Sufi-Islamic Philosophy : Allah (1) and His 99 Attributes

[Allahs_Mathematics]

First the math . I have poundered several theories concerning the question of the 1 Allah and his 99 divisions , and the possibility of each of the 99 to be devided 99 ways , but what i wanted to do is sort of categorize these attributes of Allah philosophically . That way perhaps a better understanding is gained of why exactly 1=99 . Ofcourse mathematically its explainable because 99+1=100 , while 999+=1000 . Allah is always 1 , and when he is added as part of the 99 U get 100 , whitch is the same as 1 but on 2 levels higher .

But I figured if the 99 could be divided in some way , the division would somehow possibly correlate some philosophical way , proving again that Allah is 1 , from different angles than the mathematical one I presented .

So for the 99 Attributes of Allah . I have seen several different intepretations , some included Allah as one of the 99 whitch would create a whole new problem , does anybody who has studied the Qu'ran for a moment know how exactly this difference can accur ? Thus I will post one I found more logical , as I encountered several . If there is a special way to number them (whitch one comes first) , any other than the way following , please let me know .

Moderator edit:
There are many of these types of lists on the internet. Since the list posted here was obviously copied and not attributed to any one site, I provide a link to one such site:
http://www.darulhuda.org/islamic_info/attributes_of_Allah.htm
I suggest that the poster reads the cut-and-paste policy for this forum.

Now I will try to somehow categorize these 99 attributes , I was going to do this already and I decided to post it here so that perhaps suggestions can be made . Hey....knowledge is all im looking for I dont wish to make any other point about anything .

1. Ar-Rahman
The Most Merciful

Obviously to have mercy deals with an emotion one has within himself , when he acts less asserted as he might have had without mercy . This emotional proces creates the ethical state of mind coprehending a "good" is done . After this coprehension another emotion evolves causing the feeling of "being good" .
Having mercy itself surely does not "feel good" , it is stimulans to create a situation where one does feel good . But why is mercy then accuring in the first place , would it not be better to not create such an emotion so that u wouldnt feel bad . And so we end up with survival of itself , as being a creauture , trying to perfect itself , creating concepts to uphold its life-expectancy in any way possible . Now basing this on a social contract theory , I believe Ar-Rahman treats people in a manner that if this would be arranged , one must have mercy (ofcourse how many exactly can be calculated somehow) . Thus it deals with relation between people , it is a sort of insurance , it makes sure that people get more than once chance , ofcourse as mercy it assumes the relation u deal with to be hostile in some kind . Mercy U have not with friends , but with enemies , it deals woth tolerating .
If I try to put context on around "mercy" I end up with shit like :I can kill U and I should , but I let U live . If we add a bit romanticism into the idea , we get this kind of heroic behaviour for one to forgive another , perhaps not really forgive , but at least not finsih him off.....that is exactly where mercy came in .


2. Ar-Rahim
The most Compassionate


I believe this to have many similarities with "mercy", the biggest difference I see right now is the relation , compassion is for friends , while mercy is for enemies . But perhaps because it is with another relation , somehow there appears a difference in how the emotion exactly is itself . Obviously U find that some friend (at least somebody on your + side) is doing bad somehow , this affect u and u feel bad , it is then compassion what makes u act in such a way that U create (or try to do so) a better situation for the person on your + . How the emotion is exactly presented differs with mercy , I believe this is caused by the person in the very first place , I couldnt come up with any other differences yet . Now this can be viewed from different ethical theories , ofcourse social contract and psychological egoism , but also care ethics . We need to take care oneanother , this would increase a situation where our social lives are much more fulfilling , than we are not taking care of oneanother . Our psychology is designed in such a way , that we have respect for mercy , and appreciate compassion .

More to follow..........
Constructive comments or correct criticism greatly appreciated

 

[heflores]

Allah Mathematics,

Tell me how a Suffi muslim is different from me for instance. I'm a muslim who says La Illah Illa Allah Wa Anna Muhammed Rasoul Allah, who reads the quran a little, prays sometimes, Fast, know the 99 names of god, love god, busy being a wife and raising a family.....What is Suffism and what is the need of forming a new cult?

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

A short encyclopedic discription u can find here : http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0847120.html

If U hit google you'll end up with enough about Sufi .

Sufi has many ways , many variations , first of all ist not some "new cult" , its something that has been around since the beginning of Islam . It contains Islamic-philosophy , mysticism , mathematical approach of the Qu'ran , breathing (+pronouncing) , meditation......think of a buddhist socrates with the Qu'ran and u got sufism .

Now what im doing here I dunno how exactly Sufi would approach this , I am not well learned (yet) .....Im merely following some paths and trying to figure our some stuff , to me Sufi firstly represents the approach of the scriptures etc . It is mysticism , spirituality , mathematics , its all Sufi . A regular would muslim would indeed know the 99 names of Allah , but the Sufi would know why Allah has these 99 names . The muslim would say his Shadahah , the Sufi would know what exactly the Shadahah means and why , the muslim says Alif Lam Mim is only known by God , the Sufi tries to get as close as possible to God (even becoming God) to find out what this means . Everything that the muslims take for true and grandted , the Sufi studies and questions and wonders . And thats one of the problems the Sufi has had during history with the orthodox muslims , he is being called blasphemous , all that bullshit , because people cant handle another approach of Islam than the religious approach . Where religious Islam ends Sufi Islam begins . If u would read the quotes I and another have posted on that thread Ud now what the fuss is all about .

But I have a question about the 99 names as I was studying them . I do not understand why I am finding different names in different chronology , and here I have one that even includes Allah to be the first name : http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/Wordformat/TheExplanationofthePerfectNamesofAllah.doc

compare this to my list , its different, why ?
Whats up with this mixup ?

 

[heflores]

Mathematics,
I'm not going to dwell on the list that you have send me for a simple reason. I don't like to admit that god has only 99 names. When I read the Quran, I don't see a reference to the fact that god's names are 99. Only people taking the names out of context and counting them make it so....I have also noticed that the order, type, and number of names differ from source to another. I myself have found more names out of the Quran. I like the list below because it shows the Ayyah that the name was taken out of, so maybe it's kindda accurate, but I still found some errors and even saw more names in the Quran...

http://www.pearls.org/names/99names.html

As far as Suffis, I know they are not crazy fanatic cult. I have seen them do many physical excercise...good excercise to reach a certain mental level. It's cool....but still, doesn't imply that they know more or less than any other muslim....Our only goal in this life is to reach TAQWA as best as we can. God will purify us at the end if we are deemed fit.....Someone might reach his Taqwa working on a construction site, other raising children, other in a mosque, ect....

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

TAQWA

One thing when orthodoxly interpreted the Sufis had great problems with . And I agree with them .

As far as I am concerned the TAQWA is either one big fat lie to keep the mobs ignorant (as if something in addition to normality is necersarry to acchieve this ) , or there is another meaning of it .

I dont fear Allah
I dont fear punishment in the next life
I dont fear punishment in this life
I dont hope of worldly reward
I dont hope of the reward of the next world
I dont fear the reckoning

Again you are interpreting everything from your orthodox Sunni point of view , I imagine how hard it must have been for the Sunni (and Shiaa) muslims to accept Sufi knowledge (I mean all Sufi are mostly Sunni or Shiaa) . All this is truley emotional (fear , hope , faith) , Im not dealing with merely the emotional . Emotion of fear is nothing but a chemical reaction(to certain circumstances) in my body , fear and Allah have little to with eachother , you see it is indeed as the Qu'ran puts it . It is people who fear of Allah , it is not like Allah fears anything himself .

As far as I can tell , the Taqwa is a tool for those who do not know , so that they may live a peacefull life .

Thanks for the link , toobad the names r not in Arabic though .
I agree with you I have seen many versions (indeed man made) , but I just hoped Id find one that is correct , so that I dont have to get them out of the Qu'ran myself . Now what you say about being more than 99 , perhaps certain names arent well trasnlated , or arent names at all......or i dunno , I do know that there is a huge mathematics problem if indeed there are more or less than 99 , because Allah is 1 , making it 100 whitch is again 1 .

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
As far as I am concerned the TAQWA is either one big fat lie to keep the mobs ignorant (as if something in addition to normality is necersarry to acchieve this ) , or there is another meaning of it .

I dont fear Allah
I dont fear punishment in the next life
I dont fear punishment in this life
I dont hope of worldly reward
I dont hope of the reward of the next world
I dont fear the reckoning

Again you are interpreting everything from your orthodox Sunni point of view ,

Math, what orthothox are you talking about. I don't believe at all that woman for example should be covered. I don't belive we are required to eat with the right hand, or for our men to grow beards. Hell, I don't even believe that muslim womens should not marry christian or jewish men. So please define your orthosox muslim sunni ways that you are telling me. I have never been taught Islam with the exception of me lifting up the Quran and reading on my own. I don't go to mosque except the one time I went to Mekkah for pilgrimage.

As far as Taqwa. Taqwa mean self restraint. The capability is all within us and doesn't require external intervention. It is difficult concept, but I sure can use it's application some time. When god is in your mind and the fear of god is overwheming you, you can't help but self restrain or Taqwa from the bad, because you feel like you're constantly in god's presense. I sure hope you don't call Taqwa a lie because it's all over the Quran. God went to the extent of saying that the only criteria he will use to distinguish between his servants is by their TAQWA, i.e. how much they self restained in tough situations.

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

Math, what orthothox are you talking about.

By orthodox I simply mean traditional , I understand that from your perspective traditional is as you mention covering etc....thats not orthodox from my perspective . Orthodox from my perspective is this emotional (fear/hope/faith) approach of the Qu'ran , through religion (traditions/culture) , instead of the philosophical/spiritual/mental meaning .

As far as Taqwa. Taqwa mean self restraint

I perfectly understand the Taqwa (at least the traditional intepretation) , but again remeber your approach to the Qu'ran as the word of God . As you read it from the perspective of the people , i read it from Gods perspective . Allah doesn subject to the Taqwa , the Taqwa is for the people , a tool......The Qu'ran as you view it as the one being told , Im viewing it as the teller , Allah .

I understand how u explain the Taqwa because u are in Gods presence because of the fear , but I am in nobody's presence but my own , do I fear myself ? I have already told you I do not believe in the combination of some godly force with human characteristics , and that is what religion teaches . IF God is truth , then God either is a force unpersonal , without perfection or imperfection , and we would have to see God as some system , as the Tao considers . But if that is the way , the Qu'ran , bible , Thorah are all useless bunch of bullshit , as far as theology goes . It cant be a human-like force , God has not created me in His own image , if not it is so that I create myself in my own image , thus I am God . The kingdom of God is within you , were one of the words directly from Issa's mouth but left out of the bible so the church would remain powerfull .

Now if I would compare my views to yours , Id say your orthodox , wouldnt u agree ?

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
God has not created me in His own image , if not it is so that I create myself in my own image , thus I am God . The kingdom of God is within you , were one of the words directly from Issa's mouth but left out of the bible so the church would remain powerfull .

Now if I would compare my views to yours , Id say your orthodox , wouldnt u agree ?

God never said in the Quran that man is created in his image. I believe this is a corruption and wrong translation found in the bible that is the cause of confusion of many. God said that he created as followers: Khalifas, are followers. Please show me any Quranic verses that say that we are created in god's image.

The Cow
[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.


Because of my understanding of my creation math is to be a follower, that I would never be independant from god. I would never think that god is in me. God is separate and much larger than my mind can comprehend...Afterall...I can't find the exact verse but it says something like:

"It is not fit for god to see his servants but from behind a veil......something about us dying instantly and all respite finishing if god lifted the veil. The prophets veils were lightened by god to recieve the message, yet it was never removed all together as you suggest in Suffism.

Please don't say I'm orthosox, it is very arrogant for you to try to characterise me while I have not done the same to you.....I say, you have no business but to characterise yourself.

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

Please don't say I'm orthosox, it is very arrogant for you to try to characterise me while I have not done the same to you.....I say, you have no business but to characterise yourself.

Why do u consider orthodoxism so negatiove , it is merely a traditional view . Why do u think I am being arrogant by saying you are orthodox , there is no hidden evil in the word orthodox .

I understand you are not orthodox concerning yourself (there are people who think they are , but they dont understand relativity that well) , you are only orthodox compared to me , you might be futuristic compared to others . To yourself you are merely you , is it not ?

But I wont call you orthodox , if this offends you , Ill refer as Sunni from now on ok ?

God never said in the Quran that man is created in his image. I believe this is a corruption and wrong translation found in the bible that is the cause of confusion of many. God said that he created as followers: Khalifas, are followers. Please show me any Quranic verses that say that we are created in god's image.

Ok , my bad , so thats the bible's idea . But my major point is hardly damaged by this , as I read about Allah , i read about something with humane characteristics , and some of these characteristics are emotional , and I know enough about emotion to understand its a hoax . I know why man/woman feels this or that , I know why he/she has to , its all for the benefit of living , and continuing to live , to reproduce , to never end . If anything superior to me has my own systematics , it is not superior to me , only in quantity . Do you cionsider your God merely of another q

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

Please don't say I'm orthosox, it is very arrogant for you to try to characterise me while I have not done the same to you.....I say, you have no business but to characterise yourself.

Why do u consider orthodoxism so negatiove , it is merely a traditional view . Why do u think I am being arrogant by saying you are orthodox , there is no hidden evil in the word orthodox .

I understand you are not orthodox concerning yourself (there are people who think they are , but they dont understand relativity that well) , you are only orthodox compared to me , you might be futuristic compared to others . To yourself you are merely you , is it not ?

But I wont call you orthodox , if this offends you , Ill refer as Sunni from now on ok ?

God never said in the Quran that man is created in his image. I believe this is a corruption and wrong translation found in the bible that is the cause of confusion of many. God said that he created as followers: Khalifas, are followers. Please show me any Quranic verses that say that we are created in god's image.

Ok , my bad , so thats the bible's idea . But my major point is hardly damaged by this , as I read about Allah , i read about something with humane characteristics , and some of these characteristics are emotional , and I know enough about emotion to understand its a hoax . I know why man/woman feels this or that , I know why he/she has to , its all for the benefit of living , and continuing to live , to reproduce , to never end . If anything superior to me has my own systematics , it is not superior to me , only in quantity . Do you cionsider your God merely of another quantity than yourself ? Id say u dont . I do . I have compassion , he is the most compasionate , know what i mean ?

Because of my understanding of my creation math is to be a follower, that I would never be independant from god. I would never think that god is in me. God is separate and much larger than my mind can comprehend...Afterall...I can't find the exact verse but it says something like:
It is not fit for god to see his servants but from behind a veil......something about us dying instantly and all respite finishing if god lifted the veil. The prophets veils were lightened by god to recieve the message, yet it was never removed all together as you suggest in Suffism.

But I dont suggets its removed altogether in Sufism . Ultimatly Allah is there where external and internal become one , and now as I am mostly internally understanding things , Im figuring out the external , and try to combine them . I have no answer yet , but Im working on it . And thats a question that theology always dealt with , god is not only all good(ethics) and all beautifull(aesthetics) , but also omnipotent(ontology) and omniscient (epistemology) . Now I know ethics and aesthetics come from within , and I know how they function outside of me , epistemology and ontology are a bit more complicated I am affraid . I simply dont know .

either way I have found certain things that clearly show God to be the perfection of ethics and aesthetics , and I know ethics and aesthetics come from me , I make it up , it my own imagination , its not absolute ot objective or whatever , it exists outsiode of me as I create it to exist outside of me .

When it comes to ethics and aesthetics I am the superior creator there is no doubt about that in my mind . Allah then is the perfection of this within me (and without as without is my own creation) .

And to add on Sufism : Id say sufism STARTS from within trying to understand whats on the outside , while Sunni/Shiaa starts from the outside trying to understand whats within .

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
Why do u consider orthodoxism so negatiove , it is merely a traditional view . Why do u think I am being arrogant by saying you are orthodox , there is no hidden evil in the word orthodox .

The word is so negative, at least in my head it has negative dark cloud surrounding it. I hate the word traditional, fundemental, ect..ect...

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
To yourself you are merely you , is it not ?
But I wont call you orthodox , if this offends you , Ill refer as Sunni from now on ok ?

I like the part of I'm me, but oh no, I'm not sunni, by any means, I'm not sunni. I'm just a muslim, does that sect of Islam, of just being muslim, still exist?

 

[Tiassa]

Having run my printer out of ink ....

Having run my printer out of ink, and with a new cartridge actually low on the priority list, I'm left reading through the topic post on the monitor, which doesn't do a whole lot for the deeper considerations. (A matter of methodology is all.)

Incidentally, Sufi authors frequently assert that Sufism itself predates Islam; Gairdner° notes of the sixth stage of Sufi training--El Nafsu-l-Mardiyya--

This is a higher Stage than the last (e.g. El Nafsu-l-Radiya), inasmuch as it is better to realize that one is the object of Allah's satisfaction than that one is satisfied oneself. And with this realization, the aspirant knows that he is now free totally to abandon all religious observances, whether Sunni prayer of Sufi Dhikr. He has no further need of them. Some, however, keep on some of these practices. If he uses the Dhikr, the name commemorated in it is LATIF! (Kind!)

In truth, vulgar (common) Islam° is something that I do not know beyond a mere sprinkling; I found a ten year-old paper I wrote for a 100-level history class at the University of Oregon, and it's actually quite humorous in its simplicity. I know little more today about Islam itself, and much more about Islamic-related politics than I did then. Of course, there is always the possibility that I have not learned anything. Islam is, in fact, something I largely ignored outside of the political dynamic until I stumbled across Sufism.

I know that somewhere I have a note on how Sufism came to its Islamic associations, but I can't find that at present. In the meantime, one of my favorite quotes describing Sufism comes from Adilbai Kharkovli:

(T)he phrase Sufism is the inner aspect of religion can quite easily be seen as meaning: Sufi teachings, over a period of time, become covered by social, emotional and other accretions which are stabilized into religions. The living tradition of the Sufis, however, continues. Viewed from the religionist's standpoint, of course, the Sufi element is the inward component, and the rest is the balance of the religion.°

Notes:

° Gairdner, Canon W.H.T. "Theories, Practices and Training-Systems of a Sufi School". From Sufi Thought and Action. Ed. Idries Shah. London: Octagon, 1990. pp. 156-157.

Original publication note: "Originally published as 'The Way' of a Mohammedan Mystic, in Muslim World 2 (1912) pp 171-181."

° vulgar Islam: I use the word "vulgar" in relation to groups frequently. I refer to vulgar Christianity, in this case, vulgar Islam, and I suppose I could probably refer to the US as a vulgar democracy. It's a conventional word in my lexicon, and in light of the posts concerning words like "orthodox", I thought it perhaps best to clarify myself.

° Adilbai Kharkovli: Also included in Shah, Sufi Thought and Action, follow the hyperlink above for a related Sciforums topic that includes citation data.


Oh, yeah ... as to the topic ... A/M ... I'm going to have to give more thought before directly commenting on the topic post. My exposure to Islamic ideas has never included a religious faith of my own, so it'll take me a few tries to get what it is you're aiming after.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

The word is so negative, at least in my head it has negative dark cloud surrounding it. I hate the word traditional, fundemental, ect..ect...

Hey...thats the negative meaning you give it

Let me tell you though , that if you try and de-connect the emotional meaning of the world and the rational meaning of the word , you could actually create a psychology in whitch less chance you have to be confronted with words that gove you bad feelings , it could actually make a person happier .

I like the part of I'm me, but oh no, I'm not sunni, by any means, I'm not sunni. I'm just a muslim, does that sect of Islam, of just being muslim, still exist?

Ok..ur not Sunni either , but I am sure at least the theology you share with the Sunni dont you ?
And that was where I was aiming at with orthodox , the way Jews and Christians (except for the trinity/issa thing) view God is the same (more or less in basics) as about every Muslim , and you as well .

Incidentally, Sufi authors frequently assert that Sufism itself predates Islam

I would agree , if only for one thing : The Salaat (prayer with kneeling toward Ka'aba) was made long before the Qu'ran was written , and if I am correct Sufi see much importance in the breething/kneeling(Tai-Chi-like) aspect of it .

But I do believe traditional understanding of the start of Sufism (in islamic forms anyways) came right after Imam Ali .

I know that somewhere I have a note on how Sufism came to its Islamic associations, but I can't find that at present. In the meantime, one of my favorite quotes describing Sufism comes from Adilbai Kharkovli:

I am going to bring that subject back to life after I have read it , it seems very interesting .

Oh, yeah ... as to the topic ... A/M ... I'm going to have to give more thought before directly commenting on the topic post. My exposure to Islamic ideas has never included a religious faith of my own, so it'll take me a few tries to get what it is you're aiming after.

well , Im not after a religious meaning of Islam , what I am after is the philosophical/spiritual/mathematical meaning of Islam , and a new and better understanding of its theology .

Religion = fixed theology + tradition/culture/customs .
Im not really into that (other than for anthropological info) .

 

[Tiassa]

Allah's Mathematics

well , Im not after a religious meaning of Islam , what I am after is the philosophical/spiritual/mathematical meaning of Islam , and a new and better understanding of its theology .

Most excellent, and I hope to contribute to that larger understanding. However, it changes none the fact that my examinations of Islam are largely "intellectual" and hardly "spiritual". Write it up to my poor expression ...

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
Let me tell you though , that if you try and de-connect the emotional meaning of the world and the rational meaning of the word , you could actually create a psychology in whitch less chance you have to be confronted with words that gove you bad feelings , it could actually make a person happier .

I think I can relate to that. Last year, I over exerted myself in studying and got a phsycosis episode where I totally disconnected for a couple of days from myself. I had religious and political visions that were so real. I relived wonderfull and scary episodes of creations and judgement. I judged myself terribly, and all without taking any drugs or anything....I was diagnosed later as bipolar manic depressant, with first episode at 28 years old. Please don't make fun of me, Lincoln and Churchill and other good people had it. Since then, I have been determined to relax and live a conventional life and never to exert my brain again.....I'm one of those people with a very light veil, and although I like my creativity, I hate the emotional roller coaster that my brain sends me to, and I don't like what I saw on the other side, so no meditation for me, no emotional involvement in religion and politics, nothing but innocence playing with kids and occasional no brainer sciforum...I'm actually scared of reading the Quran, because the Quran have so many complicated ideas with so much meaning that would send me permanently to the mental ward......so I'm shutting my brains off until I leave this earth for real.

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

However, it changes none the fact that my examinations of Islam are largely "intellectual" and hardly "spiritual". Write it up to my poor expression ...

Actually I was merely using that incorrect , as far as spirituality connects with the soul , I dont recognize any soulish activity other than consciousness in reason and emotion , thus the spirit would not be any more than my intellect .

Now i used spiritual in the sense that it deals with cosnciousness in the way peoples call things spiritual , as in meditative , and sufi as it places plenty though on breathing processes etc , i considered therefore spiritual .

If i am to define it correctly i would end up with intellectual as well .

Please don't make fun of me, Lincoln and Churchill and other good people had it

I will if u dont stop calling peoples like lincoln and churchill "good'

I'm actually scared of reading the Quran, because the Quran have so many complicated ideas with so much meaning that would send me permanently to the mental ward......so I'm shutting my brains off until I leave this earth for real.

If i could give u advise , I would say that you're incorrect in not confronting yourself with who you are (emotional , intellectual etc) . You should not fear yourself , but try and understand why everything works the way it does , although as you have children and responsabilities I do suggest no to take it further than necesarry , there are priorities I believe . But as far as you can , you should try and discover what exactly your thoughts are , and not try to ignore them , rather try and understand why certain aspects are linked with negative emotions , it will help you alot if you become consicous of yourself . Fear whatever you want , as long as you do never fear yourself . If you dare to confront whatever your thoughts present you , you will give your thoughts to bring it under consciousness , so that you may deal better with problems and negativity related to this fearing of yourself . Always remember that whatever your mind confronts you with , Allah whilst it for you to be confronted with it . Only Allah is the creator of Intelligence , Ignorance is the devils responsibility .

Salaam

 

[heflores]

Most Excellent things that I have ever heard. I need to hand you $200 dollars, and a license to to practice phsyciatry...I"m serious.

What is your method for studying the Quran. Do you read a little every night, do you start from the beginning to end and repeat, how do you deconnect the emotional and rational meaning of the world and extract the pure meaning?

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by heflores
I'm actually scared of reading the Quran, because the Quran have so many complicated ideas with so much meaning that would send me permanently to the mental ward......so I'm shutting my brains off until I leave this earth for real.

All the inspired scriptures emphasize one thing. they tell, as a matter of fact, our ignorance and egoism are the only barrier that stands between God and our pure self. it is not that they say we are insignificant before God but, they emphasize, the God is so Great that it is silly to think we human beings (the best of them or meanest of them) are on our own and self significant.

It makes me to wonder how some people think of themselves that they are whips and servants of God (they are in all religions). who gave them that authority.. doing dastardly acts in the name of God.. they build a pathetic wall of ego and too much of self-significance between them and Almighty.. forgetting that His mere Will will prevail without any human service..!

there is no point in going deeper into the hidden meaning in scriptures. for me it is sufficient to get the message - God is beyond good and evil and he never hates people (may be getting angry doesn't amount to hatred..! that too i doubt - whether God could get angry.. its all our speculations..) cuz after all He is the creator (ofcourse of our souls). and why hundred / thousand attributes.. they may be countless..!

Trust in God.. trust that He never lets us down when we resign to the fact that it is He, is the only and final refuge for us. If one fears/admires God then he/she fears nothing-else.

excuse me for the lengthy post.. after reading ur post i remembered ur post in another thread about being scared of God..!
if u don't agree with my points just ignore.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by everneo
there is no point in going deeper into the hidden meaning in scriptures. for me it is sufficient to get the message - God is beyond good and evil and he never hates people (may be getting angry doesn't amount to hatred..! that too i doubt - whether God could get angry.. its all our speculations..) cuz after all He is the creator (ofcourse of our souls). and why hundred / thousand attributes.. they may be countless..!

Trust in God.. trust that He never lets us down when we resign to the fact that it is He, is the only and final refuge for us. If one fears/admires God then he/she fears nothing-else.

excuse me for the lengthy post.. after reading ur post i remembered ur post in another thread about being scared of God..!
if u don't agree with my points just ignore.

Everneo, I didn't used to be that scared of god, I mean terrified, I actually used to enjoy reading scriptures with open mind and used to think that god is an object of love and all positive. I saw the positive side of the scriptures, the good, the heaven, the mercifull, the compassion....ect....I tried to associate things in my life with the scriptures to gauage how I'm doing.......I was always until the last year an incredibely positive person with great initiative and really a pink rosey outlook to anything. I must have suffered some contradictions in my brain, the consious side stored all the positive and gave me incentive to go on, while the negative stuff went hiding in my subconsious.....I never really processed the negative or justified it. .When the contradictions in my head peaked, I collapsed, things had to get sorted out in there....My subconsious was too full of things that I purposely ignored. After my episode though, my brain now for some reason, wants to dwell on the negative...I guess it convinced itself that it's a waste of time to dwell on the positive, because there is nothing to worry about from the positive things...If I have learned anything from my episode, was that the negative must be confronted on a regular basis.....It's the negative that we have to worry about and plan for...... The problem when you confront the negatives though that you fear god and overjudge yourself, just like those Shiaa do with the Whips...I know it's rediculous, but I'm trying to find my balance... I know I have to find a balance, a balance between tursting god in my heart and understanding the scriptures correctly so that I can have assurance that my actions and believes are in line with the object of my trust.

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

heflores

Most Excellent things that I have ever heard. I need to hand you $200 dollars, and a license to to practice phsyciatry...I"m serious.

Now u take that 200$ thank Allah and give it to a worthy cause .

Hey and on psychiatry , I consider them all a bunch of wankers who merely try to repress (just as every other discipline tries) instead of solve so that it wont happen again . What psychiatrist do to people does not deal with the cause one bit , its in the same category as other medicine , all oppressing ones problems , instead of offering a solution . Perhaps its so because all medication is man made (drugs) , and man is an ignorant Satan who only wants to repress instead of solve , because solfing deals with long term and repression with short & fast .
When a person has a headache he doesnt care to analyze why , how etc , so that he knows not to let it happen again , he simply takes an asperine so that he may enjoy his next hours without dealing with his problem , so that it will return . This is just how psychiatry works .

What is your method for studying the Quran. Do you read a little every night, do you start from the beginning to end and repeat, how do you deconnect the emotional and rational meaning of the world and extract the pure meaning?

My method is kind of disciplineless , but you must understand first why and how it can be this way . I wasnt raised on the Qu'ran , i knew the very basics of God and the first Abrahamic book I started to read was the Bible . Long before the Bible I already denounced "faith" , because I couldnt agree with the concepts one bit , and I even got mad at ever being tricked into praying (I didnt ever make salaat but I do know one prayer from my youth :

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim
Qul , Huwa Allahu Ahad
Allahu Samad
Lam Yalid Aa Lam Yulad
Wa-Lam Yakun Lahu Qufuun Ahad

I didnt even know what it meant (untill recent)

C my point with "faith" ?
faith I consider same category as fear & hope , emotions that should not be allowed to make decisions .

As I denounced religion , I created space for philosophy , and its not untill quite recently that I imagined my own concepts of theology (I was always into everything as long as God didnt have anything to do with it) , and as I am now reading the Qu'ran (something I havent been doing for a long time and I do it English , Im learning Arabic (through Qu'ran Im trying as well)) .

I read the Qu'ran now and then , not schedualed just when I feel like reading it (it has no certain special pressure since I treat the qu'ran equal as other scriptures and writings so that if it is superior it can show superiority without my biasedness) . So I read it at leasure , and when i read it i try to analyze who is saying what to who , and not trying to becoming emotionally involved (unles I want so) . Now for that not becoming emotionally involved , that deals with the distinction u need to make when u read ANY text .

Each and every word has a certain emotional effect on us , as we identify a word with a philosophy/theory we have of that word , we also identify feelings that are connected to this theory . Freud has done great studies on these phenomena's , and even todays scientology (yes yes they're not as ridiciouless as they seem) follows in freuds footsteps with their dianetics . People identify (equalize) each single thing with the other as they record it at some shared time . For instance . I have an accident , while Im having it I see some newspaper , i smell some hot dogs , i hear some song . Now what one's psychology does as it is defected (traumatized) at that moment , it records and mixes up ANY facts , and relates them to one and the same emotion the person experienced when he had the car accident , lets say that was fear . Now this fear reappears whenever he hears that particular sound , smells hot dogs etc . It is completely irrational for the person to connect those facts through one emotion , yet he does so and some independant thing gets some meaning that is emotionally and not rationally decided . Now this is somewhat lame example , and its not just with some accident as a traumatic situation , its any emotion related issue that creates some small trauma in your psyche , and as a reaction your psyche relates it to some emotion , an emotion you either experience positive or negative .

Here's an example , you already have an idea of what is positive and what is negative havent you . Take that negative/positive theology thread for instance , the person starting it has some idea of the concept , but that idea Im sure isnt determined by some rules or intelectual processes or theories , but just by some feeling of good(positive) and bad(negative) . We as rational creatures should be aware that nothing is just negative or postive or good or bad , all these things that are related to emotions . We should try and think why we have a certain negative feeling with this and a positive feeling with that .

For instance , that word orthodox we spoke of . You obviously hate the word and I totally understand it . I assume it is so that u have images of Taliban , Burqa , Stoning , etc , is it not ? U obviously dissaprove of these concepts , and so u assign a negatiove feeling to them , as your mind identified these concepts of being orthodox . But are you correct in doing so ? Now lets assume for sake of argument that these Taliban/Burqa/Stoning (Im oversimplifying I know) concepts indeed correctly identify with Islam Orthodox m thats still not Orthodox in general . Have you ever heard of Buddhist Orthodox , or Buddhist Fundamental , or Buddhist Traditional ? Perhaps not , because perhaps they use other words for it , other descriptions , or perhaps because you have never heard of it . Now this is interesting , because it is the actual meaning of the word that is important , not your negative identification of it . What does orthodox mean ? Nothing but old , before , past , pre , all that stuff , it merely points to a time before you . Now why in Gods name would something that merely points to a time before you be negative , in the propably ethical understanding of negative that you have ?

So lets say ur this Indian kid , whose elders have taught her Buddhism of its oldest form , one would call it Traditional . Now as buddhism knows quite some religious aspects , lets say these people as they fallow the traditional way , they follow the way only of Siddharta , and Siddharta did not have all these customs Buddhist sect put into the philosophy or doctrine . So these people would consider all this verty good , pure etc , as they hear the word orthodox (well in their understaning and languag) what feeling do you think they have , a feeling as negative as yours ?
I dont think so .

Now back to the Qu'ran , you spoke of Judging yourself harsh and negative , you spoke of emotional concepts of the Qu'ran , perhaps you feel these judging aspects as you read the book , perhaps that is why it makes u affraid , because you feel u will be judged negative by it . My question then , where does the Qu'ran say heflores (xcuse me i dont know ur real name ) , point me where it says please ? It says Allah , Israel and others , it doesnt say heflores . So why would u feel judged ? Ofcourse because God is talking to you through the book , that is why you feel judged by reading it , but what happens when this accurs . When this accurs you attain this traumatic state , you read the words of Allah in fear , now tell me how in Gods name will you understand these words correctly if you will read from this point of view , from this bias ? You wont , and even worse , it will just make you feel worse . Now as you would consider the Qu'ran as any other book inorder for the Qu'ran itself to show superiority , not you hiding from it . Allah doesnt show his superiority because others fear him , others fear him because he IS superior . As you are on his side why do you fear him ? Do you fear a friend ? Oh gee , I dont wanna sound to Christian-like , xcuse me Ill take that back (see how I irrationaly relate God on your side to this all-good all-loving buddy Christ , because its words like friend that they use when they speak of buddy Christ ) . Yet what is pure and perfect shouldnt not be feared , it should be approach , and as you approach it you will find the fear for what is bad and imperfect going down , Ull feel happier trust me .

Now as you feel that you failed Allah , and it is because of that why u fear him as you identify yourself with an evil doer , no crying evil doer would have enough space in his psyche to let in an intelligent understanding of what he has done . So the crybaby just cries and doesnt get it . He doesnt see because his eyes are filled with tears .

Some time I will post a nice break down of an Ayaat or Surrah as I see it , as soon as I have reached the point where I find myself doing such a thing .

If I have learned anything from my episode, was that the negative must be confronted on a regular basis

U have learned a valuable lesson , but dont leave positive out .
Most importantly you should learn to understand why X is considered either positive or negative , that way u can regulate them yourself , this sound ridicouless but for some while u should write down as you come in touch with some concept/situations , why exactly you consider this negative or positive . A worthy analysis could follow believe me .

The problem when you confront the negatives though that you fear god and overjudge yourself, just like those Shiaa do with the Whips...

Yes that was basically my whole analysys in 13 words thank you . But think about the Shiaa for a minute , and think about the way u dislike their ways , this - hanging over their name : SHIAA , and connect to your own compare between yourself and the Shiaa .

understanding the scriptures correctly

And this be my final word on it for now , my final argument why u should let go of irrtational emotional concept even if it is to do so by denying it is you who Allah is speaking to (U know my personal point of view) , so that you may understand clearly .
Surely that is Allahs ultimate goal is it not , for you to know and understand ? Think about this : Would Allah rather have someone that submits out of fear , or someone that submits out of knowledge . Id say the one submitting from fear does not submit at all to Allah , but to Shaitan . One of the greater Sufi clearly stated , how he wishes to worship Allah , but not because he longs to heaven or fears hell .

I cant remember who Im sure Ill mention it some day

Oh and a good read (at least certain aspects of it) is :
Sigmund Freud - psychopathology of everyday life
I could send u if u wish , I have it in PDF .

Salaam