Species defintion: Cattle verse Buffalo

So I don't get why the american buffalo are a species of their own? Most living buffalo have been cross breed with cattle (beefalo), and if they can cross breed and have the same habitat and general behaviors of each other why are they different species?
I know how you feel , Electric...


In my case...
The same thing happened with dogs. They are all descended from a very small number of wolves in Mesopotamia, and they spread around the world before any other dog pack was domesticated. (Previous suspicion that they originated in China during the Paleolithic Era turned out to be wrong after more extensive DNA analysis. They originated during the Agricultural Revolution, and came to clean up our trash rather than to help us hunt.) And also, it turns out that dogs and wolves are the same species. They have enough differentiation (smaller brains, modified dentition, different instincts) that they're classified as a subspecies, Canis lupus familiaris.
Try spending years learning this stuff (decades ago) for semi-professional reasons, presenting yourself as an authority on the subject (of the arm-chair variety, at least) and then drifting away for twenty some years. Come to this forum, get in a couple of heated arguments on the subject, knowing that you are right, then step back and realize the world changed while you weren't looking. Fraggle seems to keep up rather well, perhaps I am just too lazy. I mean, what choice do we have other than to accept the march of progress? (Primarily, in this case, due to the advances in DNA science.)

Anyway, it would be similar to waking up and finding out that there are only eight planets, not nine. Oh, wait...
 
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As I noted earlier, there is not enough variation in human DNA for speciation to occur as quickly as it might in other animals. The two dogs or cats in your living room probably have an enormously greater difference in DNA than there is between a human in Norway and one in Borneo.

Oh so you have evidence that the American buffalo and the Eurasian cattle are more genetically distinct then say Native American and a Caucasian? And if so are you saying there is a genetic breaking point where we can now say two groups of organism are now a different species?

We've been through two genetic bottelenecks: every one of us is descended from Mitochondrial Eve, who lived less than 200,000 years ago, and every one of us is descended from Y-Chromosome Adam, who lived less than 100,000 years ago. That really wipes out a species's genetic diversity!

Neat, but I fail to see the relevance in this information, but it does remind me that I should resubscribe to SciAm as I remember nostalgically reading this out of a scientific American years ago.

BTW, your timetable is wrong. The first human migration to the Western Hemisphere was only 15,000 years ago,

I never side they migrated to america several dozen thousand years ago just they split off genetically then, stop nitpicking.
 
EF

Yes, that evidence exists, in studies of the human genome. Genetic variability between human individuals and across what we laughingly call "races' is tiny. So the difference between caucasians and American native peoples is, indeed, much smaller than the genetic difference between bison and cattle.
 
EF

Yes, that evidence exists, in studies of the human genome. Genetic variability between human individuals and across what we laughingly call "races' is tiny. So the difference between caucasians and American native peoples is, indeed, much smaller than the genetic difference between bison and cattle.

Lesson in logic 1:
Humans are highly related therefore pigs and hogs are not.
Humans are highly related therefor gray aliens and reptile aliens are not.
Humans are highly related therefor [insert something] and [insert something else] are not.

These are all Non Sequiturs, their premise does not prove their conclusion. The relations of humans does not disprove the relation of any other organism, you need actual evidence on the relation of that other organism So I repeat show me that buffalo are cattle are more distinct then races of humans means show me how different humans are from each other AND how different cattle are from buffalo and that the latter is less then the former.

Now we have all seen studies on how related people are to each other, don't get me wrong, I'm just playing the devils advocate here, I'm asking for the same evidence in reverse in defining the distinction of buffalo and cattle.
 
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EF

Taxonomic divisions are supposed to be, and mostly are, reflected by genetic divisions. In other words, two populations within one species will be genetically more similar to each other than a population is to another population that is a member of a different genus.

Native Americans and caucasians are both members of Homo sapiens. The genetic difference between them is very small. In fact, it is a lot smaller than the genetic difference between, for example, two populations of chimpanzee living in different parts of Africa.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1904301.htm

However, bison and cattle are from different genera. Bison are Bison bison. Domestic cattle are Bos taurus. And that's no bull!

Each of those two genera have several species. Genetic similarity within those genera will be much greater than across genera.
 
EF

Taxonomic divisions are supposed to be, and mostly are, reflected by genetic divisions. In other words, two populations within one species will be genetically more similar to each other than a population is to another population that is a member of a different genus.

LOL! Many taxonomic divisions were made decades ago even over a century ago your telling me they could determine the genetic relation of organism then? And if so where is this standard of genetic division they use to determine a new species or genus or phyla, etc? Do they use counts of SNPs or something? and if so how the fuck did they do that before the age of modern genetics?

Native Americans and caucasians are both members of Homo sapiens. The genetic difference between them is very small. In fact, it is a lot smaller than the genetic difference between, for example, two populations of chimpanzee living in different parts of Africa.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1904301.htm

Again not evidence for genetic relation of Cattle and Buffalo.

However, bison and cattle are from different genera. Bison are Bison bison. Domestic cattle are Bos taurus. And that's no bull!

Each of those two genera have several species. Genetic similarity within those genera will be much greater than across genera.

Lesson in logic 2:
"Taxonomy has cattle and buffalo as different species."
"why?"
"Because they are genetically not a single species."
"how do you know that?"
"Because Taxonomy has cattle and buffalo as different species."

This is call "Begging the question" fallacy or also circular logic, it uses the conclusion to prove its own premise and vice verse, without bring in valid evidence to prove either. Its the same kind of fallacy as this little gem:

"God must exist."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"Why should I believe the Bible?"
"Because the Bible was written by God."
 
I think it has to do with the fact that the cattle aren't from here? They're introduced?

I assume that there just wasn't enough genetic drift between bison and cattle for them to lose the ability to interbreed, but had not white folks brought them, the cattle and bison wouldn't have bred?
That is really weird, isn't it?:shrug:

Wolf and dog have the same pliable genetics...however, somehow we bred them dumber. Don't worry, they'd just use their brains to get into trouble. I say this as the custodian of multiple dogs. I also knew someone who adopted a wolf-hybrid...eerily smart, very neurotic, regularly trashed the house when upset about something.

Edited to add: since we were discussing people, Africans have the greatest amount of genetic variance. All non-Africans tend to be more homogenous.

But we still don't have a lot of variance.
 
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Oh so you have evidence that the American buffalo and the Eurasian cattle are more genetically distinct then say Native American and a Caucasian?
No, sorry. As a dog breeder I try to stay slightly more informed than the average layman about canine biology but I'll let somebody else take care of bovine biology. These days most cattle breeders are frelling experts in genetics.
And if so are you saying there is a genetic breaking point where we can now say two groups of organism are now a different species?
Considering how many species were identified long before modern DNA analysis was available, I'm sure that only a relatively small fraction of them have actually had their genome mapped. I'm not clear on how biologists actually define the word "species." After looking it up on Wikipedia I get the impression that they're not very clear about it either. The same is true of "genus," and scientists even admit that they quarrel about it among themselves.

Ironically, I think we have more rigorous definitions of "population" and "subspecies" than of "species" and "genus."

All we can do is try to conform to the naming conventions used in science, or we'll lose all coherence.
I never side they migrated to america several dozen thousand years ago just they split off genetically then, stop nitpicking.
Forgive me if I misunderstood you. Presumably you know that the Native Americans split off from the rest of the "mongoloid" peoples long enough ago that they have a few of their own genetic markers that identify them as a distinct population--or at least did until the Christian armies came. The people of the Western Hemisphere don't have the epicanthic eye fold that is widely used as a shorthand definition of "Orientals." Apparently that mutation happened after they had already departed for the Americas.
I think it has to do with the fact that the cattle aren't from here? They're introduced?
Cattle were one of the very first domesticated animals, and different species were domesticated independently in different regions: the zebu, the European taurine cattle, and the aurochs, which is ancestral to both but continued to survive until the 17th century. Modern cattle are hybrids of these three species of genus Bos, and other members of the genus (such as the yak) have been added to the bloodlines as well.

No species of Bos is native to the Western Hemisphere, which may have been one reason why agriculture was so difficult to establish here. Cattle are relatively docile and they are extremely amenable to inter-species crossbreeding, just what the early Stone Age agricultural tribes needed.
I assume that there just wasn't enough genetic drift between bison and cattle for them to lose the ability to interbreed . . . .
Apparently so, although as I pointed out earlier, this is by no means a unique phenomenon. It happens with felines and psittacines as well.
Wolf and dog have the same pliable genetics...however, somehow we bred them dumber.
That happened more-or-less naturally. The maintenance of brain tissue requires a huge amount of protein in the diet. As dogs transitioned from full-time predators with a 100% meat diet to midden scavengers with an omnivorous diet, they had to adapt to a lower protein intake.
I also knew someone who adopted a wolf-hybrid...eerily smart, very neurotic, regularly trashed the house when upset about something.
In the 24,000 generations that dogs have gone through since they first joined our multi-species community, their instincts have evolved, in addition to their brains and their teeth.
  • They are much more gregarious. Wolf packs rarely have ten adult members, whereas feral dog packs number in the dozens. Wolves are hostile to strangers; dogs often greet strangers with a cautious invitation to play.
  • Their gregarious nature extends to other species; not just humans but almost any animal that shares our home and is too large and quiet to be mistaken for a squeaky chew toy.
  • They have a much lower incidence of the alpha instinct. Wolves frequently fight for dominance; most dogs readily defer to the leadership of anyone who demands the role, even another species.
As I have noted before, humans have a much longer breeding cycle so we've only gone through a few hundred generations in that same time period. As a result, ironically, dogs are actually better adapted to the civilization we have created together than we are!
since we were discussing people, Africans have the greatest amount of genetic variance. All non-Africans tend to be more homogenous.
That's because we are all descended from a group of individuals from a single tribe that ventured out of Africa: the San or "Bushmen." Our DNA matches theirs, with the predictable drift from 50,000 years of separation. Of course when North Africa turned into a desert there was considerable migration of peoples and the San now live in the south.
 
EF

Cattle and buffalo were classified as different genera because of the large physical differences between them. We now know that this is due to genetic differences. While that was not known at the time of original classification, the genetic differences were still there. In spite of the fact that a great deal of genetic study has been done recently on both genera, biologists retained the two genera distinction. This implies the genetic differences reflect the physical differences.

You can appreciate the physical differences by looking at photos of different members of genus Bison and comparing them to different members of genus Bos. The physical similarities within genus are clear cut, while the physical differences across genera is also very clear.
 
EF

Cattle and buffalo were classified as different genera because of the large physical differences between them.

So? They thought "Negros" were at the very least a sub-species because of the "large physical difference between them".

We now know that this is due to genetic differences.

Show this evidence!
 
fraggle said:
There are plenty of bison around, entire herds, even wild ones. They have not interbred with feral cattle, despite opportunity.

Wikipedia does not agree. It says that of the 350,000 wild American bison, the vast majority are genetically polluted by cattle DNA.
That is not the same as interbreeding in the wild. It is mainly a diluted gene flow - an artifact of the comparatively small number of wild bison being vulnerable to the effects of a larger captive bred and hybrid population, in close proximity.

The herds of Texas longhorn cattle, feral cattle in the eastern woodlands, etc, have not been similarly affected. It's not a reciprocal interbreeding of two wild populations.
electric said:
So? They thought "Negros" were at the very least a sub-species because of the "large physical difference between them".
Which differences have been shown to be errors in data collection, made from bias.

The physical differences between cattle and bison, in everything including major behavioral differences, have been far more robust under scrutiny.
 
So I don't get why the american buffalo are a species of their own? Most living buffalo have been cross breed with cattle (beefalo), and if they can cross breed and have the same habitat and general behaviors of each other why are they different species?
The question is justified.
Currently there are two classification systems.
The one I've learned The Linnaean classification and a new one The Evolutionary taxonomy

This new classification gives the following:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammal
Order: Artiodactyla
Family Bovidae
A bovid is any of almost 140 species of cloven-hoofed mammals belonging to the family Bovidae. The family is widespread, being native to Asia, Africa, Europe and North America, and diverse: members include bison, African buffalo, water buffalo, antelopes, gazelles, sheep, goats, muskoxen, and domestic cattle.

Subfamily:Bovinae
The biological subfamily Bovinae includes a diverse group of 10 genera of medium to large sized ungulates, including domestic cattle, the bison, African buffalo, the water buffalo, the yak, and the four-horned and spiral-horned antelopes. The evolutionary relationship between the members of the group is obscure, and their classification into loose tribes rather than formal sub-groups reflects this uncertainty. General characteristics include cloven hoofs and usually at least one of the sexes of a species having true horns.
In most countries, bovids are used for food. Cattle are eaten almost everywhere except in major parts of India and Nepal, where bovids are considered sacred by Hindus.

Genus:Bos
Bos is the genus of wild and domestic cattle. Bos can be divided into four subgenera: Bos, Bibos, Novibos, and Poephagus, but these divisions are controversial. The genus has five extant species. However, this may rise to seven if the domesticated varieties are counted as separate species, and nine if the closely related genus Bison ("While these species are usually grouped into their own genus, they are sometimes included in the closely related genus Bos,[1] together with cattle, gaur, kouprey and yaks, with which bison have a limited ability to interbreed".) is also included.[1] Modern species of cattle are believed to have originated from the extinct aurochs.

Subgenus Bos:
Bos primigenius (aurochs) †
Bos taurus (cattle, domesticated form of Bos primigenius)
Bos indicus (zebu, domesticated form of Bos primigenius)
Bos aegyptiacus (Egyptian cattle; name not recognized by ITIS) †
Bos acutifrons †
Bos planifrons †
 
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electric said:
Where is the evidence for this?
For starters, the simple fact that the scrutinizers, who have been very diligent (with big money at stake, as well as much pure scientific investigation - into such matters as the evolution of the bison in NA through the various ice ages, the genetic relationships between the various subspecies of bison extant, and so forth) retain the standard classifications,

as well as the simple observation that human beings everywhere immediately recognize bison as not being a kind of cattle, with the more experienced people becoming firmer in that distinction rather than more compromising,

added to the maintenance of species separation between herds of feral cattle and bison in well-monitored situations (the prairie land reserves in Nebraska and other Plains states, say),

and many other considerations that will occur to the idle speculator in the matter,

are perfectly good evidence in a discussion such as this.

Bison are really quite different from Holsteins and Guernseys, and I think the burden of evidence is squarely on those who would claim this large difference is some kind of illusion. Simply being able to hybridize with cattle, and even more strikingly hybridizing with success only under arranged and artificial special conditions controlled by humans, is not nearly enough.
 
electric said:
Where is the evidence for this?
For starters, the simple fact that the scrutinizers, who have been very diligent (with big money at stake, as well as much pure scientific investigation - into such matters as the evolution of the bison in NA through the various ice ages, the genetic relationships between the various subspecies (often simply called "species", with reason - not only are bison different species from cattle, but some bison are different species from other bison) of bison extant, and so forth, retain the standard classifications,

as well as the simple observation that human beings everywhere immediately recognize bison as not being a kind of cattle, with the more experienced people becoming firmer in that distinction rather than more compromising,

added to the maintenance of species separation between herds of wild cattle and bison in well-monitored situations (the prairie land reserves in Nebraska and other Plains states, say),

and many other considerations that will occur to the idle speculator in the matter,

are perfectly good evidence in a discussion such as this.

Bison are really quite different from Holsteins and Guernseys, and I think the burden of evidence is squarely on those who would claim this large difference is some kind of illusion. Simply being able to hybridize with cattle, and even more strikingly hybridizing with success only under arranged and artificial special conditions controlled by humans, is not nearly enough.

Consider the consequences of adopting that as one's criterion, trumping all others: cattle also cross with yaks - if that makes cattle with yaks one species, and cattle with NA bison one species, then NA bison and yaks are one species. But since European bison do not cross as readily with cattle (sex linked half sterility), we have lumped cattle, yaks, and NA bison into one species and set European bison apart as at most a subspecies - your relationship tree has NA bison and yaks more closely related than NA bison and European bison.
 
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For starters, the simple fact that the scrutinizers, who have been very diligent (with big money at stake, as well as much pure scientific investigation - into such matters as the evolution of the bison in NA through the various ice ages, the genetic relationships between the various subspecies (often simply called "species", with reason - not only are bison different species from cattle, but some bison are different species from other bison) of bison extant, and so forth, retain the standard classifications,

That not proof of anything, a geneticist, a biologist, may not be a taxonomist.

as well as the simple observation that human beings everywhere immediately recognize bison as not being a kind of cattle, with the more experienced people becoming firmer in that distinction rather than more compromising,

Again this is not evidence either that just an appeal to popularity!

added to the maintenance of species separation between herds of wild cattle and bison in well-monitored situations (the prairie land reserves in Nebraska and other Plains states, say),

And yet genetically most of surviving Buffalo herds are polluted with cattle genes.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2387208
 
electric said:
That not proof of anything, a geneticist, a biologist, may not be a taxonomist.
? The scrutinizers come in all kinds - geneticists, biologists, taxonomists, paleontologists, animal breeders, conservationists, basically everyone who knows anything about bison and cattle.
electric said:
Again this is not evidence either that just an appeal to popularity!
It's an appeal to universal judgment - conventional wisdom, which you need evidence to overturn.
electric said:
And yet genetically most of surviving Buffalo herds are polluted with cattle genes.
So?

So are yaks, in places. Does that make bison and yaks the same species? The wisent and the bison the same species? Are you going to put every bovid that can interbreed with cattle into the same species?
 
? The scrutinizers come in all kinds - geneticists, biologists, taxonomists, paleontologists, animal breeders, conservationists, basically everyone who knows anything about bison and cattle.

Yet its the Taxonomist that dictates what its categorizes as in the end.

It's an appeal to universal judgment - conventional wisdom, which you need evidence to overturn.

This is not based on inarguable proof, this is choosing a name, choosing a category for things, its based on aesthetics as much as reason! Taxonomist choose these names and categories for arbitrary reasons, reasons they don't even keep consistent from one phyla to another! They have no consistent rules or reasoning for their names and categories, nothing definite, Its not X # of SNPs differences makes a genus XX # of SNPs differences makes a new phyla, nothing like that. They see two animals and based on their physicality, morphology, geography, they will says "these are different species" and then they see two other animals of equal or greater differences from the former and say "these are subspecies" and then genetic evidence might come in and they says "fuck that we are keeping the naming we have established for over a century" for one species and yet for another they will say "Ohh that great we will make a new genus" or what ever.

So are yaks, in places. Does that make bison and yaks the same species? The wisent and the bison the same species? Are you going to put every bovid that can interbreed with cattle into the same species?

Maybe! Species is just a made up term with clearly no definite meaning! If we can make all hogs and pigs the same species even the ones with different chromosomes counts, why not Bovids? And if your going to say well Yaks and Buffalo and cattle are so physically different, well so "Negroids" and "Mongoloids" and "Caucasoids" , should we call those different species too?

What I want to see from Taxonomy is a set of rules for naming and categorizing that are inarguable, definite, and consistent; because at present taxonomy is fundamentally malarkey!
 
EF

There is an element of truth in what you say. Taxonomy is, indeed, a bit of a mess. However, the taxonomic classifications were set up using the best data available at the time. I believe the early taxonomists did not do too bad a job, in spite of some errors uncovered with modern methods.

The crux of this argument is the question of "what is a species?" If you want to say that the potential to interbreed means no species distinction, then we are left with taxonomy in even more of a mess! I think that is buying trouble, and we should stick, for now, with the currently accepted distinctions, which includes bison and cattle being in different, though related, genera.

If future taxonomists, using advanced genetic techniques, overturn that, then fine. For now we work with what is widely accepted.
 
EF

There is an element of truth in what you say. Taxonomy is, indeed, a bit of a mess. However, the taxonomic classifications were set up using the best data available at the time. I believe the early taxonomists did not do too bad a job, in spite of some errors uncovered with modern methods.

The crux of this argument is the question of "what is a species?" If you want to say that the potential to interbreed means no species distinction, then we are left with taxonomy in even more of a mess! I think that is buying trouble, and we should stick, for now, with the currently accepted distinctions, which includes bison and cattle being in different, though related, genera.

If future taxonomists, using advanced genetic techniques, overturn that, then fine. For now we work with what is widely accepted.

Yes, this is I enjoy, coming to these conclusions. The system is contrived, and yes the solutions are likely to provide even more problems than the ones that exist, but I would like to explore that for an instant. Lets say we sequences the genomes of a fair percentage of the species on the planet, lets say we could genomically predict the viability of hybrids, we would likely end up with a variety of genus which would becomes a single species with a huge number of very different sub-species and sub-sub-species, and now with a more complex but definite category what will we have gained... nothing! Categorizing it such as to reference its genetic history is irrelevant, efficient but irrelevant, you could look up the genetic history separate for all it matters, but at its fundamentals it just a name.
 
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