South Korean Hostages are Presbyterians

[Woody]

The headlines continue to tell us about christians being used as pawns to negotiate the release of taliban prisoners. After googling the headlines for a while, I found they are a humanitarian team from a presbyterian church in South Korea. Their pastor has already been killed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan


http://www.christiantoday.com/artic...als.for.urgent.prayers.for.hostages/12060.htm

The Presbyterian Church in the Republic of Korea (PROK) has issued an urgent prayer appeal to the global Christian community for the remaining 21 Korean hostages held by Taliban militants in Afghanistan after the deaths of two male hostages.

The remaining 21 hostages, mainly women, are enduring their 16th day of captivity after Taliban gunmen hijacked their bus in the insurgency-prone Ghazni province on July 19. The group is part of the Presbyterian Saemmul Community Church in Bundang, just south of the South Korean capital Seoul, and was in the country to provide free medical services to poor Afghan citizens.

They do need christian prayer. They went to Afghanistan to supply humanitarian support for that war-torn country and now they are prisoners. They were not breaking any of the laws there in Afganistan, or any of the religious customs. They were simply there to help.

They were warned by the travel authorities before they went, but they said their calling as a church body requires them to go in harm's way. This team has served in several countries that needed their help. Now they need help. Please pray for them, those that believe in God.

Thank you.

Also please remember that more christians are dieing in service NOW than has ever occured in the history of the church. This is the word I am getting from the missionary authorities.

 

[SnakeLord]

This team has served in several countries that needed their help. Now they need help. Please pray for them, those that believe in God.

Not to upset anyone but I thought it perhaps worth asking if god can't take care of his own - especially as they are apparently doing his work?

No malice intended, it's an honest question.

 

[Woody]

Yes, in the christian line of thinking, God can take care of His own and He knows what is happening. Sometimes christians die in service, but that is not the end of the story: those that commited the atrocities have converted to christianity in several instances.

On the otherhand, God also proves Himself through prayer. It is up to the faithful to accept either outcome. With the right attitude in prayer, it can make a difference, or at least we believe we see evidence of it. Hence that is why I make the petition.

Just an honest answer.

 

[spidergoat]

The martyrdom of Christians converted many Romans to Christianity. I guess Islam knows a thing or two about martyrdom, too. Ideally, the Muslims and the Christians could all martyr each other, and that would be the end of this nonsense.

 

[S.A.M.]

The martyrdom of Christians converted many Romans to Christianity. I guess Islam knows a thing or two about martyrdom, too. Ideally, the Muslims and the Christians could all martyr each other, and that would be the end of this nonsense.

Surprisingly so do atheists. The first "muslim" martyrs in Lebanon were marxist atheists. So are the anti-religious LTTEs who haven't run out of martyrs since the 1970s and at any one time have 400 plus men/women on their suicide cadre.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yes, in the christian line of thinking, God can take care of His own and He knows what is happening.

*************
M*W: "In the christian line of thinking," people depend on their god to take care of them, so they don't bother to take care of themselves or find out what is happening.

Sometimes christians die in service, but that is not the end of the story: those that commited the atrocities have converted to christianity in several instances.

************
M*W: "Several instances," does not make a statistically significant number to really matter. Dead is dead. I'm not going to hold my breath while the Islamic terrorists convert to christianity (and I am not referring here to all Muslim people).

On the otherhand, God also proves Himself through prayer.

*************
M*W: Does this include the prayers of Muslims? What if Allah hears their prayers louder and more sincere than christian prayers?

It is up to the faithful to accept either outcome.

*************
M*W: Does this include faithful Muslims and other faithful who may not pray the same prayers as christians? I would think that prayer to a god would be generic, just as meditating to oneself.

With the right attitude in prayer, it can make a difference, or at least we believe we see evidence of it.

*************
M*W: So, are you saying that some may pray the wrong way? What is a wrong way to pray? If there were a god, would he be upset if someone mispronounced a word, or lost his train of thought, or prayed after committing a sin?

Someone told me a long time ago, when I was a christian, that "god doesn't hear my prayers, because he never answers them. Am I praying the wrong way?" And, as a christian, I told her that there was no wrong way to pray, and that god was answering her prayers, but she just wasn't listening. What I told her didn't really mean anything at all. I was just bullshitting her with any old answer that came to mind. She called me a few days later and told me of her "miracle" answer from god! I am sure she found the answer herself but felt the need to give her god credit for it. All I did was give her a little bit of positive reinforcement so she could believe in herself.

Prayer takes many forms. Atheists don't pray to a god, but I believe many of us dwell on what we need to do in certain situations, and we figure it out in our own minds. Truthfully, that's as far as any "prayer" really goes at all. Call it what you want, but prayer, meditation, and wishful thinking all begin in the mind and end-up wherever they allow that thought to take them. So, now once again, and this time not as a christian, I will say that there is no wrong way to pray.

However, I am anxious to know what your definition is of having "the right attitude in prayer, and how you feel it makes a difference." Also, I'm sure many of us would like to know what you meant when you said having the right attitude in prayer that, "we believe we see evidence of it." Could you please explain your comment or list examples.

Thanks.

 

[Gondolin]

*************
M*W: "In the christian line of thinking," people depend on their god to take care of them, so they don't bother to take care of themselves or find out what is happening.

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your dear heavenly Parent feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? (Mt. 6: 26-27)

Some people take that a little too literally.

 

[SnakeLord]

God also proves Himself through prayer. It is up to the faithful to accept either outcome

Not really, no.

Matthew 21:22
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Given these statements, the effects of prayer would be plainly obvious.

Yes, in the christian line of thinking, God can take care of His own and He knows what is happening.

If he wanted to do anything to stop it he could. If this is where you respond that he wont interfere in human affairs then there was no point you asking anyone to pray.

 

[Woody]

The martyrdom of Christians converted many Romans to Christianity. I guess Islam knows a thing or two about martyrdom, too. Ideally, the Muslims and the Christians could all martyr each other, and that would be the end of this nonsense.

feel the love.

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: "In the christian line of thinking," people depend on their god to take care of them, so they don't bother to take care of themselves or find out what is happening.

W: As a christian I don't expect God to do for me what I can do for myself. I try to treat my children the same way so they will learn responsibility.


************
M*W: "Several instances," does not make a statistically significant number to really matter. Dead is dead. I'm not going to hold my breath while the Islamic terrorists convert to christianity (and I am not referring here to all Muslim people).

W: The point is, as a christian, dead is not dead. We believe in an afterlife.


*************
M*W: Does this include the prayers of Muslims? What if Allah hears their prayers louder and more sincere than christian prayers?

WW: no. As a christian we believe Jesus is God, and He only hears His own children and those that seek repentence. Jesus doesn't listen to prayers to the moon god of Islam, according to what christians believe.


*************
M*W: Does this include faithful Muslims and other faithful who may not pray the same prayers as christians? I would think that prayer to a god would be generic, just as meditating to oneself.

no, they do not pray the same prayers.


*************
M*W: So, are you saying that some may pray the wrong way? What is a wrong way to pray? If there were a god, would he be upset if someone mispronounced a word, or lost his train of thought, or prayed after committing a sin?

W: As a christian we believe God only hears His own children and those that seek repentence.

MW: Someone told me a long time ago, when I was a christian, that "god doesn't hear my prayers, because he never answers them. Am I praying the wrong way?" And, as a christian, I told her that there was no wrong way to pray, and that god was answering her prayers, but she just wasn't listening. What I told her didn't really mean anything at all. I was just bullshitting her with any old answer that came to mind. She called me a few days later and told me of her "miracle" answer from god! I am sure she found the answer herself but felt the need to give her god credit for it. All I did was give her a little bit of positive reinforcement so she could believe in herself.


W: no surprise here. I've heard of an atheist that lead a person to Christ just by quoting some verses out of a bible.

MW: Prayer takes many forms. Atheists don't pray to a god, but I believe many of us dwell on what we need to do in certain situations, and we figure it out in our own minds. Truthfully, that's as far as any "prayer" really goes at all. Call it what you want, but prayer, meditation, and wishful thinking all begin in the mind and end-up wherever they allow that thought to take them. So, now once again, and this time not as a christian, I will say that there is no wrong way to pray.

W: As a christian I do not believe that way.

MW: However, I am anxious to know what your definition is of having "the right attitude in prayer, and how you feel it makes a difference." Also, I'm sure many of us would like to know what you meant when you said having the right attitude in prayer that, "we believe we see evidence of it." Could you please explain your comment or list examples.

Thanks.

W: The "right attitude" is accepting all outcomes by trusting in the Lord as a good Father. The book of Job is a good example.

 

[Woody]

Not really, no.

Matthew 21:22
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

I don't always believe in what I ask for. I give the Lord lattitude to choose what is best for me.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

This is true, and it's a chicken and egg argument. Which came first, the asking or the believing? Not that it counters your point.

Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Strong verses as well, and it is heard by the Lord. It is called prayer in the spirit whereby we ask in the spirit and it is received. We (fellowbelievers) can not agree unless it is in the spirit.

Given these statements, the effects of prayer would be plainly obvious.

It is obvious to a christian. We don't know what is best, but our Father in heaven does. Therefore we trust Him to deliver the right answer, even as Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemene:

Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

SL: If he wanted to do anything to stop it he could. If this is where you respond that he wont interfere in human affairs then there was no point you asking anyone to pray.

W: Sometimes He doesn't do things unless He is asked first. Other times His divine will is greater than my request, as Jesus just showed us. And sometimes the things we ask for are not good for us -- but the Lord knows what is best.

 

[Kadark]

WW: no. As a christian we believe Jesus is God, and He only hears His own children and those that seek repentence. Jesus doesn't listen to prayers to the moon god of Islam, according to what christians believe.

Bullshit. Allah a "moon God"? Give me a break. From the Qur'an itself.

"Bow not yourselves to the sun and moon, but bow yourselves to God who created them, if Him you serve."

41:37 Qur'an

Besides, the moon god in pagan times was not "Allah". It was "illa", and if you know how to speak/read Arabic, the pronunciation/spelling looks completely different.

Excellent website which disproves the whole "Allah/moon God" myth: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

Tons of information.

 

[Woody]

Bullshit. Allah a "moon God"? Give me a break. From the Qur'an itself.

"Bow not yourselves to the sun and moon, but bow yourselves to God who created them, if Him you serve."

41:37 Qur'an

Besides, the moon god in pagan times was not "Allah". It was "illa", and if you know how to speak/read Arabic, the pronunciation/spelling looks completely different.

Excellent website which disproves the whole "Allah/moon God" myth: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

Tons of information.

whutever... Christians believe Jesus is God, Muslims do not. Christians believe Jesus hears their prayers. Muslims do not.

I hope this explains the difference between Christians and Muslims, and may you receive a break just like you asked for. :shrug:

 

[Kadark]

whutever... Christians believe Jesus is God, Muslims do not. Christians believe Jesus hears their prayers. Muslims do not.

I agree.

I hope this explains the difference between Christians and Muslims,

They are pretty similar religions, although the view on Jesus is the main difference. Christians believe Jesus is God, whereas Muslims believe he was a Prophet.

 

[Michael]

The martyrdom of Christians converted many Romans to Christianity. I guess Islam knows a thing or two about martyrdom, too. Ideally, the Muslims and the Christians could all martyr each other, and that would be the end of this nonsense.

I once read about a governor of Alexandra around the year 100 was inundated with hundreds of Christians demanding to be Martyred. He told them no.

 

[Michael]

I really do feel sorry for these Koreans. Many Korean people live sheltered lives and have no clue about the real world. I`m sure their Preacher was trying to do a good thing but really they should have never entered a Muslim country. Why didn:t they go to Africa where their help would have been appreciated.

 

[Michael]

Bullshit. Allah a "moon God"? Give me a break. From the Qur'an itself.

There is some connection
The moon was worshipped all over the middle east.
The name Allah was the name of a moon God
The moon is the highest symbol on all Muslim places of worship.
The Arabs worshipped an Allah moon God and Mohammad, for a time, accepted this moon Gods daughters into the Muslim faith.

Everything has to start somewhere .... and I think there is a connection.

 

[Kadark]

There is some connection
The moon was worshipped all over the middle east.
The name Allah was the name of a moon God
The moon is the highest symbol on all Muslim places of worship.
The Arabs worshipped an Allah moon God and Mohammad, for a time, accepted this moon Gods daughters into the Muslim faith.

Everything has to start somewhere .... and I think there is a connection.

Man, don't piss me off. Seriously, read this...

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...h/moongod.html

Allah is not the name as the moon god. In fact, whether or not that particular statue was even a MOON god or not is still debateable. As I said, the name was believed to be "illa", not "Allah".

This will answer all your questions on the moon's use in Islam. NOT because of a pagan god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHcwJ7fsT_I

 

[Michael]

Kadark,

I’m not saying you worship a moon God. Or that Muslims believe in a moon God. I’m saying that back in history moon Gods were very much a part of Middle Eastern religions. You can think of it as something that was very much in vogue before Mohammad’s time and something that had to be contended with when adapting a new faith. To completely disregard all evidence for the widespread practice of moon God worship in the ME is not being intellectually honest IMO. Again, I’m not suggesting that the God you worship is a moon God only that its reasonable to conclude some connection with preexisting moon God theology. There is also Zoroastrian, Christian, Judaism, Arab polytheism and yes even Hinduism interwoven into what you call Islam. Just read about these other religions and you will find the connections.

And its OK even for you as a Muslim because all Reformers (to cover their arses) usually say something along the lines of I’m here to correct the past inconsistencies bla bla bla and so here’s how the new fits with the old. Does this sound a little　bit familiar? Is there anything like this in your faith? I’d be shocked if you said no. Given that the Qur`an is about a 70-80% rewrite of the Torah. That much is just academic.

So, you can think of the reformer/new prophet fixed corrections as the connections I am referring to. You religion does say the Ｒｅａｓｏｎ Mohammad was here was to fix stuff right? Well its this "stuff" that I am refering to. (weren`t you ever a little curious about what this "stuff" was and where it came from?)

Anway, to say there are no connections to the past at all would be the same as saying Buddhism is not connected in any way, shape or form to Hinduism. Does that seem right?
OR
Christianity is not connected in any way, shape or form to Gnosism.
OR
Bahai` is not connected to Islam.
OR
The Judaic flood myth is not connected to the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh.

I`m sure if you are being intellectually honost you will agree there are connections. Just rest secure in the age old “I`m here to correct the past mistakes” line and you`ll be right mate

Michael

 

[Kadark]

Kadark,

I’m not saying you worship a moon God. Or that Muslims believe in a moon God. I’m saying that back in history moon Gods were very much a part of Middle Eastern religions.

I am not denying that. This is definitely true.

You can think of it as something that was very much in vogue before Mohammad’s time and something that had to be contended with when adapting a new faith. To completely disregard all evidence for the widespread practice of moon God worship in the ME is not being intellectually honest IMO.

I'm not saying that at all! Of course moon gods/idols were worshipped. Muhammad himself destroyed 360 (I believe) idols in Mecca, and some could easily have been a moon God. However, none were called "Allah". The closest, "illa", and that's a very different pronunciation/spelling in Arabic.

Again, I’m not suggesting that the God you worship is a moon God only that its reasonable to conclude some connection with preexisting moon God theology. There is also Zoroastrian, Christian, Judaism, Arab polytheism and yes even Hinduism interwoven into what you call Islam. Just read about these other religions and you will find the connections.

Ugh...of course there's connections (especially with Judaism and Christianity). If there's connections with any of the other religions mentioned, it must not be of importance. Certainly, where the primary issues are concerned (monotheism, final prophet, etc), these religions disagree vehemently.

And its OK even for you as a Muslim because all Reformers (to cover their arses) usually say something along the lines of I’m here to correct the past inconsistencies bla bla bla and so here’s how the new fits with the old. Does this sound a little　bit familiar? Is there anything like this in your faith? I’d be shocked if you said no. Given that the Qur`an is about a 70-80% rewrite of the Torah. That much is just academic.

How is the Qur'an 70-80% of the Torah? You pulling these numbers out your ass, or do you have a source? Have you even read the Torah?