Sterile animals
- Thread starter Enigma'07
- Start date
they do that?!
well if they do, maybe it's to control the population of the species? maybe? I know that's how some pest control methods work. They release a whole bunch of sterile female pests to the environment, and the males would mate them and not be able to cause any fertilization... very sneaky
well if they do, maybe it's to control the population of the species? maybe? I know that's how some pest control methods work. They release a whole bunch of sterile female pests to the environment, and the males would mate them and not be able to cause any fertilization... very sneaky
No, cause male/female tigers would mate, and male/female lions would mate, but then your left with these sterile creatures that can't even reproduce them self. Why would people even want to breed such thigs. I'm in over my head, I'm trying to understand other people...
They cross horses and donkeys because, although the result is sterile, it is stronger and more efficient (cheaper?) in use than a horse or a donkey. I'm not really sure of exact benefits, but yes, there is a practical reason for a mule.
I guess mules still have sex drives?…did you hear of the sexually aroused stallion that killed a guy this year –bit him to death (severed an artery or broke his neck). And mares in heat tend to be annoying to work with…
The captive Wolfin isn’t sterile (she’s given birth), and I don’t think it was a case of people breeding wolfins but rather keeping 'similar' animals in confinement together.
The Cama was actively breed to produce an animal with better wool than the camel and a better temperament to be used as a pack animal. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/49301.stm
The captive Wolfin isn’t sterile (she’s given birth), and I don’t think it was a case of people breeding wolfins but rather keeping 'similar' animals in confinement together.
The Cama was actively breed to produce an animal with better wool than the camel and a better temperament to be used as a pack animal. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/49301.stm
This is why, let me quote the site your provided:
Horse and donkeys cannot produce viable offspring because of a diffrence in the number of chromosomes (horse has 64, donkey has 62 and a mule has 63, odd numbers are sterile) but who cares as long as its a hard working animal and you can make more of them simple by hybriding more of them
Horse and donkeys cannot produce viable offspring because of a diffrence in the number of chromosomes (horse has 64, donkey has 62 and a mule has 63, odd numbers are sterile) but who cares as long as its a hard working animal and you can make more of them simple by hybriding more of them
I’ve heard it can, but with an incredibly low probability that the fertilised egg will have chromosomes that can pair.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2290491.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2290491.stm
That is just ill what some people do ... I am appalled.
Those animals, esp. cats and dogs, are interbred only to satisfy the imagination of a few people who obviously have too much time and money.
Those people never wondered what that animal would feel like. -- Look at the sad eyes of those animals!
Once more, I am appalled.
Those animals, esp. cats and dogs, are interbred only to satisfy the imagination of a few people who obviously have too much time and money.
Those people never wondered what that animal would feel like. -- Look at the sad eyes of those animals!
Once more, I am appalled.
Rosa - how would the animal know that it was sterile? Would you know if you were sterile? That's the only reason they have to be sad...
A cat or dog is made is sterile by chopping off it's nuts. This is gonna have side effects. A mule is sterile because it's gametes are incapable of fertilization. It still has a sex drive, it just isn't effective.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
This discussion is taking an odd twist. We routinely not only sterilize many of our domestic animals but actually DE-SEX them: take away their sex organs and their sex drives.
Sterilization is all it takes to achieve the humane goal of keeping them from overbreeding and giving us more individuals of their species than we can care for -- that's perfectly fine, we do it to ourselves. Sterile animals can go through their courtship rituals, form bonded pairs, and copulate their brains out.
But we actually remove their sex organs and their sexual drives. We don't want them going through those courtship rituals because the noise and bedlam is too raucous for our artificial environment. Un-neutered pets are a real handful. They mark territory, they fight, they find a way to get through the fence, they make strange loud noises. We breed dogs and have five intact ones. We live out in the country with no neighbors and a very effective fence. And they still drive us nuts when its breeding time.
Nobody performs vasectomies and tubal ligations on male and female dogs and cats. They perform castrations and hysterectomies so the females never come into estrus and the males couldn't respond if they did. (Actually the joke is on us. Male dogs of breeds with a high incidence of the alpha gene, like the Lhasa Apsos we raise, can get an erection and get a tie with a bitch in heat. For them the instinct isn't just sexual, it's a way of vying for leadership of the pack. You've got to be the canine Arnold Schwarzenneger to be the one who gets to lead a pack of Lhasa Apsos or pitbulls, so even the weeniest ones have more testosterone than I do.)
All we're doing by breeding hybrids who themselves can't reproduce is creating individuals who can mate but not have offspring. That's not as cruel as you all make it out to be. Not nearly as big an affront to nature as taking away the source of their sexual hormones and making a drastic change in their personality, which I'm sure is the state of the dogs and cats living in the homes of 95 percent of the people who are reading this posting.
Sure it's an act of domination. We want camelids who are bigger than llamas but don't bite like camels. We want equines who can haul heavier loads than horses but are more tractable than asses. Most hybridizing is done purely for looks or sheer experimentation.
Having once been in the parrot business I've seen what people have accomplished over several generations of careful cross-breeding. A macaw that is 3/4 Scarlet Macaw and 1/4 Blue and Gold Macaw is a beautiful orange color. (They're called Camelot Macaws.) There's a long waiting list for one of those since it takes macaws five years to reach sexual maturity. And they're not sterile. You breed one back to another Scarlet and you get a Lavender Macaw.
You don't know whether what you're breeding is going to be sterile until you've got it. Sterility is almost never one of the goals of hybridization. Don't you think people would be delighted if they could get more mules just by letting the mules they already have breed with one another? I assure you, psittaculturists are deliriously happy that those Camelot Macaws are fertile!
When people discuss altering the sexual abilities of domestic animals, it makes us very uncomfortable, often to the point of irrationality. I've seen poor, frustrated, angry male dogs end up on the euthanasia table, because some damn macho male human just couldn't bring himself to cut the dog's balls off. So the dog spends his whole life smelling the pheromones of every female in heat within five miles (because some other stupid humans refuse to have their females spayed for similar reasons) and it drives him crazy.
Guys, imagine you're locked up in prison. But your cell has a wall completely open to the world with nothing but bars to keep you in. This prison is right on the beach. Every day you watch the girls walk by in their bikinis. Just for fun they walk up to the bars and make googly eyes at you and say they wish you could come out and play. They're wearing the most exquisite perfume, it must cost $10,000 an ounce. And you're going to remain locked in that cell for twenty years.
That's how an un-neutered male dog feels every day of his life. Unless he's a commercial breeder and actually gets to "do it" with the girls he lives with.
Get your facts straight, get your stories straight, and try to look at the world through the eyes and hormones of these poor animals who have no choice but to let us direct their lives. Some of the things we consider cruel are actually less so than the alternatives.
Sterilization is all it takes to achieve the humane goal of keeping them from overbreeding and giving us more individuals of their species than we can care for -- that's perfectly fine, we do it to ourselves. Sterile animals can go through their courtship rituals, form bonded pairs, and copulate their brains out.
But we actually remove their sex organs and their sexual drives. We don't want them going through those courtship rituals because the noise and bedlam is too raucous for our artificial environment. Un-neutered pets are a real handful. They mark territory, they fight, they find a way to get through the fence, they make strange loud noises. We breed dogs and have five intact ones. We live out in the country with no neighbors and a very effective fence. And they still drive us nuts when its breeding time.
Nobody performs vasectomies and tubal ligations on male and female dogs and cats. They perform castrations and hysterectomies so the females never come into estrus and the males couldn't respond if they did. (Actually the joke is on us. Male dogs of breeds with a high incidence of the alpha gene, like the Lhasa Apsos we raise, can get an erection and get a tie with a bitch in heat. For them the instinct isn't just sexual, it's a way of vying for leadership of the pack. You've got to be the canine Arnold Schwarzenneger to be the one who gets to lead a pack of Lhasa Apsos or pitbulls, so even the weeniest ones have more testosterone than I do.)
All we're doing by breeding hybrids who themselves can't reproduce is creating individuals who can mate but not have offspring. That's not as cruel as you all make it out to be. Not nearly as big an affront to nature as taking away the source of their sexual hormones and making a drastic change in their personality, which I'm sure is the state of the dogs and cats living in the homes of 95 percent of the people who are reading this posting.
Sure it's an act of domination. We want camelids who are bigger than llamas but don't bite like camels. We want equines who can haul heavier loads than horses but are more tractable than asses. Most hybridizing is done purely for looks or sheer experimentation.
Having once been in the parrot business I've seen what people have accomplished over several generations of careful cross-breeding. A macaw that is 3/4 Scarlet Macaw and 1/4 Blue and Gold Macaw is a beautiful orange color. (They're called Camelot Macaws.) There's a long waiting list for one of those since it takes macaws five years to reach sexual maturity. And they're not sterile. You breed one back to another Scarlet and you get a Lavender Macaw.
You don't know whether what you're breeding is going to be sterile until you've got it. Sterility is almost never one of the goals of hybridization. Don't you think people would be delighted if they could get more mules just by letting the mules they already have breed with one another? I assure you, psittaculturists are deliriously happy that those Camelot Macaws are fertile!
When people discuss altering the sexual abilities of domestic animals, it makes us very uncomfortable, often to the point of irrationality. I've seen poor, frustrated, angry male dogs end up on the euthanasia table, because some damn macho male human just couldn't bring himself to cut the dog's balls off. So the dog spends his whole life smelling the pheromones of every female in heat within five miles (because some other stupid humans refuse to have their females spayed for similar reasons) and it drives him crazy.
Guys, imagine you're locked up in prison. But your cell has a wall completely open to the world with nothing but bars to keep you in. This prison is right on the beach. Every day you watch the girls walk by in their bikinis. Just for fun they walk up to the bars and make googly eyes at you and say they wish you could come out and play. They're wearing the most exquisite perfume, it must cost $10,000 an ounce. And you're going to remain locked in that cell for twenty years.
That's how an un-neutered male dog feels every day of his life. Unless he's a commercial breeder and actually gets to "do it" with the girls he lives with.
Get your facts straight, get your stories straight, and try to look at the world through the eyes and hormones of these poor animals who have no choice but to let us direct their lives. Some of the things we consider cruel are actually less so than the alternatives.
Yes, I want to see detailed explanation with examples, evidence, links, or even stories from personal experience. Any hint at depression? Because, I've always been told that getting house animals fixed does absolutely nothing to their personalities and only makes them happier.
Also, is there any alternative you can offer to getting house animals fixed? Truth is, not every kitten gets picked up by an owner. Not every owner that picks up a kitten is a good owner. Letting house animals run around on the street means soon death for many. I have seen dead cats on sidewalks, with their heads barely resembling heads.
Whether to neuter an animal is a matter of choice between greater and lesser damage.
I do hate people who gleefully say that they have a neutered pet. As if the sterilization was an act of punishing nature, and winning over nature.
We have a 20-year old neutered male cat. What would his personality be like if he weren't neutered? I don't know, and I don't think anyone can say for sure.
In the course of time, we had two other male cats, who weren't neutered: one died at the age of two in the winter, probably due to getting hit by a car (we found him frozen in the snow); the other one disappeared at the age of three (he was a big strong cat, very wild). It is hard to say why they were the way they were -- maybe the shyness of the first one and the wildness of the other one were due to growing up with an older dominant cat ...
Like I said, sterilization is not a choice between good or bad; it is a choice between greater and lesser damage, harm.
As for the sadness in the eyes of an animal: Our neighbours have two cats, a male and a female, both non-neutered. These cats are in a very poor physical condition -- but I think this is largely due to malnutrition, lack of grooming (the female is a longhair) and medical care (both have ear parasites), rather then due to them being non-neutered. As far as their personalities go: the male is shy and aggressive at the same time, the female is secondarily wild. They both like to be carressed though. They spend a lot of time at our house and at our garden (it's big enough) -- but apparently, we seem to have good karma or something, because a lot of cats simply like to be here ...
Having animals in captivity is already unnatural to some extent, but for cats and dogs this is now the main way of living.
If someone has a pet, then they should love and take care for those animals. If they refuse to love them and take care of them -- maybe then the animals are better off being non-neutered: they will die soon, but at least they will have some sort of life.
If you neuter an animal, then you must provide some sort of compensation -- good food, regular grooming and medical attention, and most of all, spend a lot of time and love with the animal.
I do hate people who gleefully say that they have a neutered pet. As if the sterilization was an act of punishing nature, and winning over nature.
We have a 20-year old neutered male cat. What would his personality be like if he weren't neutered? I don't know, and I don't think anyone can say for sure.
In the course of time, we had two other male cats, who weren't neutered: one died at the age of two in the winter, probably due to getting hit by a car (we found him frozen in the snow); the other one disappeared at the age of three (he was a big strong cat, very wild). It is hard to say why they were the way they were -- maybe the shyness of the first one and the wildness of the other one were due to growing up with an older dominant cat ...
Like I said, sterilization is not a choice between good or bad; it is a choice between greater and lesser damage, harm.
As for the sadness in the eyes of an animal: Our neighbours have two cats, a male and a female, both non-neutered. These cats are in a very poor physical condition -- but I think this is largely due to malnutrition, lack of grooming (the female is a longhair) and medical care (both have ear parasites), rather then due to them being non-neutered. As far as their personalities go: the male is shy and aggressive at the same time, the female is secondarily wild. They both like to be carressed though. They spend a lot of time at our house and at our garden (it's big enough) -- but apparently, we seem to have good karma or something, because a lot of cats simply like to be here ...
Having animals in captivity is already unnatural to some extent, but for cats and dogs this is now the main way of living.
If someone has a pet, then they should love and take care for those animals. If they refuse to love them and take care of them -- maybe then the animals are better off being non-neutered: they will die soon, but at least they will have some sort of life.
If you neuter an animal, then you must provide some sort of compensation -- good food, regular grooming and medical attention, and most of all, spend a lot of time and love with the animal.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
It depends on the age at which they're neutered. Once a male dog gets to be about 1 1/2 years old, their personality is pretty well fixed. Neutering won't change it noticeably. As I said, they'll still court the females in heat and mate with them if there are any around. You should have it done around six months, when their testicles start to descend. That way they won't develop as strong sex-linked behaviors. Less fighting, marking territory, etc. But it won't stop it completely, especially in the high-alpha breeds. As for depression, no, I've known a lot of neutered dogs and I've never seen that. Dogs get bouts of depression for a lot of reasons like people do, and you owe it to them to figure out the cause. Blaming it on being neutered is just a cop-out.whitewolf said:
The females, of course, only perform a lot of sex-linked behaviors when they're in estrus, and that won't happen once they're fixed. But again, with the high-alpha breeds, the instincts are strong. When our bitches have had enough litters that it's time to retire and get spayed, they continue to fight and try do all kinds of crazy stuff like killing another bitch's puppies. (In my experience, female dogs are really vicious, but perhaps it's just the breeds I'm familiar with.) Females who were spayed at six months are quite a bit mellower.
I don't have as much experience with cats, but what I do have points to the same conclusion. Get a male cat neutered as an adult and it won't bring about much of a behavior change. He'll still try to spend his nights outside howling with the other male cats over the female in heat next door. And if you get a female spayed at six months she will be pretty tractable.
No there isn't. As I said earlier, if all you want to do is prevent them from reproducing, you can just have them surgically sterilized so they can still mate. But I've never heard of anyone actually doing that. The vets I've talked to get a puzzled look and admit that they've never been trained to do that kind of surgery. It would probably have to be done at one of those top-end animal hospitals with specialists, and it would cost a fortune.
Most people are as bothered by the behavior as they are by the prospect of unwanted puppies or kittens. So they get them neutered, not just sterilized.
Yes, if you're not breeding registered purebreds then you shouldn't be breeding. Sure there are people who don't want a purebred but for every one who wants a mutt there are twenty mutts in the shelter and nineteen of them are going to be euthanized.
Yes, the same is true of puppies. We're very careful to not breed too many of them. We check out prospective owners very carefully. If we can't find good homes for a whole litter we just keep the extras. Eventually a special person comes along looking for an older dog, and if not we love them just fine ourselves.
Yes. It's getting increasingly hard for people to find a place to live where they can legally allow dogs OR cats to run loose. You just about have to go to a rural area to get away with it.
If you want a dog but your home doesn't have a big enough fenced yard, then get a smaller dog or go back to school and get a job that pays better so you can get a bigger yard. As for cats, there's no way to keep them inside a fence. Some people build huge walk-in outdoor "aviaries" for their cats and the cats enjoy them. But most cats adapt very well to always being indoors. After all, they sleep most of the time anyway, so what's the big deal? ^_^
…most of the hybrid big cats were breed by zoos because the public wanted to see something larger and more ferocious. Apparently to get a lioness to mate with something other you have to sedate her, which is nothing compared to what happens in dog breeding of course.
Still, its not really something which I think publicly funded zoos should be doing.
Still, its not really something which I think publicly funded zoos should be doing.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
You're talking about show breeders, who are a crazy lot and a tiny fraction of the breeding community.weebee said:
Those of us who are simply trying to breed happy, healthy pet dogs who look reasonably attractive do not have to take any extreme measures to get the male and female whose turn it is this season to mate.
Sometimes a female simply rejects a male, although it's far rarer than with humans. And sometimes their anatomy is just incompatible. Our old stud has very short legs and our newest bitch has very long legs, and they just can't get it together. So we let the younger stud have a go at it, he has legs up to here. They only managed one mating before her heat ended, but she had a litter of seven. We hadn't really wanted to breed those two because they're both black and white and we were afraid that we'd already satiated the market for black and white Lhasas, but we figured after only one mating she'd probably only have two or three pups. What a surprise, some of the pups were white with black spots, little Gateway computer ads. They were so cute that we sold six of them locally, without even having to drive to the nearest big city. Sometimes things just work out.
There's nothing hornier than a bitch in heat, except the nearest intact male.
As I've mentioned before, female dogs make a point of copulating with every male they can find. That way all the males feel that at least one of the puppies is theirs, but they don't know which one, so all the males protect all the puppies.
Not that you let than happen when you're breeding registered dogs and you have to manage your gene pool. My point is simply that dogs are programmed to copulate until they fall over from exhaustion. Anybody who goes to the trouble of sedating a bitch to get her to accept a particular male is off on the lunatic fringe by our standards.
I've heard that scottie dogs need a little help to breed. Their front legs are too short or something. Sounds odd to me, I mean just cuz their legs are too short doesn't mean they can't hop up.