Spacetime Is a Fairytale

Lakon

Valued Senior Member
I used to read a lot over at a site called Physicsforums. They are extremely intolerant of any kind of woo, alternative science, or even any discussion on non-peered review issues.

Some moths ago then, I was stunned to see a thread styled "Spacetime Is a Fairytale" in their cosmology page, and such thread started, no less than by one of their most senior, respected and long term mentor / moderator. It linked this paper, the credentials of which appear to be impecable;

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3837v2.pdf

Strangely, there was barely a comment, though I did notice the use of the word 'spacetime' decline perceptably for some time afterwards. Last time I looked the thread is still there, open, with NO comments.

And in a thread in Alternative Theories here, I also made reference to it, but no one commented on it.

Now, as a non scientist and definitely a non mathematician, I can understand no more of what I read in said paper, than this ..

Spacetime is the fairy tale of a classical manifold. It is irreconcilable with quantum effects in gravity
and most likely, in a strict sense, it does not exist. But to dismiss a mythical being that has inspired
generations just because it does not really exist is foolish. Rather it should be understood together with
the story-tellers through whom and in whom the being exist. ”


But even that, is just .. WOW !

What do the scientific folk 'round here think about it ?

Yes, I know this is a science forum therefore cannot ask you for simple explanations. But I hope to gleen what I can from any comments.
 
I used to read a lot over at a site called Physicsforums. They are extremely intolerant of any kind of woo, alternative science, or even any discussion on non-peered review issues.

Some moths ago then, I was stunned to see a thread styled "Spacetime Is a Fairytale" in their cosmology page, and such thread started, no less than by one of their most senior, respected and long term mentor / moderator. It linked this paper, the credentials of which appear to be impecable;

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3837v2.pdf

Firstly, don't think that people with "impeccable credentials" are immune to the effects of the god of woo. There are a number of very well known physicists who have succumbed, including at least one Nobel prize winner (I'm looking at you Josephson). The paper you link to contains the quote you produce as a quote. The original paper they are quoting is here. The credentials of these authors is a lot more tricky to pin down. It's possible that Paschke may be from the university of Munster (in Germany, not Ireland). I'm having less fortune with Kopf.

Strangely, there was barely a comment, though I did notice the use of the word 'spacetime' decline perceptably for some time afterwards. Last time I looked the thread is still there, open, with NO comments.

And in a thread in Alternative Theories here, I also made reference to it, but no one commented on it.

Now, as a non scientist and definitely a non mathematician, I can understand no more of what I read in said paper, than this ..

Spacetime is the fairy tale of a classical manifold. It is irreconcilable with quantum effects in gravity
and most likely, in a strict sense, it does not exist. But to dismiss a mythical being that has inspired
generations just because it does not really exist is foolish. Rather it should be understood together with
the story-tellers through whom and in whom the being exist. ”


But even that, is just .. WOW !

What do the scientific folk 'round here think about it ?

Yes, I know this is a science forum therefore cannot ask you for simple explanations. But I hope to gleen what I can from any comments.

It first glance, it is clear that the authors of the actual paper your quote is from have quite a poor standard of English, making it hard to read. It's also a little heavyweight for me over a lunchtime.
 
...What do the scientific folk 'round here think about it? ...
It's a bit sensationalist. Spacetime isn't a fairytale, it's a useful mathematical abstraction. The fairytales start coming when people confuse spacetime with space and talk about things moving through spacetime when they don't. You can best understand this with an analogy: if I throw a red ball across the room, you can film it, then develop the film and cut it up into individual frames, then stack them up to form a block. This emulates spacetime. There's a red streak in the block which emulates the worldline of the ball. The ball isn't moving through spacetime, because the spacetime is giving you a picture of the ball at all times.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention by the way.
 
Given that the picture of space and time in this paper is even farther from what Farsight just said than standard spacetime theory, I suspect that you have provided him with another source to misquote in his attempt to advertise himself and his products.
 
I used to read a lot over at a site called Physicsforums. They are extremely intolerant of any kind of woo, alternative science, or even any discussion on non-peered review issues.

Some moths ago then, I was stunned to see a thread styled "Spacetime Is a Fairytale" in their cosmology page, and such thread started, no less than by one of their most senior, respected and long term mentor / moderator. It linked this paper, the credentials of which appear to be impecable;

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3837v2.pdf

Strangely, there was barely a comment, though I did notice the use of the word 'spacetime' decline perceptably for some time afterwards. Last time I looked the thread is still there, open, with NO comments.

And in a thread in Alternative Theories here, I also made reference to it, but no one commented on it.

Now, as a non scientist and definitely a non mathematician, I can understand no more of what I read in said paper, than this ..

Spacetime is the fairy tale of a classical manifold. It is irreconcilable with quantum effects in gravity
and most likely, in a strict sense, it does not exist. But to dismiss a mythical being that has inspired
generations just because it does not really exist is foolish. Rather it should be understood together with
the story-tellers through whom and in whom the being exist. ”


But even that, is just .. WOW !

What do the scientific folk 'round here think about it ?

Yes, I know this is a science forum therefore cannot ask you for simple explanations. But I hope to gleen what I can from any comments.

The first line of the abstract introduction is "ShapeDynamics is a metric theory of pure gravity, equivalent to General Relativity, but formulated as a gauge theory of spatial diffeomporphisms and local spatial conformal transformations." So the initial claim is this theoretical model is a different way to write down GR and being equivalent to GR it makes the same theoretical predictions with respect to analysis of natural phenomena. During review consensus should follow whether this claim is true or not true. The following quote is opinion based on the authors belief there is no physical evidence for the existence of spacetime geometry and that equivalent models can be interpreted the same way.

"Spacetime is the fairy tale of a classical manifold. It is irreconcilable with quantum effects in gravity
and most likely, in a strict sense, it does not exist. But to dismiss a mythical being that has inspired
generations just because it does not really exist is foolish. Rather it should be understood together with
the story-tellers through whom and in whom the being exist."

This is another way to write down GR. Teleparallelism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleparallelism#Teleparallel_spacetimes

I linked this to show that different ways to write down GR already exist. I first heard of this model when Kip Thorne mentioned he prefers this model when working with gravitational radiation in his book Black Holes and Time Warps.
 
Spacetime is the fairy tale of a classical manifold. It is irreconcilable with quantum effects in gravity and most likely, in a strict sense, it does not exist. But to dismiss a mythical being that has inspired generations just because it does not really exist is foolish. Rather it should be understood together with the story-tellers through whom and in whom the being exist. ”

But even that, is just .. WOW !
This is a philosophy of science issue, and any authors with anti-realist inclinations could additionally oppose a variety of physics constructs as having literal ontological counterparts. At the opposite pole is the across-the-board scientific realist, and varieties of views in-between, as well as those who dismiss the whole realism / antirealism dichotomy as meaningless. (Past example: "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. ...It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature." --Niels Bohr, spoken at the Como conference, 1927)

Physics World released a couple of articles some years ago that might make a nice, quick introduction for you to these philosophical positions held / not held by physicists, but I can only excerpt a portion here. [Note that today most philosophers of science have backgrounds in science themselves. Indeed, retired / practicing scientists will even take up the role at times, as illustrated in the variety of quotes further down; such as Bridgman / Medawar proclaiming that a standardized 'scientific method' is a myth]:

When "Physics World" ran a special poll last year to find out how physicists think philosophically, more than 500 readers replied. Here are the results.

Robert P. Crease: Everybody, including scientists, makes seat-of-the-pants practical judgements about what's real and what's not. The common-sense assumptions underlying these judgements can be unrecognized, inconsistent and even untenable; they can be home-grown, inherited and absorbed from others. But when someone is engaged in an activity as complex as science, it is almost impossible to avoid making such practical judgements. No matter how implicit and readily revised these judgements may be, they are based on preconceptions of what the world consists of and what the world's most important distinctions and categories are - in other words of how it all hangs together.

Professional philosophers analyse these preconceptions and up the ante on them. They formally rework the assumptions into consistent, fully articulated and intellectually supportable positions. They then give them names, such as realist, antirealist, critical realist, constructivist, hermeneutical realist, and so on. To qualify as a philosophical position, it has to be advanced in clear words, articulated in appropriate detail and depth, and be defensible against criticism when scrutinized in a philosophical peer review.

Why philosophy shouldn't be avoided

I've often heard scientists call philosophical attention to their field irrelevant at best, and confusing and destructive at worst. Indeed, many scientists advise that philosophy should be avoided altogether. Steven Weinberg, for example, named a chapter in his book "Dreams of a Final Theory" "Against the philosophers". Murray Gell-Mann, meanwhile, has remarked that philosophy "muddies the waters and obscures [the theoretical physicist's] principal task, which is to find a coherent structure that works". He then added that having a philosophical bias may cause a physicist "to reject a good idea".

But such reactions misconstrue philosophy, however much they may have been triggered by the excesses of philosophers themselves. Scientists cannot avoid making judgements about what is real and what is not, and philosophical analysis seeks to expose and clarify this process.

I've also heard that science inclines its practitioners towards a specific philosophical position. Scientists, it is said, tend towards realism because it makes them better scientists - a conviction that has also influenced philosophers. When Ian Hacking, for example, once asked a physics colleague what he was doing, the physicist replied that he was "spraying photons". Impressed, Hacking wrote: "From that day forth I've been a scientific realist. As far as I'm concerned, if you can spray them, then they are real."

In his book "Faith, Science and Understanding", physicist-turned-Anglican-priest John Polkinghorne remarked that "virtually all scientists" - including himself - adhere to a brand of realism known as critical realism. A reviewer in "Physics World", who doubted Polkinghorne's bold assertion, later suggested that I poll readers, hoping to elicit information to settle the issue. I therefore carried out a survey in which I listed a number of different items and asked readers to say whether or not they considered them to be real things, or whether they were unsure ("Physics World" October 2001 p18). Having received more than 500 replies, the statistics do indeed cast doubt on Polkinghorne's claim....


Rest of password-required article can be found at: http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/2002/apr/04/this-is-your-philosophy

Or maybe: http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/2002/apr/04/this-is-your-philosophy

- - - - - - - - - - -

Percy Bridgman: "It seems to me that there is a good deal of ballyhoo about scientific method. I venture to think that the people who talk most about it are the people who do least about it. Scientific method is what working scientists do, not what other people or even they themselves may say about it. No working scientist, when he plans an experiment in the laboratory, asks himself whether he is being properly scientific, nor is he interested in whatever method he may be using as method. When the scientist ventures to criticize the work of his fellow scientist, as is not uncommon, he does not base his criticism on such glittering generalities as failure to follow the 'scientific method,' but his criticism is specific, based on some feature characteristic of the particular situation. The working scientist is always too much concerned with getting down to brass tacks to be willing to spend his time on generalities. . . . . What appears to [the working scientist] as the essence of the situation is that he is not consciously following any prescribed course of action, but feels complete freedom to utilize any method or device whatever which in the particular situation before him seems likely to yield the correct answer. In his attack on his specific problem he suffers no inhibitions of precedent or authority, but is completely free to adopt any course that his ingenuity is capable of suggesting to him. No one standing on the outside can predict what the individual scientist will do or what method he will follow. In short, science is what scientists do, and there are as many scientific methods as there are individual scientists." (Reflections of a Physicist)

Peter Medawar: "Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be, and he will adopt an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed, because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare. ... If the purpose of scientific methodology is to prescribe or expound a system of enquiry or even a code of practice for scientific behavior, then scientists seem to be able to get on very well without it. Most scientists receive no tuition in scientific method, but those who have been instructed perform no better as scientists than those who have not. Of what other branch of learning can it be said that it gives its proficients no advantage; that it need not be taught or, if taught, need not be learned?" (Induction and Intuition in Scientific Thought)

Ernst Mach: "The goal which it [physical science] has set itself is the simplest and most economical abstract expression of facts. When the human mind, with its limited powers, attempts to mirror in itself the rich life of the world, of which it itself is only a small part, and which it can never hope to exhaust, it has every reason for proceeding economically. In reality, the law always contains less than the fact itself, because it does not reproduce the fact as a whole but only in that aspect of it which is important for us, the rest being intentionally or from necessity omitted. In mentally separating a body from the changeable environment in which it moves, what we really do is to extricate a group of sensations on which our thoughts are fastened and which is of relatively greater stability than the others, from the stream of all our sensations. Suppose we were to attribute to nature the property of producing like effects in like circumstances; just these like circumstances we should not know how to find. Nature exists once only. Our schematic mental imitation alone produces like events." (The Economical Nature Of Physical Inquiry)

Henry J. Folse: "However, while Kuhn and like minded critics of the empiricist consensus effectively overthrew the consensus view that had dominated philosophy of science from the 1930's to the 60's, Kuhn's own alternative was never crowned its successor within philosophy of science. It is now generally recognized by most philosophers to be inadequate as an account of many of the features of science to which Kuhn himself called attention. Thus in the last forty years philosophy of science has gone from a field formerly dominated by a single 'received view' to an arena of volatile debate with no single dominant contender for a new acceptable model of scientific knowledge. This fact has made it one of the most lively and pivotal domains of philosophy, for the issues now occupying center stage in philosophy of science touch upon basic questions of epistemology, metaphysics, and axiology. Through these debates the nature of philosophy of science has changed tremendously from the attempt to build a formal model of an idealized perfect science quite apart from any historical account of what scientists really do, to the attempt to build a philosophically acceptable view of science based upon a detailed historical examination of the actual patterns of reasoning employed in concrete episodes in the advance of science. En route these discussions have called into question such basic presuppositions as the belief that there is some pattern of reasoning which justifies acceptance of scientific theories, that there is some methodology called 'the scientific method,' that science has anything at all to say about the nature of reality, and that science can be examined apart from the social, cultural context in which it actually evolves. Because of the central role that science plays in contemporary culture, these upheavals in philosophy of science have reverberated in a variety of disciplines including history, political science, sociology, art, religious studies, and other disciplines too numerous to name." (Introduction To Philosophy Of Science)
 
It's a bit sensationalist. Spacetime isn't a fairytale, it's a useful mathematical abstraction. The fairytales start coming when people confuse spacetime with space and talk about things moving through spacetime when they don't. You can best understand this with an analogy: if I throw a red ball across the room, you can film it, then develop the film and cut it up into individual frames, then stack them up to form a block. This emulates spacetime. There's a red streak in the block which emulates the worldline of the ball. The ball isn't moving through spacetime, because the spacetime is giving you a picture of the ball at all times.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention by the way.

Clueless nonsense. THROWING THE BALL means it's NOT FOLLOWING the natural path. There's a FORCE acting on it. So you even think Newton's first law of motion is bogus?

This is the natural radial path of a stone, initially at rest, falling from r_shell recorded by the Schwarzschild remote bookkeeper.

dr/dt_bkkpr = -(1-2M/r)(2M/r)^1/2 [freefall natural path of stone]

This is the radial path of the stone THROWN from r_shell recorded by the remote bkkpr.

dr/dt_bkkpr = -(1-2M/r)[1-y^-2(1-2M/r)]^1/2 [path after force acting on the stone].

y=gamma

No you can't visualize spacetime curvature using your analogy.
 
Do excuse bruce's shouting, Lakon. If you like you can sit the ball on the table and film it. Then when you develop the film and cut it up into individual frames and stack them into a block, you have a vertical red streak in the block which emulates the ball's worldine in spacetime. It's important to note however that the ball isn't moving through spacetime, because spacetime is giving you a picture of the ball at all times. In this case the ball isn't moving through space either.
 
Do excuse Farsight Lakon, he doesn't know any actual relativity and can only argue by analogies which he's either made up himself without any actual physics experience or knowledge or he's butchered from layperson explanations he thinks he understands. It seems that the people who understand the mathematics the least are often the most vocal in their complaing about how they assume scientists view the relationships between maths and physics.
 
Hi AlphaNumeric. Seriously, I for one and, I trust, Lakon for another, would be very interested to see you point out exactly what is wrong with Farsight's above analogy in the context. Thanks.
 
Hi AlphaNumeric. Seriously, I for one and, I trust, Lakon for another, would be very interested to see you point out exactly what is wrong with Farsight's above analogy in the context. Thanks.

I already explained why his analogy is nonsense. Exactly. The context is the ball was thrown rather than following its natural path through curved spacetime.
 
Did you respond to his "on the table not falling at all" response to your post?

The subject is what he said first not last. The one about the camera recording the path of the THROWN ball claiming by analogy that it records the balls natural path through curved spacetime. The ball isn't following the natural path because it was THROWN. Refer to Newton's first law of motion. Farsight is the same person who thinks spacetime curvature keeps the ball from falling down in his 'ball in the room analogy'.

In case you missed it

This is the natural radial path of a stone, initially at rest, falling from r_shell recorded by the Schwarzschild remote bookkeeper.

dr/dt_bkkpr = -(1-2M/r)(2M/r)^1/2 [freefall natural path of stone]

This is the radial path of the stone THROWN from r_shell recorded by the remote bkkpr.

dr/dt_bkkpr = -(1-2M/r)[1-y^-2(1-2M/r)]^1/2 [path after force acting on the stone].

y=gamma

No you can't visualize spacetime curvature using your analogy.
 
The subject is what he said first not last. The one about the camera recording the path of the THROWN ball claiming by analogy that it records the balls natural path through curved spacetime. The ball isn't following the natural path because it was THROWN. Refer to Newton's first law of motion.

I asked AlphaNumeric to point out exactly what was wrong with Farsight's above analogy "in context"...which is why I said "above", because the "context" now included Farsight's further response to your post treating the "moving" case but not the "static" case as he explained further to clarify his analogy in answer to your earlier response.

Have you an answer to that later clarification of what his analogy was meant to convey about "space-time" in the context which covers both cases?
 
I asked AlphaNumeric to point out exactly what was wrong with Farsight's above analogy "in context"...which is why I said "above", because the "context" now included Farsight's further response to your post treating the "moving" case but not the "static" case as he explained further to clarify his analogy in answer to your earlier response.

Have you an answer to that later clarification of what his analogy was meant to convey about "space-time" in the context which covers both cases?

Back to the ignore list for you. Your intellectual dishonesty pisses me off. Your troll is pathetic ignorant. That's why your spending so much membership time on the ban list.
 
I used to read a lot over at a site called Physicsforums. They are extremely intolerant of any kind of woo, alternative science, or even any discussion on non-peered review issues.

Some moths ago then, I was stunned to see a thread styled "Spacetime Is a Fairytale" in their cosmology page, and such thread started, no less than by one of their most senior, respected and long term mentor / moderator. It linked this paper, the credentials of which appear to be impecable;

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3837v2.pdf

Strangely, there was barely a comment, though I did notice the use of the word 'spacetime' decline perceptably for some time afterwards. Last time I looked the thread is still there, open, with NO comments.

And in a thread in Alternative Theories here, I also made reference to it, but no one commented on it.

Now, as a non scientist and definitely a non mathematician, I can understand no more of what I read in said paper, than this ..

Spacetime is the fairy tale of a classical manifold. It is irreconcilable with quantum effects in gravity
and most likely, in a strict sense, it does not exist. But to dismiss a mythical being that has inspired
generations just because it does not really exist is foolish. Rather it should be understood together with
the story-tellers through whom and in whom the being exist. ”


But even that, is just .. WOW !

What do the scientific folk 'round here think about it ?

Yes, I know this is a science forum therefore cannot ask you for simple explanations. But I hope to gleen what I can from any comments.

Lakon
Sorry about any part I had with disrupting your thread. No further comment anyway.
 
No problem at all Bruce. Though a lot here is beyond my scientific abilities, I am nonetheless appreciative of the replies - one and all.

What's more incomprehensible though, is the degree of acrimony that quickly flairs up. That's rather sad and bewildering.
 
The subject is what he said first not last. The one about the camera recording the path of the THROWN ball claiming by analogy that it records the balls natural path through curved spacetime. The ball isn't following the natural path because it was THROWN. Refer to Newton's first law of motion. Farsight is the same person who thinks spacetime curvature keeps the ball from falling down in his 'ball in the room analogy'.

In case you missed it

This is the natural radial path of a stone, initially at rest, falling from r_shell recorded by the Schwarzschild remote bookkeeper.

dr/dt_bkkpr = -(1-2M/r)(2M/r)^1/2 [freefall natural path of stone]

This is the radial path of the stone THROWN from r_shell recorded by the remote bkkpr.

dr/dt_bkkpr = -(1-2M/r)[1-y^-2(1-2M/r)]^1/2 [path after force acting on the stone].

y=gamma

No you can't visualize spacetime curvature using your analogy.

What IS a good analogy by which to visualize spacetime ? (The 'ball in trampoline' leaves a lot to be desired, IMO, and causes more confusion).
 
No problem at all Bruce. Though a lot here is beyond my scientific abilities, I am nonetheless appreciative of the replies - one and all.

What's more incomprehensible though, is the degree of acrimony that quickly flairs up. That's rather sad and bewildering.

Many of the comments are designed to cause conflict and reopen old wounds. The language of science is very precise and gets abused a lot which doesn't help. It's the internet. Thanks for linking the paper and your interest is very refreshing to me.
 
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