Structure in the Qu'ran?

[invert_nexus]

I have asked questions a number of times asking how the Qu'ran deals with specific events in the bible that would also be part of the Qu'ran, i.e. creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, Lot, Abraham. It seemed that no one really wanted to answer my questions. I have recently looked at an english translation of the Qu'ran and now I think I understand why.

It seems that the Qu'ran is not structured as the Bible is structured. It doesn't start with creation, then work it's way through lineages and tell the stories in order. In fact, it almost seems to merely be an addendum to the Bible. Do muslims have to read the Bible to understand what is going on in the Qu'ran? Why is the Qu'ran set up like this? How do you find anything in the Qu'ran?

The Bible starts skipping around later, but the first 5 books are pretty much chronological order. To learn about Abraham, I just have to find where in the chronology he lives and read about him. It seems in the Qu'ran everything is scattered, a little here, a little there. Confusion.

 

[path]

Muhammed left behind a rather messy desk. His writings were later assembled, in no particular order, by his followers into the miracle that is the quran. Do some research and you will see, I ain't a lyin'

 

[invert_nexus]

Nobody has anything helpful to say about trying to make sense of the Qu'ran? I'm not trying to poke fun at your book, I'm trying to understand it. Is there a structure that I'm missing. Does it come later in the book? What's the deal?

I know theres a few muslims here. Why don't you want to help?

 

[invert_nexus]

Do muslims not answer questions unless you insult them first? It seems that if someone posts a rant, muslims are on it like stink on shit. I have a legitimate question and the silence is deafening.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

I have asked questions a number of times asking how the Qu'ran deals with specific events in the bible that would also be part of the Qu'ran, i.e. creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, Lot, Abraham. It seemed that no one really wanted to answer my questions.

This is not true, you did not ask before, you are new to the religion section, I did not see you asking, all questions asked about islam by your were answered.

Do muslims have to read the Bible to understand what is going on in the Qu'ran?

Or shall the christians read the Quran to understand what is going on in the bible ???

Why is the Qu'ran set up like this? How do you find anything in the Qu'ran?

The Quran is structured according to the verses revealed, we have verses which was revealed in Mecca and we call them MECCAN VERSES and others were revealed in Medina and we call them MADANIA verses.

Is The Qur'ân A Shapeless Book?

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirshape.html

The Bible starts skipping around later, but the first 5 books are pretty much chronological order. To learn about Abraham, I just have to find where in the chronology he lives and read about him. It seems in the Qu'ran everything is scattered, a little here, a little there. Confusion.

The Qur'ân was being rearranged in a certain form, under direct divine guidance, by the Holy Prophet (sws). The completion of the arrangement of the Qur'ân was conterminous in time with the completion of its revelation. In respect of order and sequence, therefore, the Qur'ân as it was compiled was different from the Qur'ân as it was revealed. In other words, the Qur'ân had two arrangements, one revelatory and the other compilatory. The question is, why was the revelatory arrangement abandoned in favour of a compilatory arrangement. Was the latter adopted without any special reason? If so, why was chronology not considered a sound enough basis for arranging the Qur'ân? And is one today at liberty to discover, if possible, the chronological arrangement of the Qur'ân and recite the Qur'ân according to that arrangement? Or, if chronology was not an acceptable guide, why was not some rule, that for example of dividing the Qur'ân into sûrahs of about equal length, employed. Nor does the principle of the progressive diminution of the size of sûrahs go very far because the diminution is not so progressive: We frequently find that long sûrahs are followed by shorter sûrahs which are again followed by long sûrahs and so on. The question continues to stare one in the face: Why a different arrangement ?

Imâm Hamîd al-dîn Farâhî (India, d: 1930) gives another answer to the objection. He maintains that the Qur'ân has a most superb structure. The verses and sûrahs of the Qur'ân, he says, are arranged in a magnificent and impeccable order and together form a whole which has remarkable integration and symmetry. And beautiful as that structure is, adds Imâm Farâhî, it is not merely of incidental value; it is essential to the meaning of the Qur'ân, nay, it is the only key there is to the meaning of the Qur'ân.

The seminal ideas of Imâm Farâhî have been expounded by his most eminent disciple, Mawlânâ Amîn Ahsan Islâhî. Taking his cue from the principles his great teacher had enunciated, Mawlânâ Islâhî has written a commentary (in Urdu) on the Qur'ân in which he has shown how the Qur'ân is the systematic book Imam Farâhî claimed it to be. Mawlânâ Islâhî modestly terms his work elaborative, but as anyone can see, it is highly original in any respect. In fact, he is not only the most authentic exponent of Imam Farâhî's thought, he can be said to have new-modelled that thought. Below is given a brief statement of his views on the structure of the Qur'ân. These views have been summarised from the 'Introduction' to 'Tadabbur-i-Qur'ân' (Reflection on the Qur'ân), which is the name of his commentary.

Each Qur'ânic sûrah has a dominant idea, called the axis of that sûrah, around which all the verses of that sûrah revolve. Thus no verse, or no group of verses, stands alone but has a direct relation with the axis of the sûrah and is part of the coherent scheme of the sûrah.

The sûrahs of the Qur'ân exist in pairs, the two sûrahs of any pair being complementary to each other and, together constituting a unit. There are a few exceptions, however. The first sûrah, Fâtihah, does not have a complement, because it is a kind of a preface to the whole of the Qur'ân. All the other exceptions too are not exceptions in the real sense of the word since each one of them is an appendix to one or the other sûrah.

The 114 sûrahs of the Qur'ân fall into seven groups. The first group comes to an end at sûrah 5, the second at sûrah 9, the third at sûrah 24, the fourth at sûrah 33, the fifth at sûrah 49, the sixth at sûrah 66, and the seventh at sûrah 114. Each group contains one or more Makkan sûrahs followed by one or more Madînan sûrahs of the same cast. Like individual sûrahs or each pair of sûrahs, each group has a central theme which runs through all its sûrahs, knitting them into a distinct body. In each group, the themes of the other groups also occur but as subsidiary themes.

Each group logically leads to the next, and thus all the groups become variations on the basic theme of the Qur'ân, which is: 'Allah's call to man to adopt the right path'.
While speaking of coherence in the structure of the Qur'ân, we must distinguish between connectedness and organic unity. A connection, howsoever weird and far-fetched, can be established between any two objects of the universe. But organic unity implies the presence of a harmonious interrelationship between the components of a body or entity which produces a unified whole, a whole which is over and above the sum total or the components of and has worth and meaning in itself. The verses and sûrahs of the Qur'ân are not simply linked up with one another, they have their place, each one of them, in the total scheme of the Qur'ân and are related not only to one another but also to that total framework. The Qur'ân is an organism, of which its verses and sûrahs are organically coherent parts.

Another point to be taken note of is that, as hinted above, the methodicalness of the Qur'ân is not just an incidental matter in the study of the Qur'ân, it is integral to the meaning of the Qur'ân. In plain terms, since the Qur'ân has an organic structure, every verse or group of verses and every sûrah has a definitive context and interpretation of any portion of the Qur'ân must be based on a correct understanding of that context. The Qur'ân is also one of the most unfortunate books in the sense that too often its verses have been torn out of context to prove some particular juristical opinion or sectarian notion and too frequently its terms and phrases have been misconstrued by those who come to it seeking, in some odd verse, support for views they have already formed on other than Qur'ânic grounds. It is indeed a great irony that all heresies have been claimed by their propounders to have their basis in the Qur'ân. And if these heresies looked plausible to many, it was because the context of the verses constituting the so-called 'basis in the Qur'ân' was not properly understood. As Mawlânâ Islâhî has shown, contextualisation gives to countless verses a construction different from the one usually placed on them; it throws new light not only on the doctrinal and creedal aspects of the Qur'ânic message but also on the methodological aspects of the message; it lends new significance not only to the moral and legal injunctions of the Qur'ân but also to the stories and parables narrated by the Qur'ân; and it affords a deep insight not only into the continually changing style and tone of the Qur'ân but also into the varied patterns of logic it employs.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirshape.html

 

[invert_nexus]

Aaargghh!!! I just had this whole post done, then I screwed up and lost it all. Ok, I'll try again.

Thank you for your reply, Proud Muslim, the link you gave above answered my question on structure (it is structured, but not chronologically.) When I mentioned people not wanting to answer, I meant other places than just here. I was speaking generally. There is, I believe, only 1 unanswered question in this forum. (The one about Abraham in the bible sex stories thread.)

Not receiving an answer to the forementioned question, I decided to find it for myself. This is when I discovered the lack of (chronological) structure in the Qu'ran itself. I understand the concept of a philosophical structure, how disparate elements are brought together to teach a specific idea rather than a history lesson. But this makes it difficult for people like me, who don't have the time to read the whole Qu'ran, cross-reference it, assemble stories of the various personages involved, etc...

This also explains why many muslims spend their youths memorizing the Qu'ran. Although I doubt the ability of many to completely accurately construct a timeline from the whole. Various verses are sure to be missed or forgotten or misinterpreted. Also, it would be difficult in the extreme to put the verses together in the proper order. The meaning could be vastly different by switching verses around.

So, this leads me to why I asked about if muslims read the Bible to understand the Qu'ran. The Bible is constructed (mostly) chronological, so that you can tell what folllows what. Even with the Bible, one must devote time and effort to reconcile various books with each other, but far less than that required by the Qu'ran.

Let me give a brief description of my (short) experience reading the Qu'ran. It starts. Praises Allah for awhile. Threatens disbelievers for a bit. Then they start talking about Adam. Ok, Adam was the first man, the world hasn't been created yet, but it kinda makes sense for him to be here. The only problem is that you really don't get any sense of who Adam is. A viceroy that Allah put on the Earth according to the previous verse. But no mention of him being the first man. Allah teaches him the names of everything and tells the angels to bow before him. Tells him to live in the garden, to do anything but stay away from this tree. Then he has a wife. Then he's cast out of the garden. (I think)

Then, all of a sudden, it's off to chiding the Children of Israel. Who are they? What do they have to do with Adam? It finally mentions Abraham and Ishmael, but doesn't give a clear account.

Then, it's talking about christians, Jesus, who are they?

Can you see what I'm saying? Assume that I know nothing of any of this. A perfect blank slate. What am I to make of this? Who are all these people? When did they live? Which came first? Which came later?

It seems that it is expected that you already know these things before you read the Qu'ran. All these references to people that you already know all about and don't need to be told who they are. That's another reason I asked about the bible.

So, all that aside, I guess my questions are now this:

a.) In the link you gave above, it mentioned the Surah's being subdivided into 7 groups, each with it's own meaning. What are these?

b.) Also in the link was a mention made of chronological adaptations of the Qu'ran. Where might I find these. Not paraphrased, but using the actual verses, just reassembled into a chronological order?


Ug, I think I said it better the first time, but I don't think I am missing anything important from the first version.

 

[James R]

As I understand it, the Quran is arranged so that the longest chapters appear first, followed by the shorter chapters. That is the only real organisational principle.

 

[Preacher_X]

What has structure got ot do with anything. Islam is a WHOLE way of life and not a religion. the Bible just presnets to people a religion.

also the Bible was obviously corrupted with errors and says stupid things like the world is flat and the world was created in seven LITERAL days.

also the Quran has been COMPLETELY memorised by millions of people while i dont think anyone has memeoirsed the entire Bible.

also the challange of the Quran has never been meant but as for the Bible, 50 cent says it best "my songs belong in the Bible with King david".

and 50's lyrics are probely just as good aswell you know.

 

[invert_nexus]

Ok, preacher, how about I ask you to present to me what the Qu'ran says about Abraham. Tell me his story according to the Qu'ran. No fair cheating and looking on the net or anything. Using only the Qu'ran, relay to me all the pertinent information about Abraham.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Ok, preacher, how about I ask you to present to me what the Qu'ran says about Abraham. Tell me his story according to the Qu'ran. No fair cheating and looking on the net or anything. Using only the Qu'ran, relay to me all the pertinent information about Abraham.

*************
M*W: The Qur'an says that Abraham was the Father of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. In that, Ishmael was the chosen one.

 

[invert_nexus]

That's not the life story. I mean Abraham was born, lived, died, etc... I want his story not a one line paraphrase. Also, I want it in verse form. The verses as written in the Qu'ran. Merely rearranged so that one can piece together the story of his life.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

That's not the life story. I mean Abraham was born, lived, died, etc... I want his story not a one line paraphrase. Also, I want it in verse form. The verses as written in the Qu'ran. Merely rearranged so that one can piece together the story of his life.

*************
M*W: Okay, so be it. Abraham, oh Abraham, wherefore art thou?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

A Hidden Message?

The holy Qur'an comprises 114 suras (chapters) each of which is made up of varying numbers of ayats (verses).

The illustration on the left shows a scatter graph of the number of verses in a sura against the number of the sura. The result resembles the word "Allah" in Arabic (right).
The Qur'anic revelation was made by Archangel Gabriel to Prophet Mohamrned (PBUH). It took place over a period of more than 20 years beginning with the first verses of sura 96. After a three year hiatus, the revelation continued up to the death of the Prophet (PBUH) in 632 C.E.

Whenever a fragment of the Qur'an was revealed,the Prophet (PBUH) called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been revealed. Extremely diverse materials were used for this initial record e.g. leather, parchment,wooden tablets, bones and soft stones for inscription. At the same time the Prophet (PBUH) recommended his followers to memorise the Qur'an, thereby doubly preserving the text.

Following the death of the Prophet (PBUH)in 632 C.E., Abu Bakr (RA), the first Caliph of Islam, asked the Prophet's (PBUH) main scribe, Zaid Ibn Thabit, to make a copy which he duly did. On Omar's (RA) initiative (the then future second Caliph), Zaid consulted all the information he could assemble in Medina and produced a very faithful copy of the book.

Omar, Abu Bakr's successor in 634 C.E. subsequently made a single volume (mushaf) which he preserved and passed on to Hafsa, his only daughter and the Prophet's (PBUH) widow. The third Caliph, Uthman (RA), entrusted a commission of experts with the preparation of the great recension that bears his name. The commission evaluated the authenticity of the document produced under Abu Bakr (RA) and which had remained with Hafsa until then. They also consulted Muslims who had memorised the Qur'an. The critical analysis of the authenticity of the text was carried out very stringently. The agreement of the witnesses was deemed necessary before the slightest verse containing debatable material was retained. The result was a text containing an order of sura that reflects the order followed by the Prophet (PBUH) during his recitals in Ramadan. The 114 suras were arranged in approximately decreasing order of length although there were exceptions.

The sequence of the suras in the Qur'an has proved to be of much interest in modern times. A young Turkish Engineering student at Istanbul Technical University was fascinated by this topic, so much so, that he plotted by hand, a graph of he number of verses in a sura against the number of the sura. The result startled him as it resembled the word "Allah" (God) in Arabic. His findings appeared in a Turkish national newspaper in February 1986.

At the beginning of this article is a computer generated scatter graph of "length of sura" (ie number of verses that it contains) against "number of the sura". The graph is provided both in its raw form and with added shading. There is a distinct similarity between the graph and the Arabic word "Allah". Is this a coincidence or something much more?

http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_scatter.htm

 

[invert_nexus]

Hmm, interesting. Can you answer my questions from above? a and b. The Abraham thing was merely an example of how difficult it would be to piece together a history from a scattered source.

 

[path]

Here is one point of view on the structure of the quran.

[The Qur'an] is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions

Quran the work of multiple authors?

 

[path]

also the Bible was obviously corrupted with errors and says stupid things like the world is flat .

Preacher you should find this quite interesting

"The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment." Yousef M. Ibrahim, "Muslim Edicts take on New Force", The New York Times, February 12, 1995, p. A-14.

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia declared apostate via a fatwa anyone who claimed the earth to be round after studying what the Quran had to say on the subject. He later recanted this position after worldly Muslims, demonstrating no little embarrassment, prevailed upon him to do so

Here is the fatwa as it was

Title of the Book: "Evidence that the Earth is Standing Still."
Author: Sheikh Abdul Aziz Ben Baz.
Editor: Islamic University of Medina.
Year: 1395 AH
City: Medina, Saudi Arabia.
Page: 23.

"If the earth is rotating as they claim, the countries, the mountains, the trees, the rivers, and the oceans will have no bottom and the people will
see the eastern countries move to the west and the western countries move to
the east."

"In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Merciful, The Bestower of Mercy."

"The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist
who deserves to be punished." [Muslim religious edict, 1993, Sheik
Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]"

 

[path]

Another source pointing to the likelyhood that the quran was assembled from different sources

The Changing quran

An excerpt

According to Muslim belief, the Koran is the eternal, unaltered Word of God, which has remained the same for 14 centuries. But Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.

and another relating to structure

Until now, there were three ancient copies of the Koran. One copy in the Library of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, and another in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey, date from the eighth century. A copy preserved in the British Library in London, known as the Ma'il manuscript, dates from the late seventh century. But the Sa'na manuscripts are even older. Moreover, the Sa'na manuscripts are written in a script that originates from the Hijaz - the region of Arabia where the prophet Mohammed lived, which makes them not only the oldest to have survived, but one of the earliest copies of the Koran ever.

Puin noticed minor textual variations, unconventional ordering of the chapters (surahs), as well as rare styles of orthography. Then he noticed that the sheets were palimpsests - manuscripts with versions written even earlier that had been washed off or erased. These findings led Dr Puin to assert that the Koran had undergone a textual evolution. In other words, the copy of the Koran that we have is not the one believed to have been revealed to the prophet

A bit more then I'll stop, it is a fascinating read.

As years went by, the correct reading of the Koran became less clear, he says. People made changes to make sense of the text. Puin gives as example Hajjaj bin Yusuf, governor of Iraq from 694-714 AD, who "was proud of inserting more than 1,000 alifs [first letter of the Arabic alphabet] in the Koranic text".

Professor Allen Jones, lecturer in Koranic Studies at Oxford University, agrees. "Hajjaj is also responsible for putting the diacritical marks in the Koran. His changes are a defining moment in the history of the Koran". After Hajjaj's changes in around the 700s, "the Koranic text became pretty stable", he says.

Puin accepts this up to a point, but says that certain words and pronunciations were standardised in the ninth century. He says the Uthmanic text was the skeleton upon which "many layers of interpretation were added" - causing the text to change.

 

[path]

Another German scholar researching the quran has a different understanding of the texts

The Virgins and the Grapes: the Christian Origins of the Koran
A German scholar of ancient languages takes a new look at the sacred book of Islam. He maintains that it was created by Syro-Aramaic speaking Christians, in order to evangelize the Arabs. And he translates it in a new way

Here is an article and interview

Article

 

[invert_nexus]

Now that is really interesting. Thanks Path.

 

[path]

Check this out from the interview

Beginning in the third century, the Syrian Christians did not limit themselves to bringing their evangelical mission to nearby countries, like Armenia or Persia. They pressed on toward distant territories, all the way to the borders of China and the western coast of India, in addition to the entire Arabian peninsula all the way to Yemen and Ethiopia. It is thus rather probable that, in order to proclaim the Christian message to the Arabic peoples, they would have used (among others) the language of the Bedouins, or Arabic. In order to spread the Gospel, they necessarily made use of a mishmash of languages. But in an era in which Arabic was just an assembly of dialects and had no written form, the missionaries had no choice but to resort to their own literary language and their own culture; that is, to Syro-Aramaic. The result was that the language of the Koran was born as a written Arabic language, but one of Arab-Aramaic derivation.”

Q. – Do you mean that anyone who does not keep the Syro-Aramaic language in mind cannot translate and interpret the Koran correctly?

A. – “Yes. Anyone who wants to make a thorough study of the Koran must have a background in the Syro-Aramaic grammar and literature of that period, the 7th century. Only thus can he identify the original meaning of Arabic expressions whose semantic interpretation can be established definitively only by retranslating them into Syro-Aramaic.”

According to Luxenberg the quran may actually be the result of Syrian/aramaic christians trying to invent a way to preach the bible to arabs. Oh if this turns out to be the case it would be one of the greatest ironies of human history THE WHOLE DAMN 1400 years CONFLICT MAY JUST BE A MONUMENTAL MISUNDERSTANDING

In its origin, the Koran is a Syro-Aramaic liturgical book, with hymns and extracts from Scriptures which might have been used in sacred Christian services. In the second place, one may see in the Koran the beginning of a preaching directed toward transmitting the belief in the Sacred Scriptures to the pagans of Mecca, in the Arabic language. Its socio-political sections, which are not especially related to the original Koran, were added later in Medina. At its beginning, the Koran was not conceived as the foundation of a new religion. It presupposes belief in the Scriptures, and thus functioned merely as an inroad into Arabic society.”

Q. – To many Muslim believers, for whom the Koran is the holy book and the only truth, your conclusions could seem blasphemous. What reactions have you noticed up until now?

A. – “In Pakistan, the sale of the edition of ‘Newsweek’ that contained an article on my book was banned. Otherwise, I must say that, in my encounters with Muslims, I have not noticed any hostile attitudes. On the contrary, they have appreciated the commitment of a non-Muslim to studies aimed at an objective comprehension of their sacred text. My work could be judged as blasphemous only by those who decide to cling to errors in the interpretation of the word of God. But in the Koran it is written, ‘No one can bring to the right way those whom God induces to error.’”