Stolen From the Womb: Kentucky woman accused of murder, theft of fetus

[birch]

but does he sound like a normal, rational person to you?

so you are not even technically defining it, you are just going by what people are conditioned to act or think in society.

your example is of a person who acted out extremely but it doesn't show he is more insane than anyone else in the population. it just may mean he was an asshole or that he really believed he had to do something radical to get them to pay attention. whether he was correct or not, is not necessarily insanity.

people have lack of good judgement as well as act in stupid ways all the time in various ways, you just don't notice it as much as something like this.

 

[birch]

But this? In the first place, you have to be just flat-out fucking crazy to steal the fetus from the womb. Secondly, as pertains the power of nature: No. All bets are off. I cannot stand by anything even remotely superstitious to explain this.

To the other, I suppose the question is fascinating how such an alleged psyche comes to the condition it does. Is it structural? Was something like this bound to happen? If so, why this shape? Is this chronic mental illness? Why this focus, then? A slow-burning psychotic break? Again, how did it come to look as it does?

What happened? What is this phenomenon?

i think you are overthinking this one a lot. you don't have to be crazy to do this, just very selfish. she wanted the child and she took it any way she could. as for consequences, maybe she thought she could get away with it.

you are equating people abiding by laws to mean they must be 'sane' when that is rather superficial. if it weren't for laws, there would be a lot more what you would consider 'insane' occuring.

 

[Bells]

OK, I'll give it a shot. It's because we (I) think that people who do such things are not fully in control of their rational/emotional state of mind - because if they were, they would have not done things that were obviously so stupid and in many cases would point directly to them as the one who did the crime.

To counter that of course, people do worse and are never classified as being mentally unbalanced or even insane.

From my personal standpoint, it is as if we use 'they're insane' line because it distances us from them. As in we are normal and they are not normal.

Question, would you consider someone like the Unibomber to be of fully sound mind?

Yes I do.

He was rational as he was careful about his targets.

There is no reason to consider him as not being rational and of sound mind in my opinion.

He was just an arsehole in my opinion.

Ted wazzishisname was not considered insane from a LEGAL standpoint but sending out random bombs does not, in my mind, qualify him as a fully-rational individual.

I think he was fully rational.

He was just a bad person. Being bad or an arsehole does not always indicate insanity or mental illness or irrationality. Not everyone is good or caring. Nor is everyone the type to not kill a woman because she wants to be a mother. In my opinion, does not mean you have to be mentally unbalanced or insane to do so.

Once again, he didn't qualify for the LEGAL insanity defense (and I agree with that assessment) - but does he sound like a normal, rational person to you?

I consider myself a normal and rational person, but I would not bomb those I hated. Does not mean he is not normal or rational.

Would you consider PETA supporters and activists to be irrational and insane? What about activists who go out in boats and try to stop whalers? Any member of Greenpeace who has actively protested against something or other?

He felt that the best way to get attention and set attention to his cause was to instill fear. Does not make him irrational or insane.

Tell me, do you consider Bin Ladin to be insane?

Or is he just an arsehole?

 

[Read-Only]

To counter that of course, people do worse and are never classified as being mentally unbalanced or even insane.

From my personal standpoint, it is as if we use 'they're insane' line because it distances us from them. As in we are normal and they are not normal.


Yes I do.

He was rational as he was careful about his targets.

There is no reason to consider him as not being rational and of sound mind in my opinion.

He was just an arsehole in my opinion.


I think he was fully rational.

He was just a bad person. Being bad or an arsehole does not always indicate insanity or mental illness or irrationality. Not everyone is good or caring. Nor is everyone the type to not kill a woman because she wants to be a mother. In my opinion, does not mean you have to be mentally unbalanced or insane to do so.


I consider myself a normal and rational person, but I would not bomb those I hated. Does not mean he is not normal or rational.

Would you consider PETA supporters and activists to be irrational and insane? What about activists who go out in boats and try to stop whalers? Any member of Greenpeace who has actively protested against something or other?

He felt that the best way to get attention and set attention to his cause was to instill fear. Does not make him irrational or insane.

Tell me, do you consider Bin Ladin to be insane?

Or is he just an arsehole?

Sorry to have to drop out on you, Bells - this is interesting! But I have to leave home immediately and will be gone for at least two days. Will pick back up on this when I return.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't think she was/is insane. She planned the murder, took the baby to the hospital and laid a groundwork by telling everyone she was pregnant.

I agree with Lori, she appears narcissistic. The female equivalent of those men who kill to achieve their goals.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

CharacteristicsThe prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviance in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[12][13][14] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright.[15] Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this hampers their tendency to make a likable first impression; psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything to anyone without concern for accuracy or truth. Shallow affect also describes the psychopath's tendency for genuine emotion to be short-lived, glib and egocentric, with an overall cold demeanor. Their behavior is impulsive and irresponsible, often failing to keep a job or defaulting on debts.[15] Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behavior.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

 

[clusteringflux]

I don't think she was/is insane. She planned the murder, took the baby to the hospital and laid a groundwork by telling everyone she was pregnant.

I agree with Lori, she appears narcissistic. The female equivalent of those men who kill to achieve their goals.

Hold on, Sam.
The article only says that she is a suspect. They are doing tests to prove the first two of you convictions but the third is an unknown.

How do we know she was never pregnant? She could have had her life in order to become a mother and miscarried. This sends some women who are exited about the idea of motherhood into deep deep emotional states of panic fear doubt and distress even embarrassment.

edit: I'm obviously no doctor but I would bet that circumstances of miscarriage can be varied and severe if the fetus is not expelled quickly, perhaps even releasing poisonous chemicals into the system. This is perhaps a situation when brain chemistry can become out of balance also.

We can only speculate but, perhaps she snapped, watching this subject of hers mismanage her life..left to wonder "Why should she deserve a baby? And I don't."
As a worker for help services she'd could have seen a thousand girls like this who's children would have been "better off" if "the mother disappeared" and the y had " a better care taker".

Anyway the details in the OP don't damn this woman quite yet, but even assuming she did the act the jury could very well hear about some difficult circumstances and how this came to be. And with info provided temporary insanity can't be ruled out just yet.

 

[birch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

anyone honestly assessing that info can tell that many people exhibit those traits to one degree or another.

as for those we label with disorders, it is probably just a matter of degree or when they decide to act out in the extreme and get caught.

 

[birch]

We can only speculate but, perhaps she snapped, watching this subject of hers mismanage her life..left to wonder "Why should she deserve a baby? And I don't."
As a worker for help services she'd could have seen a thousand girls like this who's children would have been "better off" if "the mother disappeared" and the y had " a better care taker".

Anyway the details in the OP don't damn this woman quite yet, but even assuming she did the act the jury could very well hear about some difficult circumstances and how this came to be. And with info provided temporary insanity can't be ruled out just yet.

posts like this show there are a lot of so-called 'crazy' people in the world besides those who commit these acts. hmm..

the baby wasn't hers, period. it wasn't her right to judge another or to take it upon herself to take another's child. it simply is not hers, do you comprehend that? i can tell that you sympathize with people of this type of thinking which is not only bizarrely impersonal and artificial about relations (which is not rare) but it is very unethical. there is a difference between your child and another's child, the fact that one is yours and the other isn't. also, your conjecture is atrocious. if she wanted to have a child so much to raise, then she should have sought the appropriate adoption services. what this does seem like is there was jealousy involved.

she schemed to take this child and she murdered. she is guilty, end of story.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

anyone honestly assessing that info can tell that many people exhibit those traits to one degree or another.

as for those we label with disorders, it is probably just a matter of degree or when they decide to act out in the extreme and get caught.

I agree with that to some extent yes.

The degree is important. Tendencies to psychopathy would be at least some of what many religious people would refer to as "evil" if I'm not mistaking. You can be more or less "evil" but only the very extreme cases would do something like this, I'm sure.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

anyone honestly assessing that info can tell that many people exhibit those traits to one degree or another.

as for those we label with disorders, it is probably just a matter of degree or when they decide to act out in the extreme and get caught.

And yes. ALL of us have some tendencies. There are the two poles of psychosis and psychopathy. The psychotic is your classic crazy guy where the psychopath is the "bad" guy. All of us are somewhere in between and the few unhealthy individuals are at one of the two extremes.

 

[birch]

All of us are somewhere in between and the few unhealthy individuals are at one of the two extremes.

this is where we must agree to disagree. i don't think it's just a few, i think that's what we tell ourselves to feel safe.

if that were really the case, the world wouldn't be filled with the vast amounts of suffering and strife it does now or was.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

You might be right birch.

 

[birch]

ah geezus. of course it's right. it's not about me being right anyways.

people tend to think sociopathy or psychopathy or narcissism is only within the domain of what is considered illegal. there are plenty of those people doing their shit and raping people in some way or being unfair and it's all considered 'legal'. the whole world is based on some form of assholery against someone else.

people need to stop lying to themselves..

 

[YoYoPapaya]

ah geezus. of course it's right. it's not about me being right anyways.

people tend to think sociopathy or psychopathy or narcissism is only within the domain of what is considered illegal. there are plenty of those people doing their shit and raping people in some way or being unfair and it's all considered 'legal'. the whole world is based on some form of assholery against someone else.

people need to stop lying to themselves..

Oh yea I know that. I just don't know how big a percentage that is. I think it might not be as big as you think. It doesn't take a lot of assholes to shit allover the floor, as the old saying goes.

 

[birch]

Oh yea I know that. I just don't know how big a percentage that is. I think it might not be as big as you think. It doesn't take a lot of assholes to shit allover the floor, as the old saying goes.

there is actually a lot. assholes only have power when enough other assholes give them power so there is a lot.

 

[clusteringflux]

posts like this show there are a lot of so-called 'crazy' people in the world besides those who commit these acts. hmm..

the baby wasn't hers, period. it wasn't her right to judge another or to take it upon herself to take another's child. it simply is not hers, do you comprehend that? i can tell that you sympathize with people of this type of thinking which is not only bizarrely impersonal and artificial about relations (which is not rare) but it is very unethical. there is a difference between your child and another's child, the fact that one is yours and the other isn't. also, your conjecture is atrocious. if she wanted to have a child so much to raise, then she should have sought the appropriate adoption services. what this does seem like is there was jealousy involved.

she schemed to take this child and she murdered. she is guilty, end of story.

Yes they're called defense lawyers and this was my best attempt to play devil's advocate for a moment.
Mainly for conversation sake because while I really think this woman is scum and deserves to die, I had to fight the urge to jump on the bandwagon of this thread when I realized how little info the OP offered in the way of physical evidence.

At any rate, I do believe that Tiassa is correct when he says that there are physiological processes in a woman's body that can cause them to totally irrational and unhinged for brief periods. This too is of course is based on anecdotal evidence having been married for 16 years and being raised by my mother and two sisters. My default reaction tends to be "all women are crazy" at least sometimes. This is of course false, so when I read something like this and don't feel the shock that one should I look for other answers.
And while it's easy to say "it was not her child to take" a brief look through nature will show female animals doing amazingly desperate things on merely the potential of threat to their young (or perceived young) including killing and sometimes even consuming the object of threat or even the young that they are protecting.

Is this a reason to let this woman off the hook? Absolutely not. But I think this type of thing appears to be on the rise and at some point we have to find out why. Why does a mother suddenly decide to drown all of her children or throw a live fetus in a trash can? It seems "normal" women are going off the deep end every time you turn around. Does it make me wonder if their are other things at play than good ole selfish narcissism? You bet it does.

 

[Bells]

At any rate, I do believe that Tiassa is correct when he says that there are physiological processes in a woman's body that can cause them to totally irrational and unhinged for brief periods.

As can happen with any person, regardless of sex.

But this does not apply in this case. This woman planned it and prepared for it for a long time. She told people she was expecting a baby. She befriended and gained the trust of the mother, after she took the child, she then took to the hospital. This is something she had planned over an extended period of time.

This is of course false, so when I read something like this and don't feel the shock that one should I look for other answers.

Which is why I was asking why people simply assume she is crazy.

What leads women like her to do something like this? What thought processes and how did she come to the decision to do it?

Most importantly, why are we uncomfortable with the thought that she may not be crazy? She could very well be crazy. But she could very well not be crazy. I tend to lean towards not crazy. There is too much detail and too much planning. For example:

Kathy Michelle Coy, the Kentucky woman accused of murdering 21-year-old Jamie Stice and kidnapping her unborn son, may have spent more than six months plotting the alleged crime, according to a friend of the victim.

------------------------------------------------

"She made Jamie believe she was pregnant when she wasn't," Nicole said. "She had stolen someone else's ultrasound pictures back in October, and if you count that up, that's seven months. I really believe she had this planned out from the beginning and needed the right person to do this stuff to."

(Source)
​

And this woman was apparently married and her husband also thought she was pregnant. It really is astounding to be honest at how far she went to make people believe she was not only pregnant, but had had the child.

 

[birch]

Yes they're called defense lawyers and this was my best attempt to play devil's advocate for a moment.
Mainly for conversation sake because while I really think this woman is scum and deserves to die, I had to fight the urge to jump on the bandwagon of this thread when I realized how little info the OP offered in the way of physical evidence.

At any rate, I do believe that Tiassa is correct when he says that there are physiological processes in a woman's body that can cause them to totally irrational and unhinged for brief periods. This too is of course is based on anecdotal evidence having been married for 16 years and being raised by my mother and two sisters. My default reaction tends to be "all women are crazy" at least sometimes. This is of course false, so when I read something like this and don't feel the shock that one should I look for other answers.
And while it's easy to say "it was not her child to take" a brief look through nature will show female animals doing amazingly desperate things on merely the potential of threat to their young (or perceived young) including killing and sometimes even consuming the object of threat or even the young that they are protecting.

Is this a reason to let this woman off the hook? Absolutely not. But I think this type of thing appears to be on the rise and at some point we have to find out why. Why does a mother suddenly decide to drown all of her children or throw a live fetus in a trash can? It seems "normal" women are going off the deep end every time you turn around. Does it make me wonder if their are other things at play than good ole selfish narcissism? You bet it does.

my opinion is that you are trying to find excuses for this behavior and your post still reeks of further oddity and out of place conjecture just as the first one. it was not her child to protect! animals don't kill other animals to steal their young because they think it is theirs. sometimes they will adopt one for awhile if the parent has died and they are alone. that you state you think 'it's on the rise' indicates to me you aren't thinking realistically either (you probably are like those deluded who think everything was always better and more moral in the past) so i have to question the rest of your post and judgement.

 

[Tiassa]

Futility

It really is astounding to be honest at how far she went to make people believe she was not only pregnant, but had had the child.

And yet she made enough of a mistake to cause BGMC personnel to phone in their suspicions.

Don't get me wrong; if you gave me seven months to prepare, I couldn't pull off a credible postpartum mother job. But I don't know whether to simply shake my head and try not to chuckle over that since it's so grim, or just shrug and wonder at the bit about how she did the murder and extraction okay, but got caught by hospital personnel trying to pass off as the mother.

If a criminal is going to get busted that easily, could they at least do so before committing the actual crime?

I mean, Jamie Stice died for a woman who was stupid enough to think she could steal a baby from the womb, walk into Bowling Green Medical Center—at some point, reputation counts for something, and BGMC is a very good hospital—and try to pass the newborn as her own.

That's ... just ... futile.

(Sigh.)