Stop illegal immigration into the US!

[justiceusa]

Rip off crews and drop houses

A good read on what is happening in the southwest.



http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special03/articles/0817immigrant-bajadores17.html

We are simply not prepared for this evolving violence. Illegals do not simply walk across the border and catch a bus. They are; being held for ransom, dieing in the desert, and if they do make it they are frequently abused and cheated by their employers.

And I must always ask this one question which applies to our own economy. How many illegals are too many when no one is counting?

 

[zanket]

The situation now, with kids dying in the desert and all the other problems, is fairly ridiculous I think. A better solution would be to build a fence and then hold lotteries to get the cheap labor we want. We could issue work visas. Existing law would protect workers except a lower minimum wage would apply.

 

[::blurbfly::]

it's really heartwarming to see human beings treat each other with such compassion - while you are at it, why don't build a few conc. camps for all the poor, hungry, unemployed people following resources and empty stomachs, much like all of your own ancestors did at one point or another in the inevitable and quite natural process of continuous migration.

 

[Repo Man]

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat:

Moderator, do something about this.

Sorry I missed this in the chatter. Very well. Since the topic has been brought back to life ....


Follow-up

First off, to respond to the other part of your question, Jerrek, I'm aware that there has been confusion in the past about where you are. I let the question you find so offensive stand because, while I remember that you've called yourself an American in the past, I don't expect everyone to. Besides, you seem to have answered the question well enough.

In general, this topic is rather quite wasteful. The best post content we have is an article from Arizona and a cartoon. Even my two cents during the original run of this topic lacks any real enthusiasm.

This topic lacks any argumentative foundation aside from personal sentiment toward foreigners. I think the number of small profanities I've moderated is indicative of what happens when there is nothing else to argue than how we feel.

I, for one, would like to see the "problems" established, so that we might look at how "stopping illegal immigration to the US" will solve them. I'm not going to require it, but rather propose that in such a case, there would be more to argue than the personal.

-bd

 

[Flores]

[/font]

Fair enough!
The main problem that is preventing any US president (republican or Democratic) from deporting illegal immigrants is the international competition for wages that seems to be jeoprdizing many so called "American industries" and placing them in the control of other nations. This is not a question of illegal bodies within the US, it's a question of illigal trade practices. It doesn't matter whether the bodies are here or not, US is actively employing illegally the whole world to support American industries and maximise profit margins.

Let me give you all an example. Last week, I installed an engineering software on my home computer. Part of the price I paid included a free 24 hour phone help line assistance. Now, As you all know, I'm a woman that doesn't read instructions, so at the first sign of problems, I called the help line. When I called the help line, I was given another number to call....and guess what, it was an international number. After two hours of holding, I finally spoke to this woman who happened to be in the vietnam...she helped me with my question and I chatted briefly with her in regards to her employment with the US firm. She told me that she is an employer of that US firm, but that her salary are more representative of local salaries. I didn't recieve my phone bill as of yet, and I'm not looking forward to it.

My story is a classic case of American twisted and screwed up corporate behavior and explains the illigal immigrant dilemma. While the politicians put a blind eye on the issue ON PURPOSE, they know full well that the AMERICANS are paying out of their pockets, lives, education, ect....to support this crookedness and fatten their pockets. My beloved software company ends up hiring cheap labors and saves on all the employment benefit cost, just so that me the CONSUMER end up indirectly stiffed the bills in the form of long distance phone bills.

It makes me sick.

 

[zanket]

The flip side of that is, the software could have been higher priced had they had local tech support. Nowadays if you think you might need support you have to ask where the tech support is located and is it a local phone number, before you make a purchase or compare prices.

I don’t have a problem with Vietnamese tech support. If they can do it with higher value to the employer, it’s only fair they get the job. I’m not gonna keep someone else down just so I can enjoy a better life. Eventually this world will be borderless. It’s not a question of will it be done, only how it will be done.

 

[Flores]

The flip side of that is, the software could have been higher priced had they had local tech support.

That's not a problem. I'd rather live the reality of my economic situation minute by minute rather than receive the news two years later that I'm layed off due to high defecits.

Nowadays if you think you might need support you have to ask where the tech support is located and is it a local phone number, before you make a purchase or compare prices.

Actually, the consumer here in the US is tired of asking questions? We are being screwed left and right by loop holes and crookedness. Corporations are no longer interested in providing good quality customer service and repeat business, they would rather make big hit and run profit and leave the consumer scratching their head and feeling stupid.

I don’t have a problem with Vietnamese tech support. If they can do it with higher value to the employer, it’s only fair they get the job.

How can it be fair to get the American job? What do I pay taxes for? So other countries can compete for my jobs without paying any taxes. The US is sending a clear message...Do you know what is the message?

"American education is worth diddly squat....because third world countries that can't feed themselves are able to highly educate their citizens so they can steal American jobs"

I’m not gonna keep someone else down just so I can enjoy a better life. Eventually this world will be borderless. It’s not a question of will it be done, only how it will be done.

You are not keeping anyone down by showing loyality to the country that feeds you.....

The world is not borderless as you speak....This world will never be borderless.....The world is a mean selfish giant that only knows how to look up and pee down.

 

[Mrhero54]

higher prices mean higher wages. It may cost more to use american labor but if any country in the world can afford to pay more it's U.S. Exporting labor is nothing more than an attempt to increase bottom lines. Spend more, pay more its a natural economic cycle.

 

[zanket]

That's not a problem. I'd rather live the reality of my economic situation minute by minute rather than receive the news two years later that I'm layed off due to high defecits.

The reality is that the jobs are moving away. Moreover, that’s what the people want. This is still a democracy; if the majority didn’t want the jobs to go they wouldn’t. When the Vietnamese-supported software at $50 sits next to the American-supported $75 package, the vast majority will give the nod to the cheaper product. Better disclosure wouldn’t change their minds much. The corporations and the government are simply responding to the desires of the populace. The consumer/voter is still king.

"American education is worth diddly squat....because third world countries that can't feed themselves are able to highly educate their citizens so they can steal American jobs"

That’s true. Students/workers should focus on what Americans can do better, or what jobs cannot easily be exported. They should adapt to be competitive. I’m not immune either; my job’s going to India next month.

You are not keeping anyone down by showing loyality to the country that feeds you.....

That’s a good one. There is no loyalty from any quarter, hence none deserved in return. I’m surprised you are younger than me. How could you not know that?

The world is not borderless as you speak....This world will never be borderless.....

Borderless-ness is inevitable. The main reasons borders exist is to screen out foreigners looking to work illegally, and as a checkpoint to filter out contraband and criminals. If people can find decent work at home they will not be such a risk to other countries and borders will morph into checkpoints for the 2nd reason only, as has been happening throughout history. Consider that a non-American can get an instant green card--no 5-year wait--by showing assets of $1+ million. Also Canadians have easy access to the US compared to Mexicans. It’s all about standard-of-living differences that you help to balance out when you buy Vietnamese-supported software.

 

[zanket]

higher prices mean higher wages. It may cost more to use american labor but if any country in the world can afford to pay more it's U.S. Exporting labor is nothing more than an attempt to increase bottom lines. Spend more, pay more its a natural economic cycle.

There is ample evidence that “buy American” or “buy Wisconsin” is worse on average than is “buy from anywhere.” If people had bought only American cars in the last thirty years, surely I’d be driving a junk GM rather than my high-quality and reasonably-priced Toyota. Toyota would have died on the vine whereas GM would now be charging fifty grand for a deathmobile.

 

[Rappaccini]

Dudes.


All the US has to do to solve this problem is enforce the minimum wage.



If big business is forced to pay the same wages to both citizens and illegal immigrants, the incentive for hiring the immigrants will vanish.



The jobs will go to presumbably better educated citizens.

Once the jobs are no longer available to them, the aliens will leave.

 

[zanket]

Sure, but that's not what the people want. People like to complain about illegals, but they still want them here.

 

[Flores]

The reality is that the jobs are moving away. Moreover, that’s what the people want. This is still a democracy; if the majority didn’t want the jobs to go they wouldn’t. When the Vietnamese-supported software at $50 sits next to the American-supported $75 package, the vast majority will give the nod to the cheaper product. Better disclosure wouldn’t change their minds much. The corporations and the government are simply responding to the desires of the populace. The consumer/voter is still king.

.

I have to disagree with this point. Jobs are not moving away, US is outsourcing. And while outsourcing seem to be the cheaper way of doing things, it's a short sighted sucky approach to business and nation building.

Imagine that you own an architechture firm. Drafters in the US cost $15.00-$20.00 an hour. Now, you think that's too much, so you make a trip to Elsalvador and talk to some small business or kids to help you with drafting for $1.00 an hour instead. Of course you have to illegally transport the softwares overseas into lands that don't respect copy rights. You also have to train Juan and Carlos on computers and drafting. You might even contact the local college in introducing a drafting course so that your cheap labor supply is continous. You also have to set up expensive mode of communication with Elsalvador, phone bills, FTP sites, ect.....so you can send the information back and forth......Now tell me what will this mess result in:

1- People here in the US will stop becoming Autocad technicians, our colleges will stop teaching the courses, while Salvadorians are becoming experts in CAD, their universities are working well, and on top of all that, Salvadorian CAD technicians are getting to know architechture design without going to school. The next step is that the salvadorian dudes will tell the owner, give us one more dollar, and we'll use the standard details, no need for your engineer to put the drawing together. The owner will like the idea since his engineer cost him $40.00 an hour plus benefits.

2- Quality is on the decline. Instead of relying on experts to build fields, we are relying on copy cats to manipulate existing designs.

3- We are in the business of building other nations, despite what the republican party keep saying...American tax money is building other nations...and America is socially on the decline...go figure.

 

[zanket]

Outsourcing jobs = jobs moving away. I agree with the drafter scenario except that quality need not suffer. People are the same intelligence on average the world over. They just need the opportunity to demonstrate that. Given a chance, the Salvadorians will become the experts. Like how the Japanese became experts on making cars.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I think that one of the issues here is the fact that apparently companies can hire 'illegal' people and pay them less. That would be illegal in some other countries. Not the hiring of illegal people, that is legal, but to pay them less.

Now the solution is in view. You change your silly laws and make it illegal to pay an 'illegal' less than legal wages. Don't put the blame on the illegals. They are just people looking for a way to make a living. With the new system we will see easily if 'legal' americans will take over the job of 'illegal' americans (since it they can now compete on the salary level). Moreover, illegal americans will improve their living conditions since they will have the same rights and salary as their legal counterparts. If there are no legal jobs the living conditions of illegals will become intolerable quite soon if they are too plentiful. Word will spread and illegal immigration will grind to a halt. They might try Europe instead.

Of course there will still be people who will want to pay illegal people illegal wages. Well, those people we will send to jerrek, which can execute them. The prisons are after all already filled with criminalized drug users and other victims of right wing thinking.

In short. Don't blame the people. People just want to have a live. Do something about the problem on a sensible level. Building a fence or putting the entired US armed forces at the border is just an example of extreme case of not being able to see the forest because there are too many trees.

 

[Flores]

Outsourcing jobs = jobs moving away

I disagree whole heartedly. Jobs moving away means that foundations of an industry are being relocated and managed by other countries. That's not what is happening. America is the only solid market for this world, and American salaries is what fuels the market of this world. Just imagine America boycotting Japanease products...now do you think America will suffer as much as Japan will suffer? I seriously think that America will actually improve and Japan infrastructure which is based on the American market will crumble. Japan building cars is not a moving away, it's a highly dependant situation. The reason America imports from Japan is what I call outsourcing. Sometimes, outsourcing could be good, but it must be balanced and utilized with the sole intentions of furthering the US agenda. Outsourcing is quick dirty method of escaping a society's constraint. The reason that Americans demand such high salaries is because living in America is very expensive compared to other countries...Why is it expensive? Because our social infrastructure is still half decent...Our roadways are best in the world...our water and sewer networks are best in the world, our infrastructure is still strong, but our infrastructure is a slave to our taxes and America employment. If we outsourced all work, then we have became nasty occupiers that merely collect other countrie's wealth. If we didn't outsource at all, then we have placed ourselves in a bubble and could risk loosing control on other civilization...something we are too afraid to face with our oil and labor dependance. Our outsourcing is a method of controlling the market, but the catch is, we become controlled as well.

I don't believe that the answer lies in achieving a balance. Americans didn't build America by dreading loosing their powers to other countries. Americans took risk and used to be nothing. They worked independantly and their resources were suffient to build them an empire...Lately though, they have changed course...Such a sad direction.

 

[zanket]

You imply that outsourcing is a way for the US to control markets. I think it’s just a way to maximize profits. I think there’s no agenda other than that. If profits are maximized by exporting jobs or even entire industries then that’s likely what’s going to happen. This has happened often before--for instance the US used to have a strong clothing design industry. Now that’s all but extinct here (the profit from the overseas work still hits the US balance sheets though).

Laid-off workers have no choice but to adapt in an attempt to maximize their own profits. A system in which everyone maximizes their own gains is the most efficient for everyone on average. Any attempt to slow that process is “placing ourselves in a bubble” as you put it; it creates short-term gains at the expense of the long term. It might be good for us at the expense of the children.

Japan’s dependence on the US is a function of relative strength. The US had the best economy for a long time and that created dependent economies elsewhere. This is temporary; as the lesser economies import entire industries the differences in economic strength will balance out. This is bound to happen because people are just as smart and ambitious on average in every country. Soon afterwards the world will become borderless.

The only problem I have with outsourcing is when it’s to a dictatorship or country that doesn’t meet human rights or environmental standards. China, for example, is well-known for exploiting prisoners for labor, which is effectively slavery (they can get 20 years for minor infractions there, no surprise). Americans shouldn’t abide that, but they do.

 

[Persol]

Companies will use the cheapest workers, regardless of it's in the US or in Mexico. At least if it is in the US we still retain the tax money, and control.

 

[Flores]

As person have nicely put it...Illigal immigrants are not the problem, actually they help our economy much more than we think..Outsourcing our market and excessive importing is the real problem, and unfortunately no fence will take care of that..