Structure in the Qu'ran?
- Thread starter invert_nexus
- Start date
Well back in the day when Allah was revealing the quran he got a brilliant idea that he would reveal it in such a way as to spell allah when used in conjunction with a certain type of graph arranged in a certain way that people would use many centuries in the future (for allah is all knowing, and allah knows best). Yet another scientific miracle of the noble quranDoctorNO said:Can anybody show us how the graph spells out Allah in arabic? Somebody please connect the dots.
Depending on the result DoctorNO might just convert to Islam.
PS Early statisticians lacking the knowledge we have today could only manage to spell the word sheep ......and allah was sorely displeased
Preacher_X
Registered Senior Member
Path those stupid articles about the Quran being multiple aithors are mainly beacause of lack or undertsanding.
its the stupidest thing ive heard... if the Quran has a different surah order (chpater order), what difference does it make. you dont underatnd arabic either, there are differnt ways of writing arabic, even thoug their mean stays 100% EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY the same for example in the last word of a sentence you can either commbine the letters and pronounce it as one word or say the letters serperatley.
and teh Quran was went through a very strict line of authentication, (at the time) was ENTIRELY memoriised by thousands of people and partially by hundreds of thousands. also at the time the and even now the ENTIRE Quran in ramadan was recited infront of thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands etc. people. if the Imam made a mistake (even very slighlty like miss out a letter) then a memeber of the congregation will stop him and correct the error.
its the stupidest thing ive heard... if the Quran has a different surah order (chpater order), what difference does it make. you dont underatnd arabic either, there are differnt ways of writing arabic, even thoug their mean stays 100% EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY the same for example in the last word of a sentence you can either commbine the letters and pronounce it as one word or say the letters serperatley.
and teh Quran was went through a very strict line of authentication, (at the time) was ENTIRELY memoriised by thousands of people and partially by hundreds of thousands. also at the time the and even now the ENTIRE Quran in ramadan was recited infront of thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands etc. people. if the Imam made a mistake (even very slighlty like miss out a letter) then a memeber of the congregation will stop him and correct the error.
Gee preacher what a surprise that you think that, yes you are undoubtedly more of an expert than soemone with a doctorate in the subject and have every right to call him stupid. The articles are posted more for forum members who are not in the grip of islam I don't expect your average muslim to be able to think outside of the box when it comes to what he has been instructed is the truth. You are a parrot nothing morePreacher_X said:
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This from the article on aramaic origins of the Qu'ran. Suliman was teaching about this idea. His students were certainly open to new ideas.
Wonder how high up the window was?By the way, Preacher, you got that history of Abraham compiled yet?
No, it all still comes back to the conflict between Abraham's family so it's a bit of jealousy and spite.
Here's something minor that also explains the root of the conflict between Jews and Arabs:
Abraham had two wives, Sarah and Hagar. One day his favorite wife, Sarah, wanted Isaac to be his heir and he agreed to it. Hagar didn't like Sarah and wanted her son, Ishmael, to be his heir so Sarah told Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away and he did.
While Hagar and Ishmael were travelling away from their old home, they were tired, hungry, and thirsty and Ishmael kicked the sand out of anger and frusteration for what happened and all of a sudden water gushed out from the ground. That was called a miracle with that water coming out and when Abraham heard of it, he decided to build a temple on that spot which is now Mecca.
Time passes and as Isaac and Ishmael's family and offpspring grew and migrated all over, the side of Isaac grew into the race of Jews and Ishmael's grew into Arabs. That's why many things are similar yet are also lots of discomfort between the two (not counting the atrocities that came and blew up in the years to come). That's basically just the starting point of it all. It's also how Abraham is the father of Judaism, Christianity, and Mohammedism.
Oh, and in regards to Judaism, he basically took the existing way of life of the tribes in his surrounding area and told people not to worship idols. Basically the same thing many people of the past such as Buddha and the like told people not to do. And ironically, everyone ends up worshipping idols of them!
- N
Again, the point about the history of Abraham is that it is difficult in the extreme to compile a history of any one character from the Qu'ran (or the whole, for that matter). The references are scattered, and one would have to use their own judgement on which order the particular verses should be incorporated into said history. And I want it in verse form, not paraphrase.
But thanks anyway, Neildo.
But thanks anyway, Neildo.
Well yeah, it is a mess if trying to use the Qu'ran as a historical book because of it's structure being done by surah length and not some chronological order. But that doesn't really make the information any less valuable. You just wind up getting to play historian and researcher trying to put everything in order as was done in the past to form the Old and New Testaments.
But yes, I would think a Moslem would need to read the Bible in order to get a better understanding of their past due to the jumbled nature of their book. To rely on any one book (this goes for all religions) as the end-all be-all of history is naive to the umpteen degree. Anyone who is religious should be required to read every major religous book there is, and not just the one in which their followed religion is. That doesn't make one a traitor or any less dedicated to their followed religion, it just gives them a better understanding of it all.
Each religion is just a basis to kick-start one's self on the path of spirituality. One needn't follow any one organized religion. It's just too bad most people get caught up in the whole pigeonholing of groups. I guess they can't get that taste of highschool out of their mouths.
- N
But yes, I would think a Moslem would need to read the Bible in order to get a better understanding of their past due to the jumbled nature of their book. To rely on any one book (this goes for all religions) as the end-all be-all of history is naive to the umpteen degree. Anyone who is religious should be required to read every major religous book there is, and not just the one in which their followed religion is. That doesn't make one a traitor or any less dedicated to their followed religion, it just gives them a better understanding of it all.
Each religion is just a basis to kick-start one's self on the path of spirituality. One needn't follow any one organized religion. It's just too bad most people get caught up in the whole pigeonholing of groups. I guess they can't get that taste of highschool out of their mouths.
- N
""""""Quran the work of multiple authors""""""""
this is very very silly
the reliable un-Muslims sources know that Quran has never been changed. Hundreds of trials took place in the past to change it. non have succeeded. In South Africa they changed only one word but they discovered it within a day.
this is very very silly
the reliable un-Muslims sources know that Quran has never been changed. Hundreds of trials took place in the past to change it. non have succeeded. In South Africa they changed only one word but they discovered it within a day.
This PM is the problem. Leather, parchment, wooden tablets, bones, soft stones, why where these all used? Why not just stick to parchment and keep the pages in a nice wooden box, with copies in other boxes for safety? There would then be no need to compile them then.Proud_Muslim said:
This mess of bits and pieces, all scattered everywhere, is the cause of the doubt. Where all the revelations collected? Had they been recorded correctly? What was the correct order? Have they been distorted or even forged? We don’t know but the doubts are there.
If the revelations had been preserved properly this would not have been necessary. Nor does it mean that they got it right.
It’s well known that many early Qurans where burnt and some even claim some Suras where edited.
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,
"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).
http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv12.html
abrogated suras
http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv10.html
Question, how long does it take to recite the whole Quran? It’s a very long book and I cannot believe anyone at the time would recite the whole thing in
Preacher_X
Registered Senior Member
Invert, i know the story of Abraham anyway.
and if i wanted too find out, i'd look in the Surahs that were reveled concerning Abraham or about prophets or about the time of Abraham. "Surah Abraham (ibrahim)" will be a good place to start
also the index, or the limitless hadeeth will tell me or i can just look in the Quran.
the Quran is a way of life, it has everything you need to know in Islam.
and if i wanted too find out, i'd look in the Surahs that were reveled concerning Abraham or about prophets or about the time of Abraham. "Surah Abraham (ibrahim)" will be a good place to start
also the index, or the limitless hadeeth will tell me or i can just look in the Quran.
the Quran is a way of life, it has everything you need to know in Islam.
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Preacher_X:
So you're saying that there is a chapter of the Qu'ran that is about Abraham? Well, I don't know about you, but that sounds like structure to me. Why didn't you say that before? Are there chapters about other people too? Are they chronological?
Also, do you know the seven subdivisions in the Qu'ran and what their general themes are? Or of the chronologically ordered version mentioned in the original article Proud Muslim posted? Remember questions a and b so long ago?
You know, for someone with Preacher in their name, you don't do much preaching. Preaching in my thought being teaching what one knows about the religion at hand. All your arguments in this thread seem to be: that's stupid, the Qu'ran is perfect, I know all about it and you don't. Try showing some knowledge instead of just bragging about it.
If you know the story you should be able to list an order of verses that spell it out then. Seems like you make it out as simple as pie. I hesitate to ask you to do this, because the point of this thread is not abraham, but structure in the Qu'ran. And if there's a surah about Abraham, maybe make it a more obscure character.
On the hadeeths, I'm not sure what I think of those. These are like commentaries, right? They tell you how to interpret the different surah's and whatnot? I prefer to be able to gather my own meaning from a book. I would most likely read the commentary and consider it's viewpoint and then make my own decision, but first I like to read the whole work before getting someone else's impression.
Is it true, that translations of the Qu'ran are heretical? I never knew that before. It makes sense, though. I remember seeing documentaries on kids in Afghanistan memorizing the Qu'ran and not understanding a word of it. Makes a lot of sense... not.
And by the way, Preacher, have you memorized the Qu'ran? From the X in your name, can I assume that you're American? A fan of Malcolm X? (Who by the way, was betrayed by his own church. Finally got around to watching Malcom X) Do you understand Arabic?
So you're saying that there is a chapter of the Qu'ran that is about Abraham? Well, I don't know about you, but that sounds like structure to me. Why didn't you say that before? Are there chapters about other people too? Are they chronological?
Also, do you know the seven subdivisions in the Qu'ran and what their general themes are? Or of the chronologically ordered version mentioned in the original article Proud Muslim posted? Remember questions a and b so long ago?
You know, for someone with Preacher in their name, you don't do much preaching. Preaching in my thought being teaching what one knows about the religion at hand. All your arguments in this thread seem to be: that's stupid, the Qu'ran is perfect, I know all about it and you don't. Try showing some knowledge instead of just bragging about it.
If you know the story you should be able to list an order of verses that spell it out then. Seems like you make it out as simple as pie. I hesitate to ask you to do this, because the point of this thread is not abraham, but structure in the Qu'ran. And if there's a surah about Abraham, maybe make it a more obscure character.
On the hadeeths, I'm not sure what I think of those. These are like commentaries, right? They tell you how to interpret the different surah's and whatnot? I prefer to be able to gather my own meaning from a book. I would most likely read the commentary and consider it's viewpoint and then make my own decision, but first I like to read the whole work before getting someone else's impression.
Is it true, that translations of the Qu'ran are heretical? I never knew that before. It makes sense, though. I remember seeing documentaries on kids in Afghanistan memorizing the Qu'ran and not understanding a word of it. Makes a lot of sense... not.
And by the way, Preacher, have you memorized the Qu'ran? From the X in your name, can I assume that you're American? A fan of Malcolm X? (Who by the way, was betrayed by his own church. Finally got around to watching Malcom X) Do you understand Arabic?
Of course, but they don't memorize the pretty sounds it makes without understanding the words. And of course, I always take everything I see on TV with a grain of salt, but the point stands.
edit: by understanding the words, I mean the words themselves, not even delving into the deeper issue of what the words mean as sentences, etc...
edit: by understanding the words, I mean the words themselves, not even delving into the deeper issue of what the words mean as sentences, etc...