Sufi ?

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

I wondered how Muslims and general monotheistswould consider a definition of Sufi given by Sidi Shaykh Muhammad Said al-Jamal ar-Rifa'i ash-Shadhuli

It is the walking on the Path which leads to the knowing of who you are and Who Allah is, which is one and the same thing.

Would this give the good old religion-hating atheists a possible new understanding of theology as well ? Hmmmm , sheds quite an unconventional light on Genesis wouldnt y'all say ?

Oh , and let me drop another crazy assertion my religious brothers would hate me for : La Illaha Ill Allah means There is no God only Allah . (not : there is no God BUT Allah)

Wave the Illah-concept bye bye
Cheap doofus in the sky , GIVE BACK THEOLOGY !!!!

 

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

 

[stu43t]

Hi Jihad

I got a question. Allahs_Maths claimed to be a muslim but he did not believe in Allah. I gave him a lot of stick about this, because I could not comprehend what he was trying to tell me, I regret doing this.

Could you please explain (in simple terms) how it is possible to be a Muslim yet not accept Allah. I now know that it's possible, but I'm not sure how it works.

Another question: Re Saddam Hussein. Was he the tyrant he was made out to be?
I understand that there are three groups of people in Iraq: -sunnis, shi'ites and the kurds. Now I have recently been led to believe that the sunnis were favored by Saadam whereas the shi'ites and kurds were not.

There are good reasons why I ask these questions.

Thanks
Peace :m:

 

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

Hi Stu

To be a Muslim is to be of Islam , Islam is a system of life ,
Islam is Din (Arabic pronounce Deen) , witch is mistranslated into the concept of "religion", whilst Din indeed includes religion , but much more than that as well .

One of the aspects of the Din is the bond the Father has with Allah , symbolized through his sons' circumcizion . This is based on the tradition started by Abraham , and is familliar with Jews as well . You can perhaps compare this to Christian baptizing , something a person does not consciously choose for , but it does make him included to the religion/culture/group . Ofcourse circumcizion is something a bit more involving , but through this aspect of the Din of Islam one is to be called Muslim .

But being a Muslim is also said to be patriarch in general (for boys as well as girls(who have not this bond ofcourse)) , so this means that if your father is a Muslim , so are you , weither you like it or not . That is how you will be viewed by your fellow-Muslims , and that is how you would be judged by your fellow-Muslims . The Jews know this rule matriarch , if your mother is Jewish so are you , weither you practice Judaism or are a Zen-Buddhist like Jerry Seinfeld , you're still a Jew

I think this identifying of Muslims is most important for the outside world , because we have seen 60 years ago how peoples wont ask you for your belief , but simply look at your name , or your customs , when they judge you as being a Jew .

So those are 2 ways to be a Muslim (or Jew) , through heritage , through something that has nothing to do with religion , but is considered part of Din . Im not sure what the Hebrew word for Din is , I am sure there is one as both concepts (and languages) originally are quite similar

But if we get deeper a bit , we will find that Islam offers much more than this relation , and that is when for instance a concept of "believing or acknowledging Allah" . You see Allah is theological concept and can be interpreted in many ways . Many Muslims for instance interpret it quite similar to the way many Christians intepret it , as some super-creature in the skies , but thats only one understanding of Islam , and its not one I would follow .

The book I linked to in my previous post shows a Sufi-side of the concept of Allah , it might be a very interesting read for both Muslims and other theists , as well as atheists to get a new perspective of what they've been calling irrational religion all these years .

PS , I dont think AM denied the existence of Allah , I believe its the concept of todays religion that was questioned . The worshipping of an invisible super-creature , the emotional input called "faith" ...... Allah is much more than those silly things .....
Those peoples dont own the concept of Islamic theology , nobody owns Islam but Allah , all peoples have are options to it , a potential to be actualized .

It is very interesting to know that Islam deals with philosophies considered pagan by many Christians and similar theists , lets say the Virtue Ethics (names of Allah) Potential-Actual-theory (forget the Islamic name) both from Aristotle , and lets not forget Here...somethings (forgot his name) theory of war=father of all things , conflict is essential ....translated into the concept of Jihad .

Islam isnt just a mythology it is oftenly presented as ......
Only a fool would think Salaat (mistranslated into prayer) is to worship is some holy spook , its breathing-regulation and meditation , physical excercize and manifesting powerfull concepts through sound and language into divinity ......... but half my brothers are fools allas


Its wrong for me to expect people who do not deal with Islam to understand Islam before I expect it from my own Muslim-brothers , most Muslim-thoughts tend toward a book-burning philosophy the midevil Christians were so famous for , there are peoples who actually favour banning music :bugeye: .........

Saddam Hussein. Was he the tyrant he was made out to be?

Saddam was a 100% Stalinist and treated those he opressed unimaginably awfull . Indeed as he and his clan and government pt for Tariq Aziz a Christian) , Sunni interests collided with his . The Shiaa however (majority of Iraq) suffered immensly , the Kurds have been better of this past few years as they held a sort-of independance since Gulf 1

The opression of the Shiaa can explain todays Shiaa attitude toward occupation , they have already been occupied for 40 years , they want to be on their own badly . The Shiaa in Iraq wont calm down , and I expect a peoples revolution after USA installs a puppet regime , we all know a democratic one would be a vote for an Islamic state so thats gonna be out of the question , but this is more for the politics-section .

peace

 

[Flores]

Jihad Alif Lah Lah should have a warning of "Puke inducing material, read at your own risk".

Most bull shit and paganism that I have ever heard in my life. Now I won't be able to say no more that the ill justification found in christianity is not found in Islam......There is no safe haven anymore from human brainwashing. It has touched many people and all religions.

My friend, El Deen that you are talking about is Deen Allah. It belongs to god only and not to you or others to organize at your wish. Religion by nature is only to god. It's not Ummah or tradition or bullshit. Wake up please from your rheoteric and realize that religion is private relationship between a servant and his god....It's not a show and tell for the Umah.

What a shame??? No wonder god says, that heaven will only be a reside to many of the earlier people and very few of the later people. I once thought that god is discriminating, how can people of the past that used to be of small numbers have more of them admitted to heaven, while us with more people, have fewer admitted, I never understood this statement, but no, this statement looks very true.

 

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

Floro
Lah Lah

"Puke inducing material, read at your own risk"

So that is your opinion on these Sufi , are you aware that Sufism dates to prophet Muhammad who was a the first Sufi himself ?

Most bull shit and paganism that I have ever heard in my life

What exactly is ? And mind you , you dont own theology Allah does . So please , dont call theists with another understanding of Allah than yourself Pagan , its disrespecting in every way . You dont own theology you know ........ Oh and let me ad that it surpirse me how easily you who whine about calling peoples Kafir so easily use the word Pagan .

Now I won't be able to say no more that the ill justification found in christianity is not found in Islam......There is no safe haven anymore from human brainwashing. It has touched many people and all religions.

Deity worshipping under the shields of culture and with political purpose I consider brainwashing . Sufi is not something to be spoken about when you mention "anymore" , have you read any links I posted , have you ever read about Sufism anyways , or were you one of those who just felt Sufi were nice calm peoples who are muslim so they probably worship the same as you .

Let me quote my man Ibn Arabi :
What you worship means NOTHING to me

My friend, El Deen that you are talking about is Deen Allah. It belongs to god only and not to you or others to organize at your wish.

What if "at my wish" is a correct way to organize it ? You just want to leave everything untouched because of emotional comitments to your imaginary friend .

Religion by nature is only to god.

Religion is much more than that , you're speaking obviously about faith alone , you suggest religion to be equalized with faith , thats great but there are religions that dont have any faith in the invisible man but worship visible animals for instance , but ofcourse to you thats not religion as your deity's dick is invisible thus bigger than any other ?

There isnt such a thing as religion by nature , religion is man made , who wrote the Qu'ran ? Who wrote the Torah ? Who wrote the Bible ? Your God has no hands , remember ?
No deity is needed for Divine Inspiration ....

It's not Ummah or tradition or bullshit. Wake up please from your rheoteric and realize that religion is private relationship between a servant and his god....It's not a show and tell for the Umah.

You should wake up and realize Deen isnt a belonging of you nor your invisible deity .

What a shame??? No wonder god says, that heaven will only be a reside to many of the earlier people and very few of the later people.

Who are the early people ? The neanderthals ? Maybe heaven is FULL right ? Funny thing more than HALF peoples of these globes believe in the same invisible deity you do (ok some add some jesus-flavour to it) , obviously they all go to heaven right ? Hardly any believed in deity's in the old days ....... so what , the unbelievers went to heaven and all todays faithfull followers go to hell ?

Get real heaven and hell aint some PLACES , heaven and hell exceeds space-time , why should I die to go to heaven ?

I once thought that god is discriminating, how can people of the past that used to be of small numbers have more of them admitted to heaven, while us with more people, have fewer admitted, I never understood this statement, but no, this statement looks very true.

Thats the crap Im talking about , an omnipotient creature to be subject of a silly concept like time-discrimination , and then even trying to make up logics that go along with that by understandiong it , he already knew we're all evil in Y2G right ?

Please Flores , its great that you love your imaginary friend and Im sure your imaginary friend loves you just as much as you love him , but dont claim that is Islam , because it is not . Sure one can intepretate it like that , but hey others can intepertate it much crazyer and BAN music and make you wear a ninja-suit .

Big difference is weither you read Qu'ran in Arabic or go right along with Pickthal , I question both the intepertation and translation .

I dont think you fully understand Qu'ranic Arabic now do you ?
Its not just like any language now is it ? Even if you perfectly understand modern Arabic .......

 

[everneo]

first, i don't know much about islam and sufism.

while islam talking about one and only almighty it also calls ibrahim (abraham) as friend of god. can any mortal deserves to be the friend of almighty. but what prevents if god comes down to claim the friendship..

sufism indicates that by denouncing the fragile human desires one gets nearer to god. the ultimate surrender results in collapsing of the difference and the human is not a seperate individual anymore ; he finds himself within god.

anyway this is my limited understanding and personal opinion.

 

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

everneo


Basically there are couple ways of identifying the concept of Allah if we are to translate this in western terms :

First we have ontology :

The Wahdat Ul Wujood Madrassa teaches : God Is everything and Everything is God .

everything is the ontological status of Allah , and everything is 1 .
Allah=1

epistemology :

Ibn Arabi : I was a hidden treasure and wanted to be known, thus I created the world that I might be known .

And then we have a mixture of everything (including aesthetics and morals) in the theory of virtue ethics a-la Aristotle , with 99 names of Allah . Those names are potential attributes for one to posses within the theory of Insan-e-Kamil (perfection of man) .

Mansoor Al halaj the Great Sufi has claimed he was Al Haq (the attribute of Truth) , they didnt treat him nicely for it . Those bastard religious fanatics

This theory as described by Mansoor Al Halaj was the infusion of God as divine into the human soul .

Another famous Sufi Fakir Qadir Bakhsh Bekass said : Did you create me or did I ask you to create me. Did you need me more or did I ask you for the favour of life ?

I think this as wel perfectly describes the relation between Ibrahim and God , Mussa and God , Issa and God and Muhammad and God (if we are to call it God as proper name is not Illah but Allah ) .

When you are gaining perfect virtue , Ari from greece also figured you are in a proces of actualization your potential , other Greeks concluded this is manifested in a status of struggle/conflict , from this Jihad as a concept is evolved and is meaning to actualize your potential good over evil , beautifull over ugly , knowledged over ignorant , living over dying as the eternal struggle of + and - (dialectics has used this similar concept of things into forces). I think here is where mortality comes in an as an interesting aspect about Abraham the great father so he is called . How old is he supposed to have become ?

But the names of Allah have also a mathematical meaning . There is however argument weither there are 99 , I am sure eventually there are . And then an entire metaphysic concept is created within these 99 "attributes" , and Allah being 1 .

And then there is the Sufi understanding of the symbols of Qu'ran , the religious "orthodox" (they're not there mid-evil) only understand the general arabic and simply MAKE UP everything else with retarded rules , Flores has pointed such rules out on many occasions , havent you Flores .

Another thing with Sufi is there are mathematical theories on all those crazy signs nobody understands , something worth a thorough study I say .

Islam is as science , its not faith , its not hope its not fear its not deity-worship , its the knowledge of Allah (Da'ath Elohiym in Hebrew) . And that is what Sufi deals with .

Sure all Sufi will eventually be called Pagans by the Ummah and they all have been called so and treated as such when they opened their mouths . The same how Christians burned "witchess" (Jewish Qabbalists) at the stake for practicing their Din (damn I just know there is a similar Hebrew word for it , does anybody knows what the Hebrew word ......I know Hebrew just like Arabic has no word for religion

Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Arabic are brothers not only in language but in science and in mysticism (as Sufi and Qabbalah are considered , funny ......whats mystic , something not understood ? Its so vague , I dont understand it but need a reason so its mysticism .

And before you know it you have a gym full of crazy Americans sitting doing Sufi breathing pracitices along their Zen-Buddhism and Tae Bo , not thats not Sufi ............

 

[(Q)]

Stu

I got a question. Allahs_Maths claimed to be a muslim but he did not believe in Allah.

Perhaps Jihad and Allahs are one and the same? Don’t you find it odd that Allahs last post is the same day as Jihad registered and began posting? And don’t you find it odd that they talk about the same things and have the same ideals? Coincidence?

Hmmm…

 

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

Qolombus questions : Perhaps Jihad and Allahs are one and the same?

Clue #1 : Don’t you find it odd that Allahs last post is the same day as Jihad registered and began posting?

Clue #2 :And don’t you find it odd that they talk about the same things and have the same ideals?

Questioning : Coincidence?

Heavy thinking processes : Hmmm…

Following the light of the sun, we left the Old World
I believe that this land which your Highnesses have commanded me to discover is very great, and that there are many other lands in the south of which there have never been reports.

 

[stu43t]

Originally posted by (Q)
Perhaps Jihad and Allahs are one and the same? Don’t you find it odd that Allahs last post is the same day as Jihad registered and began posting? And don’t you find it odd that they talk about the same things and have the same ideals? Coincidence?

Hmmm…

What difference would that make anyhow?

Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammed Ali, no-one complained then, and it didn't make a difference to him being the worlds best heavyweight champion ever. He said "I am the greatest" - and he was!

So I wouldn't worry over a change of name, if this were the case.

 

[stu43t]

HI Jihad,

These maybe stupid questions but:

Is there an equivalent in Islam to the pope, is there a head of Islam?

Are there denominations in Islam, as in Christianity?

 

[Jihad_AlifLamLamHah]

Interesting you bring up Muhammad Ali , Stu
Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammed Ali

Muhammad Ali changed his name after he joined the Nation Of Islam (Islamic sect/interpertation in USA) , and discovered the knowledge of Self , as the Black people in America had no identity whatsoever . The teachings from Nation of Islam came from Elijah Muhammed who had received this from who they called Allah in person , Wallace Farad Muhammad , who was an Arab who discovered (so says the story) he had Muslim family in America who did not know they were Muslim (as many slaves indeed were Muslims but lost their identity over the years) . His teachings deal with certain elements of Sufi and Druze (Islamic sect/interpertation) and all sorts of stuff he probably made up himself , from Sufi the essence of this knowledge of Self derrived .

Thats why :
He said "I am the greatest" - and he was!

Muhammad Ali (left) and Elijah Muhammad (right) the selfproclamed messenger of Allah in the person of Farad Muhammad :

So I wouldn't worry over a change of name, if this were the case.

No worries Stu , Q has decided a long time ago to stalk me as a lunatic around these boards and whine about every thing as long as it comes from me , let him be he has been ridiculed and humiliated so many times in so many threads , its just sad really ...........

These maybe stupid questions but:

Its far more stupid to not ask a question because its a stupid one and thus remain without an answer , dont you think so ?

Is there an equivalent in Islam to the pope, is there a head of Islam?
Are there denominations in Islam, as in Christianity?


Islamic leadership depends on the sect/interpertation/group (like with Christianity as you call denomination) , all sorts of Islamic groupings have different systems . In general there is no such system as Christianity (pope , priest etc hierarchy) , in Sunni (mainstream) Islam there are only Imam who lead the prayer and comments on some things like a priest . There is also the : Ulema Ud-Din , Scientits of Islam , they come up with what everything means , be sure that they dont say the same as the Imam , everyone has ofcourse interests that decide what to say instead of what is truth .

Most political leadership is secular , others like Shiaa has hierarchy with at the top of Ayatollah Ozma (I think thats the closest to a pope who runs a country more or less) then Ayatollah and then some others , I believe the hierarchy in Iran today are called the Savavid , but there is obviously other more fundamental Islam as Shiaa who have some sort of things but I dont really know ....... maybe Flores could tell more about this as Im sure she is much more knowledged on this subject than I am .
Correct me where If I was wrong on anything while you're at it Flores .

As for any authority within Islam , I personally dont acknowledge any , everybody is free to argue and opinionate but none have authority over me , if I would to consult some faster than others , I consider the Ulema Ud-Din the ones who are potential to be closest to truth , and the Masters in Sufi as well , I believe oftenly they are one and the same .

And as for denominations , I belong to the Sunni (as most Arabs) by heritage (absolutely not ideologically ) , Sunni and Shiaa are widely accepted as they are the largest , but others are oftenly pseudofied , for instance Nation of Islam (USA) or the Druze are oftenly left out of the understanding of the Ummah (Islamic community) , some dont consider several African sects not as Islam , others dont acknowledge some individual Sufi (they're not a tight group or sect-like) as Islam , it all depends on peoples , there are hardly any objectivly acknowledged rules as everybody claims truth through the same letters but other understandings .
Might is right , just like everywhere else .......

 

[bhudmaash]

Originally posted by (Q)
Stu

I got a question. Allahs_Maths claimed to be a muslim but he did not believe in Allah.

Perhaps Jihad and Allahs are one and the same? Don’t you find it odd that Allahs last post is the same day as Jihad registered and began posting? And don’t you find it odd that they talk about the same things and have the same ideals? Coincidence?

Hmmm…

...got no opinion on the subject matter ie the content of the thread, so I(Q) start spouting gibberish about Allahs math is Jihad Allif......blah blah.........

Perhaps Q might be a moron....hmmmmmmmm

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by stu43t
HI Jihad,

These maybe stupid questions but:

Is there an equivalent in Islam to the pope, is there a head of Islam?

Are there denominations in Islam, as in Christianity?

The quick answer here is no. There is no one person in Islam who have any power or authority over the other. Any elected person is a political figure and is in no way a religious figure. We do have some political religious figures who call themselves Shikhs and issue interpretations and things like the pope, but they are irrelevant to me......I think they should all go home and get busy making a good life so they can go to heaven. Prophet Muhammed is the last religious figure in history.

As far as denominations, some people feel there are defined lines separating sects and stuff. I don't. I study the Quran and call myself a Muslim, and don't like to think that I belong to a sunni shiah or other crap, just a muslim is good enough.

 

[bhudmaash]

Q:

Don’t you find it odd that Allahs last post is the same day as Jihad registered and began posting?

.....bloody hell!!....jeez Q, do u have a wall chart plotting the posting activities of all the sciforum users?!!!

Jihad: ....watch out, this dude's stalking you.

Sufism:

Have to study this thread in more detail, had to get the customary insults out of the way first....yep...feel better now!
I'm facinated by Sufism, but it wasn't untill a few years ago that I actually came accross the word, untill then a lot of the ethos of sufism was what I believed naturally anyway, but I need to learn about it a bit more. Like I mentioned before, I don't really blame non Muslims for their ignorance, since as Jihad mentioned islam is infinite, deen is something so great we muslims can't even conceptualise it, hence as Muslims we have a greater onus to pursue knowledge. We can never know enough, we can never learn enough, constant learning, and the capacity to learn is paramount.
I have had many problems in life since the age of 18, and I have sat in the company of many great Muslims in many Darbars, and Mosques. Maybe the things they told me to help me with my problems constitute sufism, maybe they were sufis?....I dont know.
I know very little, and all I know is what my life experiences have taught or shown me, and I can say this I have witnessed "Islam" (for want of a beter word) being used tangibly to address certain problems, in a way I will never be able to fully rationalise.
It's all a learning curve. But I am extremely thankful for one thing.
My father was a Muslim (albeit a very weak one with weak deen) but hence I was born a Muslim, for which I am eternally grateful.
The small percentage of understanding that I posess about my own deen has given me a clarity of vision and perspective on life that I would have never have attained as a Non muslim.

Simple things like, whenever I meet a Muslim I dont even know, the first thing I say to him is:
"Asalaamu Alaikum" literally translates as:
"Peace and blessings be upon you"....when was the last time non Muslims greeted a complete stranger that way?

but like so much of non Muslim culture, it takes a lot subliminally from other cultures (including Islam)...now it's fashionable to say "peace"....it's all good.

Peace and love.

 

[fadingCaptain]

jihad,

It is the walking on the Path which leads to the knowing of who you are and Who Allah is, which is one and the same thing.

Would this give the good old religion-hating atheists a possible new understanding of theology as well ?

As an atheist, i have rejected traditional religions, including islam, on the grounds of logical fallacy. However, my understanding of non-deity religions such as buddism and sufism has so far led me to reject those religions as well...though not for logical fallacy but for being superfluous.

Pretend I, an atheist, have the same moral and ethical principals as you. Pretend I have the same goals for humanity. Pretend I have the same respect and awe for nature and the universe.

What does sufism offer me? Why should I be compelled to learn more about its teachings? Can I not come to the same conclusions on my own through free thought? Or is sufism more like a guide with bits of information to pick and choose as needed?

Q,
I do not know if allah and jihad are the same person. But jihad's post seem more tolerant and intelligent to me...so I dont really care as it is for the better either way.

 

[bhudmaash]

Pretend I, an atheist, have the same moral and ethical principals as you. Pretend I have the same goals for humanity. Pretend I have the same respect and awe for nature and the universe.

What does sufism offer me? Why should I be compelled to learn more about its teachings? Can I not come to the same conclusions on my own through free thought? Or is sufism more like a guide with bits of information to pick and choose as needed?

why spend time learning about anything?
why place so much in learning about shakespaere, Marx? Jung? Freud? I'm sure you have devoted a lot of time studying those and others, then why not Sufism too?

The Prophet Mhamed (SAW) said of this life: Imagine crossing a huge desert from one end to the other, taking you many years. During your journey you rest under a palm tree for shade for an hour or two...that is how significant this life is.
For us 3 scores years and ten or whatever the average life is of man, is but a mere drop in the ocean in the larger scheme of things.
What islam does is redress the balance, and take our focus away from the worldly matters, and tries to raise our awarness of matters that are spiritual,..thats all.

 

[fadingCaptain]

bhud,

why spend time learning about anything?

I see your point.

What islam does is redress the balance, and take our focus away from the worldly matters, and tries to raise our awarness of matters that are spiritual,..thats all.

Ok, but I might find it hard to understand/accept the 'spiritual' bits as I am quite the skeptic but I will try.

 

[bhudmaash]

...so I got you down as a "convert" then?(!)

....man I should be on commission, get 5 converts in a month and u get an all expenses paid trip to the Bahamas....or something