Spanking Your Kids: Discipline or Abuse?

[sifreak21]

There was recently a tyra show on this. trying to find the episode online and all I can seem to find as a 4 min clip that is like a teaser. if anyone knows where the full episode is please!!!! let me know

as for the topic do you believe in spanking or not? some say its not right and there are other ways. I grew up with parents that spanked.. I still respect them to this day for it. I wasnt the best of children and spanking was a last resort if moms "look" didnt work

Just seems like the kids of today are given Way to much power and parents arnt allowed to really parent anymore..

an older guy i work with was on a run with his daughter.. she was pulling the leaves off trees overhanging the sidewalk. he told her to stop 3-4 times the 5th time she did it he stopped her.. went up to her grabbed a single piece of hair and pulled it out.. of course she said "ouch" he said " see you dont like it either do you" after that she stopped.. the next day child services shows up at his hows because abuse was reported. Stories like these ,and have heard many more,outrage me and i do believe that children have way to much power these days

I however dont believe that you should beable to beat your child there is a difference between beating and discipline.

I would just like to hear members from both sides input i am going to add a poll if i can figure out how to

 

[Tiassa]

Lessons of the story

Just seems like the kids of today are given Way to much power and parents arnt allowed to really parent anymore..

an older guy i work with was on a run with his daughter.. she was pulling the leaves off trees overhanging the sidewalk. he told her to stop 3-4 times the 5th time she did it he stopped her.. went up to her grabbed a single piece of hair and pulled it out.. of course she said "ouch" he said " see you dont like it either do you" after that she stopped.. the next day child services shows up at his hows because abuse was reported. Stories like these ,and have heard many more,outrage me and i do believe that children have way to much power these days

I however dont believe that you should beable to beat your child there is a difference between beating and discipline.

Lessons of that story:

(1) Discuss things logically when possible. To wit, I wouldn't have to pull a strand of my daughter's hair as such. I can make the point he was hoping for any time I'm brushing her hair. Simply by brushing her hair. That kid has an amazing talent for getting these insane knots and nests in her hair.

(2) If you intend to condition your child's behavior through the administration of pain, do it in private, where nobody can see it.

(3) The father in the story chose a route intended to be convenient to the parent. This is not always so convenient over the long term.​

Other than that, a couple of notes. Obviously, I presume child services came in response to a report that he had pulled a single strand of the girl's hair. This cannot be proved either way, but he should be able to find out at least what the report said, if not who filed it.

Tyra? I'm not going to bring out my green hat against an overlapping thread. Nor am I going to close it for opening with, "There was recently a Tyra show on this", but if that phrase gets people's attention at all, I can only promise you it won't be positive.

Adding a Poll: Look up. Just above your name and avatar for the topic post. There is a gray bar running across the screen. At the left is "View First Unread". At right should be a couple of links, including "Thread Tools". Click that for a drop-down menu. As the topic poster for this thread, you should have an option to add a poll. Select that option, and click "Perform Action" at the bottom of the list. You should be taken to a screen for creating polls.

 

[soullust]

yes, i was lazy and didn't read the post, but i get the drift, from the topic.

and a spanking when a kid is young shows authority, and teaches kids to respect authority, you don't have to hit them so hard that they have a swollen ass, for a week.

But todays kids, are getting less and less, respectfully to authority, i think a little more discipline, would be good, spanking here and there might be the answer.

 

[sifreak21]

only reason i put tyra in the topic is because the discussion got very heated aparenty.. the man i know asked his daughter 3-4 times stopped and said dont pull the leaves off the tree that didnt work so he had to take it a step further.. and no, no one else saw him do it.. aparently in school the topic of child abuse came up.. she said here dad pulled a piece of hair out.. the tearcher reported it to child services

 

[sifreak21]

i would Edit the poll so just the numbers show up and not the names not quite sure how to do that tho

 

[visceral_instinct]

Yes it's abuse.

There are plenty of punishments you can use that don't involve laying a hand on that young human being.

 

[sifreak21]

Yes it's abuse.

There are plenty of punishments you can use that don't involve laying a hand on that young human being.

what other punishments? in the example the child has done the same thing 3+ times maybe even looked at you when they did it intentionally defying what you said..

and when there is abuse there is psychological problems when they grow up.. me along with id bet ALOT of useres here were spanked, and have no psychological problems as adults or needed therapy nor have i heard of any child that was spanked have psychological problems

 

[John99]

only reason i put tyra in the topic is because the discussion got very heated aparenty.. the man i know asked his daughter 3-4 times stopped and said dont pull the leaves off the tree that didnt work so he had to take it a step further.. and no, no one else saw him do it.. aparently in school the topic of child abuse came up.. she said here dad pulled a piece of hair out.. the tearcher reported it to child services

I never pulled someones hair out myself so dont know what it entails but i think that a very young child's hair would come out easier than a full grown adult. If a 'piece' of hair came out i know that i can just pull randomly on my hair and come out with a few strands. Of course leaving a bald patch is definitely NOT acceptable, but a bald patch would be noticeable to people, which was not the case in the tale.

Instead of pulling leaves off a tree the kid could be repeatedly attempting to run into a street and i see nothing wrong with it spanking a kid in a situation like that. Usually the parent is visualizing situations like this in that they would conclude that 'if this kid does not listen to me while pulling leaves out they will not listen to me when i tell them to stop running into traffic'. And by then it is too late...and the parent gets into more trouble.

 

[sifreak21]

I never pulled someones hair out myself so dont know what it entails but i think that a very young child's hair would come out easier than a full grown adult. If a 'piece' of hair came out i know that i can just pull randomly on my hair and come out with a few strands. Of course leaving a bald patch is definitely NOT acceptable, but a bald patch would be noticeable to people, which was not the case in the tale.

Instead of pulling leaves off a tree the kid could be repeatedly attempting to run into a street and i see nothing wrong with it spanking a kid in a situation like that. Usually the parent is visualizing situations like this in that they would conclude that 'if this kid does not listen to me while pulling leaves out they will not listen to me when i tell them to stop running into traffic'. And by then it is too late...and the parent gets into more trouble.

very true, and I didnt mean pull a chunk of hair out that is unacceptable. but a single piece is different the parent should make that judgement..

I was a terrible kid and before my parents started spanking me i wouldnt really care what they said because i knew they werent going to do anything.. put me in timeout? just walk out of the room.. but when they started spanking me i knew the repercutions of my actions were painfull so i started listening i guess you could say "i feared the paddle"

 

[visceral_instinct]

what other punishments? in the example the child has done the same thing 3+ times maybe even looked at you when they did it intentionally defying what you said..

and when there is abuse there is psychological problems when they grow up.. me along with id bet ALOT of useres here were spanked, and have no psychological problems as adults or needed therapy nor have i heard of any child that was spanked have psychological problems

Um, try actually following through a punishment? Ground them for a week? Take away something they really love doing?

Is that part of the definition of abuse? I didn't know that...

 

[sifreak21]

Um, try actually following through a punishment? Ground them for a week? Take away something they really love doing?

Is that part of the definition of abuse? I didn't know that...

oh they did.. i just walked outside.. tured the tv on.. my parents had jobs so they couldnt watch me 100% of the time so when they werent i would just go do what i wasnt suppose to.. after all i could easily outrun them so with your mindset im still at square one.. oh by the way the thing i loved more than anything was the outdoors.. so when i was grounded i wasnt allowed outside.. wasnt hard at all to get there when i was grounded either

 

[CutsieMarie89]

oh they did.. i just walked outside.. tured the tv on.. my parents had jobs so they couldnt watch me 100% of the time so when they werent i would just go do what i wasnt suppose to.. after all i could easily outrun them so with your mindset im still at square one.. oh by the way the thing i loved more than anything was the outdoors.. so when i was grounded i wasnt allowed outside.. wasnt hard at all to get there when i was grounded either

Which is why discipline should be implemented on an individual basis. Different things effect everyone differently. Even torture experts will tell you that. What is a punishment to some is a reward to another. Just because one kid responded well to one thing does not mean the next kid will even respond.
Grounding didn't work on me, I never really felt like I was being punished. I liked my room and had a pretty active imagination at my disposal so I could easily entertain myself when in timeout and even having my most precious possessions taken away from me didn't bother me because I'd knew I could live without them. I was only spanked like 3 times, but I responded well to it. If I got spanked for something I never did it again. Just knowing someone was angry with me was all the punishment I needed, even to this day its all I need to correct my behavior.
Of course children like my younger brother were not bothered by others feelings. He was a really bad kid, and the methods my parents used on me had no effect on him. Spankings just made him angrier, explaining why he shouldn't do something was a bad idea because chances were he wasn't listening to you and even if he was he'd forget within the hour, sending him to his room didn't work because he would just destroy stuff (like the door, walls and windows), but unlike me he did respond well to having things taken away.
I bet my own children will be respond to entirely different methods as well. You have to know your child's personality and know what's best for both your child and for your sanity.

 

[Psyche]

as for the topic do you believe in spanking or not? some say its not right and there are other ways. I grew up with parents that spanked.. I still respect them to this day for it. I wasnt the best of children and spanking was a last resort if moms "look" didnt work

In reality, the idea of "bad children" is the chosen mythology of society for rationalizing its callous attitude and abusive behavior towards children. Parents that are too busy or emotionally immature to model empathic, rational, consistent behavior are not within their rights to manage their guilt through physical aggression, withdrawal of attention, or other abusive measures against their kids. Any parent who spanks is proving they have never had any concept of respect to begin with, and are merely using pious rhetoric to mask the arbitrary exercise of power over defenseless people who are, by course of nature, too closely attached to be able to process the aggression in an an objective manner (hence, the parent remains blameless).

Just seems like the kids of today are given Way to much power and parents arnt allowed to really parent anymore..

an older guy i work with was on a run with his daughter.. she was pulling the leaves off trees overhanging the sidewalk. he told her to stop 3-4 times the 5th time she did it he stopped her.. went up to her grabbed a single piece of hair and pulled it out.. of course she said "ouch" he said " see you dont like it either do you" after that she stopped.. the next day child services shows up at his hows because abuse was reported. Stories like these ,and have heard many more,outrage me and i do believe that children have way to much power these days

What's outrageous about this story is that the boundaries of a young girl experimenting with the physics of the world as any bright young mind would be were violated, that she was treated with less respect than a series of plants by her own father. Yet the father, having chosen have the child in the first place making the relationship entirely his responsibility, the one who has the power of a god over life and death in comparison with the girl, is reported here as the "victim", simply because she responded to his commands with the dignity befitting any person who is not a dog. One should be cautioned, that the power to pull a few leaves off a tree is not evidence that children have become too powerful, and failure to obey the arbitrary and irrational whims of adults who have never worked on their self esteem is not a sign that the world is coming apart. Studies have shown that children from a young age get the difference between moral rules such as don't hit people, versus local preferences such as don't pull leaves off the tree. The daughter in this story didn't yet have the crushing weight of her own poor upbringing yet informing her every interaction with authority, but I guess the father can take comfort in that there will be a day where she will be incapable of disobeying with a clear conscience.

I however dont believe that you should beable to beat your child there is a difference between beating and discipline.

Evil comes into this world through the mistreatment of children, not because children have innate badness that adults have to discipline out of them.

 

[jayleew]

Yes it's abuse.

There are plenty of punishments you can use that don't involve laying a hand on that young human being.

Of course there are. Here's the thing, every child is different and every situation is different. We can't blanket the issue and say, "Yes, spanking is wrong in all cases."

Suffice it to say, spanking should be a last resort and used only in rare cases where it is imperative that the child behaves. Like, if harm would come to another person. Or if the behavior is affecting the parents in a way that would bring harm to the children. And only when there is no time to administer a different form of punishment.

I have two children. A girl of twelve, who was spanked maybe twice in her life somewhere between 3 and 5. She is a complete angel. And, we have a boy who was spanked until a year ago when we learned that is ineffective with him. He is 9 now, and is still struggling and placed in alternative schooling, but is doing better as he grows up. We have him in therapy and a psichiatrist has him on Focalin. I hope one day he can learn to manage himself without the medication, but for now it's what makes him more normal.

Even if you had 20 children that you raised and never spanked any of them, you can't say it wasn't necessary for my son. There are times when it is imperative to spank. Sometimes if you don't, the child could bring harm to many people. That is the times we had to spank our son, to establish control where control was lost because of the situation we unknowingly put ourselves in. Now with our son, once we had him on the right medication, he is able to help us with control like a normal child. Spanking should be used as the bailout button. Only when we truly have to or else face responsibility for harm done by our child.

Although the situation would be extreme, it is impossible to say spanking is wrong in all cases just because you've not explored every case.

Violence does not solve violence. But, it can establish order, where diplomacy can resume.

 

[Nasor]

an older guy i work with was on a run with his daughter.. she was pulling the leaves off trees overhanging the sidewalk. he told her to stop 3-4 times the 5th time she did it he stopped her.. went up to her grabbed a single piece of hair and pulled it out.. of course she said "ouch" he said " see you dont like it either do you"

Given that trees don't have nerves and can't experience pain, this is actually a pretty stupid "lesson."

 

[visceral_instinct]

@Jayleew: yes, I admit my post was a bit extreme.

For me the idea of anyone laying a hand on me when I was a kid, I cannot see that as discipline. I see it as a gross violation of a child human being. The one time my stepfather so much as threatened to beat me, I didn't respond by being deferential. I attacked him and cut his face with my nails. (yeah, I got ASD traits, including the fits and rages...)

The way I saw it, calmly taking away a privilege was discipline. Saying coolly 'Right, you've insisted on being disruptive, so no TV for you for the rest of the week' was discipline. Hitting someone just seemed to me like the actions of a savage with no neocortex. Someone to be feared, not respected.

On the other hand, there were punishments that worked very well on me. Taking away the privilege of swimming sessions worked just fine.

However, not everyone is like me. For some kids the odd spanking is the gunshot in the air that restores order. If for example they were about to do something dangerous like run into the path of a car, yes, I think a spanking is preferable to a fractured spine.

 

[jayleew]

However, not everyone is like me. For some kids the odd spanking is the gunshot in the air that restores order. If for example they were about to do something dangerous like run into the path of a car, yes, I think a spanking is preferable to a fractured spine.

The problem I see is it is very hard to allow spanking, but protect children from abuse. It is easier to attack the issue by referencing freedom of choice, but that's not exactly cut and dry. This is why society has unwritten rules, to take care of the gray areas. The spanking laws in some states like mine (Indiana) allow for spanking and the judges were considering a lot of gray areas when they were writing the law. The result is a flimsy law that is very dependant on the situation. It isn't cut and dry. But, if you are caught spanking you will find CPS at your door who will fight for the child regardless of if the spanking was actually legal or not.

 

[stateofmind]

The other day I was babysitting my little brother (8) and my little sister (9). We were all in the kitchen and I was about to start dinner. Well my little brother was sort of annoying me - I had no shoes on and he was balancing all his weight on my foot. He weighs like 55 pounds so this was not pleasant. I told him to stop and he kept doing it. It eventually got to the point where I would just nudge him away when he tried to step on my foot. Then it got to the point where he would run up and step on my foot quickly, to test my authority.

I told him that if he continued to do it I was going to smack him. Well he had his "I don't care" - fake-enjoyment-face on and after 3 more times I smacked him open handed over the top of his head pretty good. He froze. He turned around to me and just looked bewildered. I don't think I had ever hit him before that moment. He ran upstairs in obvious distress and shut himself in his room.

Right after it happened I felt terrible about it. Thinking about it now I remember my dad smacking me the same exact way when he was playing music in a small fire hall and I was goofing off with my friends. And I remember being bewildered at how hard he hit me.

I spent the next 10 minutes outside his room (didn't even try to turn the handle) telling him how sorry I was for doing that and promised him that I'd never do it again and that I was wrong in doing it. He's gotten in those intentional annoying moods before and I've just simply asked him why he was being that way to good results. Usually when I did this I'd find out some hidden motive. I KNOW this is a better way to deal with a problem than force but I messed up and had to relearn the lesson.

I still feel guilty about it. I think the most troubling part about it for me is that the dynamics of our relationship must have changed. How can he view us as equals again? Now he'll always know that the bottom line is that I'm stronger than him and that's what dictates the rules.

I don't think a perfectly adjusted person would ever spank their child - though I don't know. Unless we become different people through some kind of transformation of consciousness, it will never work to make it illegal or whatever for parents to spank their children. The abuse will just be redirected into some other form of punishment that has the same effect.

 

[sifreak21]

Given that trees don't have nerves and can't experience pain, this is actually a pretty stupid "lesson."

well the stupid lesson got her to stop so must not have been that stupid eh?

 

[sifreak21]

The problem I see is it is very hard to allow spanking, but protect children from abuse. It is easier to attack the issue by referencing freedom of choice, but that's not exactly cut and dry. This is why society has unwritten rules, to take care of the gray areas. The spanking laws in some states like mine (Indiana) allow for spanking and the judges were considering a lot of gray areas when they were writing the law. The result is a flimsy law that is very dependant on the situation. It isn't cut and dry. But, if you are caught spanking you will find CPS at your door who will fight for the child regardless of if the spanking was actually legal or not.

so your alowing the goverment to tell you how to parent your children? i have yet to see anyone link 1 study that has 100% of the children have longterm effects and i bet over 70% of people on this forum were spanked and they all dont have long term effects.. if the child gets bruses and cuts yes CPS needs to step in but if the child just starts crying lesson learned it isnt abuse