shayks should go home , because many of them are wise and have profound knowledge that can teach many people . Flores why do you let this emotional resentment you have for religious authority (probably not even in general but because of all the retards we got running around these days with the fundamentalist tint obviously) get in the way of rational thinking ? Dont you feel that it is good for a person to be wise and bring efford into teaching others who wish to be taught his wisdom ?

Anyways I think the Shayks you should rather compare with Priests and Rabbi's than the pope .......

Buhd

I was born a Muslim, for which I am eternally grateful.


I am seriously questioning this father-son thing , maybe it is totally misunderstood , maybe we are all born Muslims . Maybe we're totally misunderstanding the biological link , I mean in essence it doesnt deal at all with Islam (peace-submission) , and if you think about it we are all born with a peacefull mind at submission of the great powers that influence our lives , dont you think ? I think this interepertation of the biological part of the Deen might be very well fabricated for political motives , instead of being a true representation of what Qu'ran prescribes .

The small percentage of understanding that I posess about my own deen has given me a clarity of vision and perspective on life that I would have never have attained as a Non muslim.

You know ......Im almost claiming the opposite .

Simple things like, whenever I meet a Muslim I dont even know, the first thing I say to him is:
Asalaamu Alaikum" literally translates as:
"Peace and blessings be upon you"....when was the last time non Muslims greeted a complete stranger that way?


See this deals with what Ive mentioned previously about how Arabs think . It might sound a big deal bro , but whats left of it ? Most Muslims arent actually wishing blessings of peace to be upon the person they meet , does their hearts hold more than a simple "hello" ? Perhaps your does , but most dont . It shows how a wonderfull formulation of language doesnt necesarrily implies a wonderfull understanding of that formulation .

No for meaning what you say you need to go back to the time this was developped , for surely one developped it as he meant it to be .

Salaam
 
Buhd
We have to crawl first, before we can walk, before we can even run, then maybe we can fly.

My brother , these people are making me walk blindfolded on my hands , I rather stay still and figure out what the hell Im doing before Im doing anything other .

Are you then totally dissmising the Quran, and the actions of the Prophet(SAW)?

I have done so already , before I start studying for myself . Then I started understanding that it wasnt Qu'ran or Muhammad per se that I have dissmissed , but what other people have told me about it . And the more Im learning about it , the more Im convinced of this . I have many questions and I know little , but the most essential things that made progress possible I am understanding now .

Specifically for Qu'ran , who can read it ? Who can explain it ? And who are doing so these days ? The answers to these 3 questions dont make me feel like Im dismissing Qu'ran .


so are you saying the Prophet was misguided in his daily salaat?

I know little about our prophet in this sense , so I am not dismissing anything at all . Only thing I know is what others tell me , and many things others tell me are totally ridiculous .

Not anywhere in that link you have provided is explained WHY Salaat does this or that , some vague advantages are put forward and many rules are given along with their demonstration of how Muhammad did the same , again not explaining why .

When you answer a mathematical question we need the calculation along with the result .
 
Captain
As an atheist, i have rejected traditional religions, including islam, on the grounds of logical fallacy.

I have done the same on the same reasons . What I always wonder is why do people equate the subject to what people say about it ?


However, my understanding of non-deity religions such as buddism and sufism has so far led me to reject those religions as well...though not for logical fallacy but for being superfluous.


Sufism isnt another religion , Sufism=Islam , its just another approach/interpertation .

I dont understand how you define superfluous because of the the following :

Can I not come to the same conclusions on my own through free thought? Or is sufism more like a guide with bits of information to pick and choose as needed?


Every form of knowledge is available through your own free thought , not just correct information but fallacious information as well . Does it need to be exclusive ? Why ?

As for "bits of information" , you must first rejects other parts of it to have "bits" , right ? What if you dont ? Not that Im claiming that Sufism is life's answer ...... I couldnt even .


But jihad's post seem more tolerant and intelligent to me

lol

so I dont really care

Thats the spirit :D

Buhd

Imagine crossing a huge desert from one end to the other, taking you many years. During your journey you rest under a palm tree for shade for an hour or two...that is how significant this life is.


Here's my revised interpertation :D :

I believe this doesnt deals with life as a "time" issue compared to the entire system of "existence" , or whatever other something somewhere sometime . I think what meant is how we are understanding/living this life in .... you can say quality I suppose .
I think that brings closer Islam to the living , instead of focussing on our deaths . Islam is about accepting death , not about doing all sorts of things because we FEAR that after our deaths things are sucky . Its all about life man , this life . Lets start with that first before we worry about our death . That doesnt mean material or worldy , but simply NOW .

Capt

Ok, but I might find it hard to understand/accept the 'spiritual' bits as I am quite the skeptic but I will try.

I think this because you might misunderstand "spirituality" just like you might misunderstand "theology" .

How exactly do you understand spirituality ? Ofcourse first you should wonder what the soul is .

Tiassa
almost all of my exposure comes through the filter of Idries Shah

His filter is quite nice I believe , but I know little can you elaborate on some of his concepts ?

Nasrudin

Nasrudin, starving with hunger went to a cafe and started to fill his mouth with food, using both hands.
His neighbour was passing, and stopped.
Why eat with two hands, Mulla?
Because I haven't got three.
:)

Buhd

From that link Tiassa provided on Nazim , I took a piece that shows perhaps a little bit what I am talking about with inmterpertations :
the earth is asking-"Give my share give my share!"

The same we can deduce a logical procedure from this saying , the same way we should study our scriptures .

just to see if the Sheikh is still with us.....

Is he still alive ?
 
My brother , these people are making me walk blindfolded on my hands , I rather stay still and figure out what the hell Im doing before Im doing anything other .
Click to expand...

bro who? sounds like you've had some bad experience and someones told u a load of shit.

whenever ure in my neck of the woods, I'll take u to see my "pir"
it'll be an experence....believe me;)
 
Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Please Flores , its great that you love your imaginary friend and Im sure your imaginary friend loves you just as much as you love him , but dont claim that is Islam , because it is not . Sure one can intepretate it like that , but hey others can intepertate it much crazyer and BAN music and make you wear a ninja-suit.
Click to expand...

You are an inspired man my friend. I salute you.
 
Buhd
bro who? sounds like you've had some bad experience and someones told u a load of shit.

Sunni Muslims bro , family and friends . Both Muslim and Christian . My entire peoples , they all believe in the literal interpertation of Qu'ran (or Bible) with stories in space-time etc .
Everybody told me lots of shit , most Ive learned from in my life were Jews , and not very religious ones .

http://www.thetruereligion.org/allah.htm

See how their semantics aint relevant one bit ? They believe in the Christian God , Im sorry but the God the Christians believed in when Qu'ran was revealed (this means "manifested through diine inspiration" not "shown by the deity") to Muhammad is a total joke . Yes I know they are praised , but so are the Sabeans , what was their theological understanding ? The MoonGod ?

Thing is this way its a simple improvement on some ridiculous aspects and problems , flames in hell and virgins in heaven .

Dude this shit was refuted in Euro even 400 BC , this shouldnt be topic of discussion in 2003 AD .

And the most amazing thing , everything that the Sunni teach is based on things they simply dont know , Qu'ran is not completely understood now is it ?

I'll take u to see my "pir"

That'll be great , Ive never met a Pir .

Wes
You are an inspired man my friend. I salute you.
:)

I was too harsh on Flores though :(
forgive me sis ? :)

Salaam
 
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They believe in the Christian God , Im sorry but the God the Christians believed
Click to expand...

bro, you're making sweeping generalisations and asumptions.
You've already come to the pre conclusion that someone who believes inthe validity of the Quran and Hadith, automatically has a clumbsy interpretation of deen and the ALLAH etc...
not true. I dont know what is in the heart and mind of joe bloggs, you or anyone else , how can I, and hence how can you?

Qu'ran is not completely understood now is it ?
Click to expand...

true..but lack of true undertanding of X, doesnt negate the inherent validity of X does it?



Thing is this way its a simple improvement on some ridiculous aspects and problems , flames in hell and virgins in heaven
Click to expand...

...again bullshit perpetuated by my Roman friends. I challege you to find any true Islamic shcolar worth his salt who will describe JANAAT and JUHUNAM in such simplistic ways



Dude this shit was refuted in Euro even 400 BC , this shouldnt be topic of discussion in 2003 AD .
Click to expand...

off course it should be discussed, you of all people are the last person I'd expect to shy away from a good discussing;)

That'll be great , Ive never met a Pir
Click to expand...

Inshallah, one day:D
 
As-Salaam Alaikum

My brother you seem to have a misunderstanding of some things I have said .

You've already come to the pre conclusion that someone who believes in the validity of the Quran and Hadith, automatically has a clumbsy interpretation of deen and the ALLAH etc...

No I have not . What I have done is estemized the amount of deity-worshippers within our 1.3 Billion peoples Ummah . And I have determined that this estimation can validly be generalized into what we call : everytbody .

Does this mean all 1.3 B ? Ofcourse not , it is not a rule or pre-conclusion , its relevant generalization . How many dont believe in the sky-God ? 1 Million ? 2 ? 10 ? 100 ?

Not enough to consider it a relevanty enough amount to avoid calling it everything ,

To tell you the truth , I have not ever met a Muslim that does not believe in the same God the Christians believe in (xcept for Jesus & Ghost) . Sure there would be Pirs and Shayks and Sufi and perhaps some sects that are actually conscious and knowledged in what they practice as a system of life , but most Muslims I know cant even read the Qu'ran properly , that includes Arabs not in the least , plenty cant even read at all .

I know Muslims from Syria , Iraq , Palestine , Israe , Lebanon , Egypt , Maroc , Algeria , Tunesia , Turkey , Afghanistan , Indonesia , Phillipines as far as I could remember rightaway and all of them worship a deity . Sure they're all regulars , but regulars is what makes masse .

And then there's the fundies , I love them politically but concerning Deen as a whole they are total cavemen .

So there you have it , conventional Islam is practiced by simple-minded peoples , while unconventional Islam is practiced by the mentally disturbed .

Hey its the same with Christianity and even Judaism (you might expect different in lower quantities perhaps , there's just 14 M Jews) .

And we bring it down to a general intelligence level that allowes these things , its not that different from Westerners and even though Im not too sure on the rest of the planet , I suspect it to be a human thing that what we call stupidity . Only thing with religion is that it tends to hold very strung while others are dealt with , even to a superior level (very intelligent peoples who worship deity's) . I think this is because of the loads of cultural-emotional influence this shit has on a persons psychology , the mind simply cant cope , it might self-destruct

I dont know what is in the heart and mind of joe bloggs, you or anyone else , how can I, and hence how can you?

If you have knowledge of psychology a bit of sociology and anthropology and can calculate/estimate a number or two you can get a very good picture of whats in their hearts & minds and how those 2 inter-relate . And besides , come'on now its too damn obvious if you just talk to a regular brother , even the brightest ones are praying their imaginary friends .

Id say that it is a brother who should be their friend , not a made up deity , because Allah is in their brothers . They always claim material possessions (oftenly after a long proces of theft) and thank Allah for it , do you thank your object of robbery for his possesions you have claimed yours and destroyed along the proces of selfbeneficience ? And then call Hu a friend ? Existence isnt the friend of the bringer of death .

true..but lack of true undertanding of X, doesnt negate the inherent validity of X does it?

A very valuable lesson . You cant refute content by its source .
You cant identify a concept by its practicers . Value of X is independant of external intepertations of X .

...again bullshit perpetuated by my Roman friends. I challege you to find any true Islamic shcolar worth his salt who will describe JANAAT and JUHUNAM in such simplistic ways

First of all its not simplistically defining , its MIS-defining . Im sure there are plenty scholars mis-defining , however all these wonderfull scholars are pretty irellevant to how peoples view this . And peoples views are really really backward . I think the average Taoist has far superior understanding of this empty void the deity is destined to fill , than the average Muslim does .

As for the Romans , blaim them for all you want but the Greeks themselves have proved you can totally screw up your own linguistic concepts into crap , something the Arabs are good at as well . The Arabs have as well , and so have the Jews .
But I wont argue that most Roman intellectual matters were totally hopeless , Western philosophy was just born , and they and their Hellenist friends managed to screw it up all the way into Christianity and its the Dark Ages .

off course it should be discussed, you of all people are the last person I'd expect to shy away from a good discussing

Everything should be discussed , like the essence of a banana , thing is there is a limit in space-time and priorities to be made . It shouldnt have taken the position it has taken today , not by a long shot .
 
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Jihad,
Can you describe to us in one SHORT paragraph what exactly is your belief??? I'm utterly confused about you. Please try to be concise and describe everything.

So you won't feel on the spot, here is my belief.

I believe I'm a human being made of lowly carbon deteriorating material that resembles the ones you find in clay. I believe I have a soul and that my soul belongs to a vast creator that I call Allah that created the entire universe and even beyond. I believe that this creator has given me a great gift of assigning me a highly intelligent soul that my creator wishes to test in an uncontrolled environment. I believe that how I treat my soul, the destination of my soul will be determined after my test is over and marked by death as we know it. My whole purpose in life is to run my marathon the best way I know who, and I figured that it doesn't matter what is in the afterlife now, because if it's god's decision that will place me, then it is not of value to think too much about god's decision, just think about my mission. I believe in the Prophet Muhammed as the last prophet of god and the Quran as the true word of god.
 
Well in very short sis , I believe my thoughts exist .

Thats about it really .......

About the rest Im either skeptic or negative .

You see I can believe all sorts of things because my emotions and perception and psychology demands this of me , but in the end I know jack shit and so do you and everybody else .

Everything I can know at least a bit is what forms in my mind , and what forms in my mind I try to base at least on logic . And based on this logic , it is possible to understand that there are certain things I surely DONT believe .

One of those things are some that you do believe in :

*I dont believe in a specific creator called Allah (or any other)

1)as a living creature (in opposition of for instance something like a force , which I consider debatable)
2)within space-time
3)seperated from his creation
4)that can give me any other than I can give myself
5)who plays test-games on me

1)I dont believe that anything has ability to decide for me better than I , be it in this life or any other or anywhere-anytime-anyhow
2)I dont believe there exists such a thing as a last prophet within our understanding of time

The rest of your points I consider debatable , and I tend to agree with you on :

My whole purpose in life is to run my marathon the best way I know how , and I figured that it doesn't matter what is in the afterlife now

But this I would base on the premis that I am not capable of knowing my afterlife within life , while the truth is that the only thing Im not capable of is veryfing weither this is correct in life . I AM capable of understanding my afterlife in life , Im just not capable on knowing that I understand it . So perhaps it can matter , at least we're a step closer in the potential of "to matter" .....

I dont think you should call life a marathon though , I dont wanna be first to finish do you ? I rather see it as getting up somewhere , take a very long walk and drop dead eventually .
 
Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Well in very short sis , I believe my thoughts exist .
Thats about it really ....... About the rest Im either skeptic or negative .
Click to expand...

Are you skeptic about the fact that the earth exist, the sun and moon and other planets exist, other people like you exist, plants and animals from tiny to huge each seeming to resemble an entire universe within one of there cells. How can you be skeptic about the existance of the perfect creation of the universe, while it runs perfectly before your very eyes....To narrow down the created universe to just your thoughts is a great selfish prespective unto life.

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
You see I can believe all sorts of things because my emotions and perception and psychology demands this of me , but in the end I know jack shit and so do you and everybody else .
Click to expand...

I can say I agree here, but this observation necessitate that we all must recieve some external guidance to go on, in the form of prophets, holly books, ect....since we can easily see that within ourselves we are worth shit....We embrass such necessary guidance with faith....It's our rope to guidance.

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Everything I can know at least a bit is what forms in my mind , and what forms in my mind I try to base at least on logic . And based on this logic , it is possible to understand that there are certain things I surely DONT believe .
Click to expand...


You are being extremely arrogant and selfish here. You are indeed affected by your environment and not just by your mind. I don't believe for a second that all your thoughts are purely emerging from your brain without being affected by the way you were raised and your environment. You are merely reacting Jihad, you are in noway the initiator for your own thought.

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
*I dont believe in a specific creator called Allah (or any other)
1)as a living creature (in opposition of for instance something like a force , which I consider debatable)
2)within space-time
3)seperated from his creation
4)that can give me any other than I can give myself
5)who plays test-games on me
Click to expand...


Now you really worry me, because I can't but say that you are strong Atheistic. If you still insist on calling yourself Muslim, do you mind telling me precisely what is it that you have submitted to.

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
1)I dont believe that anything has ability to decide for me better than I , be it in this life or any other or anywhere-anytime-anyhow
2)I dont believe there exists such a thing as a last prophet within our understanding of time
Click to expand...

Who cares about last prophet and shit, I don't believe nor care of that crap either, but come on now, your arrogance is again kicking in. How can you claim that no other has ability to decide for you better than you while you were a stinkin semen that could decide nothing to itself. Let's test your theory here for a second, since you say you are best to decide for yourself. Do you think that we should have rain today, and how much exactly do you think you need for your best. May you also command the bacteria and worms in the ground to multiply to the exact correct number that will ensure balance for your life and the earth you walk on.

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
The rest of your points I consider debatable , and I tend to agree with you on :
Click to expand...

Oh how kind of you Jihad....you agree with me...little me...even though your whole survival kit in your brain and you need noone or nothing for any help....


Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
But this I would base on the premis that I am not capable of knowing my afterlife within life , while the truth is that the only thing Im not capable of is veryfing weither this is correct in life . I AM capable of understanding my afterlife in life , Im just not capable on knowing that I understand it . So perhaps it can matter , at least we're a step closer in the potential of "to matter" .....
Click to expand...

Do you mind supporting your statement here and telling us how did you arrive to the knowledge of your afterlife. I tend to agree with you about that the knowledge is within us but unaccecible now, which leads me to even believe further that I'm not the one in full control of myself and something else like my creator is really calling the shots.


Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
I dont think you should call life a marathon though , I dont wanna be first to finish do you ? I rather see it as getting up somewhere , take a very long walk and drop dead eventually .
Click to expand...

I disagree with you and still support the notion that life is best described as a marathon. Everything we do in our life is about competing. Some compete in money, some compete in faith, some compete to feel the best, ect.ect.... We even compete in our lines to the bathroom and our lines to enter the restaurants and movie theatres.....Our constant running with the notion that we can run for ever ends up in our sudden semi-expected dropping dead.
 
Flores : :cool:

Are you skeptic about the fact that the earth exist, the sun and moon and other planets exist, other people like you exist, plants and animals from tiny to huge each seeming to resemble an entire universe within one of there cells.

Yes , and this is because I only have acces to these concepts through my thoughts . If I cannot think sun-moon-etc , then at least to me (weither they exist in themselves or not) , they dont exist . So Im totally dependant on my mind , and cant perceive any of this shit without it . The question is , can I my mind create thee concepts , while perhaps they are all the same nothingness in reality (beyond my perception) ? I do know , that my mind can deny their existance and repress this objective reality into a subjective false idea I can be convinced of . People do that all the time , they make things go away and are hardly open for anything to come in . So If Im capable of making it go away , why wouldnt I be capable of making it appear ? And as this is getting so close to simply existence-nonexistence , why couldnt it be so that indeed all originates in my mind , however things would turn out is that at least something is originating there , my thoughts themselves . Thats only thing a human being can be absolutely sure of .

How can you be skeptic about the existance of the perfect creation of the universe, while it runs perfectly before your very eyes....To narrow down the created universe to just your thoughts is a great selfish prespective unto life.

The question is who creates this perfection ? You see many things that man always thought to be created , oftenly was created by his own mind . After I completely understood how this Nihilistic view holds for ethics(good-bad) and aesthetics(beautifull-ugly) , then why wouldnt ontology have a similar understanding .

A good explenation is given by my man Ahmad Hulussi in his book Mohammed's Allah :

With reference to us, i.e., individual beings with five senses, there is a universe we live within and there are also countless macro and micro universes. However, we should not miss the fact that all these determinations are considered in connection with the data that is perceived through our eyes.

Now...

Let us take the room you are in at the moment, as an example. Imagine we remove the ceiling and place the room onto the slide of an electromicroscope with a capacity of 60 million times' magnificence.

And then you went up to have a look through that microscope down to the room you were inside just a while ago.

What would you be seeing there then?

One would not be able to observe any physical objects any more after they are magnified to a billion times. But instead, their atomic components would be observed then on. Imagine what would happen if this magnification reached up to 60 billion times?

All the objects in our sight such as chairs, tables, people and everything in the room would entirely disappear, so would our brain’s commentary on its surrounding prior to the microscope experience.

And unconsciously we would utter the following in astonishment:

"Hey! What is going on? There is nothing here! Look! Nothing but atoms with nuclei and electrons moving around them! Well, but, where have all those people and objects gone?"

The brain who arrived at the view above is no one other than the brain that used to determine the presence of people and objects only a while ago, prior to looking through the microscope. The brain did not change. But an additional range was added as a change to the capacity of perceptive instrument so that the ranges of perception be transformed.

It means that a brain’s assessment of its environment alters as the capacity of its sensory means transform. In our example, the brain’s determination connected with the condition of its normal sensory means that "there are many objects and people in the room" altered to such a different discernment after the change that "there is nothing but only atoms present, countless numbers of electrons orbiting nuclei."

What would happen if we were to live on such a series of powerful lenses like those in an electromicroscope, and perceive the world through it all through our lifetimes from birth to death? What would be real to us?

Would we still be able to claim the existence of what we currently determine out there??? Or, would we defend the idea that everything around us, the world we live on, the space and everything we perceive is just a whole, one absolute substance composed of atoms???

Still further, if our brains were to be in a condition of observing the universe through an electromicroscope with a capacity of 10 trillion time magnification instead of that of 60 billion times, would we still be speaking of separate, independent "things" and people any more?

Or would we perceive the existence of the unseparated, undivided, ever-abiding, limitless and infinite ONE?
* * *
Hopefully we could make our idea clear to you!

I am trying to explain the following at this point we have arrived:

In ABSOLUTE REALITY, the only ONE that exists is the infinite and eternal ONE, who is undivided and unbroken WHOLE, the AHAD!

ALLAH is AHAD, as there is nothing other than "ALLAH" neither in macro nor in micro plan, and there is nothing to be HU's counterpart, like or to match HU!

However, because of our dependence on our physical senses, we are fooled into thinking in which we mistakenly view the whole ONE existence to be composed of many separate parts and fragments. It must be understood that our brains’ determination results from the condition of its intersectional sensory means.

However, if only a brain should not remain restricted in that very narrow range of its perception instruments’ capability… If only it could understand and interpret all the perceptional phenomena evident to the five senses as signs and samples drawn out among countless sensory experiences in the cosmos . . .

If only after that he could sink into deep thought (tafaqqur) and discover what else is out there after these samples… If then he could sail to a dimensional journey into the structural depth of them . . . and meet with the cosmic self, the cosmic ESSENCE, and could even finally realize the "nonexistence" of his individual self beside this Universal Essence, in anyway...

This is the most significant point of the theme!
* * *
As to the second significant detail of the theme...

MOHAMMED's ALLAH is "AHAD" meaning the infinite, limitless ONE unfragmented into parts, and this state involves all aspects and all "DIMENSIONS." So in this case, where, in which dimension and at which starting point could a separate being presumed to exist beside HU's own being, limit ALLAH by a line and make a space for itself?

Where is the place for a second being, for a GOD that would be mentioned to exist apart from "ALLAH"?

Will it be inside or outside "ALLAH?"

I can say I agree here, but this observation necessitate that we all must recieve some external guidance to go on, in the form of prophets, holly books, ect....since we can easily see that within ourselves we are worth shit....We embrass such necessary guidance with faith....It's our rope to guidance.


Sure , if we cannot come up with matters that are better ourselves , if we cannot produce scriptures ourselves . I mean you are aware that NOTHING has been written on this planet by something other than HUMAN for as far as science has proved us sofar (and its quite far) . See , there is absolutely no logic in omnipotent creatures that use primitive methods like writing , the pen moves itself within a system of movements-possibilities it has , which is lead by man's hand .

Isnt it said that nobody will be able to produce something as perfect as Qu'ran ? What if someone somehow could ? Ok its no fair game with you religious folks , since you will deny anyways , but I am sure that the most intleligent peoples of this planet might have a lcear judgement , and that such a judgement can allow an improvement of a Surah . Surely by the Islamic world it wouldnt be accepted as such by definition , that doesnt make it impossible .

You say external guidance , but can you point me the difference between internal and external ? every external is somethings internal , and ever internal is somethings external , its just layer after layer that we somehow can manage to distinguish from oneanother through some logical rules our mind works by .

You are being extremely arrogant and selfish here. You are indeed affected by your environment and not just by your mind. I don't believe for a second that all your thoughts are purely emerging from your brain without being affected by the way you were raised and your environment. You are merely reacting Jihad, you are in noway the initiator for your own thought.

Surely I am affected by my own environment , my point was in howfar am I able to create this environment that effetcs me . This you could also see as a proces of becoming more or less conscious , as consciousness is thought-awareness producive .

As for I am reacting , well I am always merely reacting , but that doesnt mean I cant react me some thoughts/awareness that create logical regulations of my reacting .

Action is always reactionary , its the law of cause and effect .
For instance this and that causes this and that reactions of my body eventually causing thirst , so I NEED to drink . Surely I can gain knowledge of this and do something about it . But just knowing how to know that I need to drink , or how to drink , or why to drink , doesnt mean I NEED to drink thus will attempt to do so .

As for being the initiator for my own thought , if not me than who ? My thoughts react , but they can react in any way I would want them to react , weither Im conscious of it or not . I initiate ALL my thoughts , maybe in-voluntary , maybe unconscious , maybe useless , but its ME nobody else .

Now you really worry me, because I can't but say that you are strong Atheistic. If you still insist on calling yourself Muslim, do you mind telling me precisely what is it that you have submitted to.

Now why do you want to hijack theology Flores ? Do I ? Do I call you atheist because I dont agree with your concept of God , because it doesnt match mine ? Now as you talk about being a Muslim , Im sure you're aware that Im not getting ever out of being a Muslim for the rest of my life , it doesnt depend on merely a philosophical understanding , and it doesnt depend merely on things that are under my controll .

But as far as Philosophy goes , Mu-Salim = Muslim . That means He who is of peace , am I correct ? Qu'ran is claimed to be the best system for peace , what If I have a better one that is unwritten ? Does that make it un-Islamic (Un-peacefull) ?

But to go about Qu'ran , here's the theology I cannot refute :
God is everything and everything is God

Now this is obviously a concept of God , thus theology . Thats THEIST , not A-Theist , because A-Theist denies existence of God , and what I am proposing is existence of ONLY God .

How can you claim that no other has ability to decide for you better than you while you were a stinkin semen that could decide nothing to itself. Let's test your theory here for a second, since you say you are best to decide for yourself. Do you think that we should have rain today, and how much exactly do you think you need for your best. May you also command the bacteria and worms in the ground to multiply to the exact correct number that will ensure balance for your life and the earth you walk on.

Why should I create something I have no interest of , and can copy directly from someone else with as many value ? Yes I am sure that the mind is capable denying rain into not even getting wet (as the mind can shut-off the becoming-wet understanding by denying rains existance) . As for calculating worms , if that would have any necesarity why wouldnt I be able to create it as my needs ask of me ? If I am working money I create all sorts of understandings with that as well dont I ? Why cant i do the same with worms ? Whats the difference ? My perception of it ? I can change perception , since Im the one perceiving .

even though your whole survival kit in your brain and you need noone or nothing for any help....

Who told you that ? Why couldnt my mind have created this emotional system that convinces me I need help of others ? Why would I deny this ? Please , offer all the help you can I would love all help on every subject offered in kindness and companionship .


Do you mind supporting your statement here and telling us how did you arrive to the knowledge of your afterlife. I tend to agree with you about that the knowledge is within us but unaccecible now, which leads me to even believe further that I'm not the one in full control of myself and something else like my creator is really calling the shots.


Oh I dont know , I havent got any knowledge on my afterlife ....... hardly (but I havent been busy with it either) . I think the knowledge IS accesible , only thing that isnt is veryfication that this knowledged is accessed , like u have the lottery ticket and won , but dont know because they're not telling it .

As for your creator calling the shots , I agree . I just dont agree on who the creator is . You see I think the creator is me+everything else , and I can gain decisiveness over everything else untill its just me . Sure I cant at the moment :rolleyes: , but it would be possible (at least thats my understanding of things) . You see there's absolutely no reason to say that it is impossible , crazier things happen .

I disagree with you and still support the notion that life is best described as a marathon. Everything we do in our life is about competing. Some compete in money, some compete in faith, some compete to feel the best, ect.ect.... We even compete in our lines to the bathroom and our lines to enter the restaurants and movie theatres.....Our constant running with the notion that we can run for ever ends up in our sudden semi-expected dropping dead.

I agree with you that we compete , but we dont compete on who finishes life first , so its still not a marathon . Its like this walk what I desrcibed , but then with all sorts of competions that have the purpuse of walking in best way to keep walking .

The fact its still semi-expected .........or rather totally a surprise actually , is amazing since we are capable of being aware of it 24/7 ...... and sometimes we are , just never at the moment of dying .
 
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