Souls?

[MarcAC]

The issue of whether souls exist or not is an essential consideration for theism, since if souls do not exist then an afterlife does not exist which is the domain for theism to reward or punish. I.e. without an afterlife who cares whether gods exist or not.

Not for Christianity - hence the mostly non-theist squabbles in the thread. The question of whether or not the soul refers to an immortal entity or simply to "the self" (the neuroscience aspect) is a live issue within Christianity itself. In scripture it is said that the saved will be changed from mortal to immortal - immortal souls don't need any changing. Thus, a soul, for Christians, does not gaurantee an afterlife - salvation does - i.e. the acceptance of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

CEV
I Cor. 15:

[45] The first man was named Adam, and the Scriptures tell us that he was a living person. But Jesus, who may be called the last Adam, is a life-giving spirit. [46] We see that the one with a spiritual body did not come first. He came after the one who had a physical body. [47] The first man was made from the dust of the earth, but the second man came from heaven. [48] Everyone on earth has a body like the body of the one who was made from the dust of the earth. And everyone in heaven has a body like the body of the one who came from heaven. [49] Just as we are like the one who was made out of earth, we will be like the one who came from heaven.

[50] My friends, I want you to know that our bodies of flesh and blood will decay. This means that they cannot share in God's kingdom, which lasts forever. [51] I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed. [52] It will happen suddenly, quicker than the blink of an eye. At the sound of the last trumpet the dead will be raised. We will all be changed, so that we will never die again. [53] Our dead and decaying bodies will be changed into bodies that won't die or decay. [54] The bodies we now have are weak and can die. But they will be changed into bodies that are eternal. Then the Scriptures will come true,...​

The commencing post may apply more to a religion such as Hinduism. It's been entertaing though...

 

[LightEagle]

I still prefer the theories that don't require the belief in the unknowable and for which there is no evidence.

The bold is all I wanted you to admit.

Thank you MarcAC for your most valid comment.

 

[Sarkus]

The bold is all I wanted you to admit.

Why did you want me to admit this?
What do you think this admission is saying to you?

I admit that I have no knowledge of 99.999% of the workings of the Universe - of its origins - of nearly everything - but that does not push me to a belief in something for which there is zero evidence.

 

[Cris]

MarcAC,

Not for Christianity

Really? But I think most Christians would disagree. The overwhelming typical Christian assumes that each individual has a soul, and that this remains fundamental to their belief system. That they may not have quite understood the subtleties of biblical interpretation, especially Revelations, is perhaps a separate issue.

The question of whether or not the soul refers to an immortal entity or simply to "the self" (the neuroscience aspect) is a live issue within Christianity itself.

So you admit it isn’t as clear cut as you want to imply.

The commencing post may apply more to a religion such as Hinduism. It's been entertaing though...

Said with your usual condescending Christian cynicism, but I think essentially incorrect from a majority perspective.

In scripture it is said that the saved will be changed from mortal to immortal - immortal souls don't need any changing.

And how about mortal souls then?

Thus, a soul, for Christians, does not guarantee an afterlife - salvation does –

Fine, whatever – my point was that the existence of an immaterial soul, whether mortal or not, is essential for the credibility of theism, Christianity included. I.e. something that is separate to the physical body that can continue an existence when the physical body dies. How long it survives is another issue.

Within Christianity, re a soul - Each individual has a soul and hence has duality with a physical body for a temporary period. Upon death of the body the soul continues to survive in some form until “judged” and then it continues an eternal existence in some form of paradise, or it is destroyed in the lake of fire. I am unable to discern from the various interpretations I have seen whether the successful soul actually continues in paradise in an immaterial form, or is resurrected into a physical body again and the Earth becomes a heavenly paradise.

Either way – the essence of self in the form of an immaterial soul appears to be essential for the Christian model. Would you agree?

[50] My friends, I want you to know that our bodies of flesh and blood will decay. This means that they cannot share in God's kingdom, which lasts forever. [51] I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed. [52] It will happen suddenly, quicker than the blink of an eye. At the sound of the last trumpet the dead will be raised. We will all be changed, so that we will never die again. [53] Our dead and decaying bodies will be changed into bodies that won't die or decay. [54] The bodies we now have are weak and can die. But they will be changed into bodies that are eternal. Then the Scriptures will come true,...

My primary issue here is to do with the time period involved. People have been dying for thousands of years, presumably some of them will be worthy of the heavenly Earth. In what form are they between the death and decay of their bodies and their resurrection? I’m assuming they exist in a “soul” form. Do you agree?

 

[MarcAC]

Would you agree?

My initial post has best adressed all your questions and concerns (in reply) which are of any significant consequence to the Christian "model" as far as I and this thread are concerend.

But yes, the soul is an essential consideration for theism (and existence) in the sense that: [1] if it just referse to the collective being, "the self" (me, you and our neural patterns) then you need to exist before you can start believing or observing anything ; [2] if it refers to some immortal entity which is beyond detection by scientific instruments like say, any hypothesised entity in physics which is currently beyond detection then its non-existence would mean we need to revisit the point from which its existence was extrapolated; [3] and, of course, if it refers to "the self" as in the former and also the immortal self (as promised in Chrsitianity - see previous post) then we can't hope to "detect" it any time sooner than after we die and God's New Creation (as indicated in Revelations) is established.

Thus, as far as I'm concerned my soul is simply me [1,3] - I have no interests here barring entertainment - evidently not many other Christians do either.
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Oh, and regarding the dead - I don't really care what form they take at the moment even if its an electron orbiting a carbon nculeus that's in my body - if God's Kingdom isn't established before me and you join them I'm sure we'll get to it.

 

[Enmos]

Awesome OP Cris ! Couldn't agree more.