Souls/spirits do not exist - hence religions are irrelevant.

[Cris]

Ulti-truth,

Anyway, what evidence do you have for the non-existence of the soul, apart from a lack of evidence for its existence?

Why do you ask? What evidence do you have for the non-existence of invisible flying green elephants?

A better question would be to ask is why people create imaginative fantasies.

But what do you mean by ‘soul’? Can you precisely define what you mean by this, how it operates, how it exists, where it exists, etc. I am pretty sure you can’t, or if you think you can then I suspect I could find another 1000 people or more who could create other imaginative variations. Given this total variable ‘something’ how then can you expect anyone to prove that it doesn’t exist when you are not even sure what it is in the first place.

But see my long post on page 2 posted 11-20-02 at 11:05 PM.

 

[Cory]

Originally posted by Moore
I know I do but I find it ignorant that you deny it.

Why do you find it ignorant that a peson chooses not to believe in something that there is no solid evidence for?

 

[Moore]

I find it ignorant because what is being implied is not the existance or non existance of souls, but is a systematic dismantling of something much more important than my humble beliefs. The damnation of religion, for one.

 

[Persol]

Originally posted by Moore
I find it ignorant because what is being implied is not the existance or non existance of souls, but is a systematic dismantling of something much more important than my humble beliefs. The damnation of religion, for one.

You should look up the definition of ignorant.

 

[Cris]

Moore,

I find it ignorant because what is being implied is not the existance or non existance of souls, but is a systematic dismantling of something much more important than my humble beliefs. The damnation of religion, for one.

But if souls do not exist then religion is nonsense. In which case religion would be just a mechanism for spreading lies, wouldn't it then be desirable to dismantle something that is so reprehensible?

 

[Cory]

^Yes^

 

[UltiTruth]

Originally posted by Cris
Why do you ask? What evidence do you have for the non-existence of invisible flying green elephants?

Nothing. So I don't claim they don't exist or that anybody who has seen/experienced them are ignorant or idiots; period.

A better question would be to ask is why people create imaginative fantasies.

So again you are saying- "Accept that yours is a fantasy"
Just because YOU do not think there is no soul, should you brand all the millions who think there is, idiots who indulge in fantasies. Or that they are lying?

But what do you mean by ‘soul’? Can you precisely define what you mean by this, how it operates, how it exists, where it exists, etc. I am pretty sure you can’t, or if you think you can then I suspect I could find another 1000 people or more who could create other imaginative variations. Given this total variable ‘something’ how then can you expect anyone to prove that it doesn’t exist when you are not even sure what it is in the first place.

The same applies to extra-terrestrial creatures. But we are too small yet to rule them out. Just keep the options open.

But see my long post on page 2 posted 11-20-02 at 11:05 PM.

Sure, I love your posts.

 

[Cris]

Ulti,

Why do you ask? What evidence do you have for the non-existence of invisible flying green elephants?

Nothing. So I don't claim they don't exist or that anybody who has seen/experienced them are ignorant or idiots; period.

So you believe it is possible that IFGEs might exist then? What is your basis for concluding that such elephants are possible?

The issue is one of credibility. IFGEs do not exist; they are just a figment of my imagination. The same can be said about souls and spirits, they are no more than the figments of human imagination.

As has been shown earlier, the concept of souls/spirits was based on the primitive observation that breath is present in living people and is absent when they are dead and hence breath must have special supernatural properties. This conclusion is based on ignorance. While we know more about human physiology the concept of souls/spirits persists and has evolved into something even less observable. It remains a fantasy of human imagination.

My earlier long post shows that there is no reason for a soul to exist, nowhere where it can exist, no way for it to interact with the physical world, and no indication that it could or might exist. It is a primitive concept that was developed in primitive times by ignorant people and is perpetuated today by more ignorant people who believe this idiotic idea could or might be true.

You can easily prove me wrong by showing even the slightest evidence that a soul exists, after all there are some 6 billion people on the planet and all are meant to have souls right? And of course countless millions have died all of whom are meant to have souls that are now floating around somewhere, right? So how difficult could it be to show that just 1 soul exists?

The concept isn’t credible. Wake up and move on. Souls/spirits do not exist.

So again you are saying- "Accept that yours is a fantasy"
Just because YOU do not think there is no soul, should you brand all the millions who think there is, idiots who indulge in fantasies. Or that they are lying?

See above. The people are ignorant sheep who do not think for themselves and who want to believe something they have been told by other ignorant sheep who were in turn told by the billions who came before them and who also had zero evidence or reason to show that such things have, could, or might exist.

The same applies to extra-terrestrial creatures. But we are too small yet to rule them out. Just keep the options open.

The analogy doesn’t apply. We know intelligent beings exist on at least one planet. That has set a precedent for the potential for intelligent beings to exist on other planets. The same cannot be said about souls/spirits where there is zero indication that such things can, could, might, or have ever existed.

But more importantly is to consider the progress being made in neuroscience where there is now overwhelming evidence that shows how the brain accounts for thoughts and emotions, areas that have been and are still believed by ignorant people to be the result of souls and spirits.

But see my long post on page 2 posted 11-20-02 at 11:05 PM.

Sure, I love your posts.

Ah ha, welcome to my fan club.

 

[ThaDon]

I'm new here but I just wanted to give my opinion on this and share some of my experiences. Hopefully I don't get too much hate for this but most of you will probably think I’m crazy but I've done astral projection several times and have become conscious in what I'm sure was my soul but I wouldn't expect many people to understand it but please keep an open mind. For those who don't know what that is it's consciously leaving your physical body while your physical body is asleep and it's also known as an out of body experience. Just doing that has been enough evidence for me. The biggest problem with proving that it was real is that it's beyond our physical world and physical science, basically the only way to know you have a soul is to experience it for yourself. Really you can't bring any proof back to the physical that shows that you left your physical body but you sometimes can identify a remote object then go and back later in the physical and verify it which I know has been done in some experiments but is hard for reasons I’m not going to explain now. I had done once when I was projected and I went into my garage then I looked at a 5 digit # that was written on the wall that I hadn't known or paid any attention to before and once I woke up I went and verified it and for me that's proof that this was more then my imagination. There were times where I was conscious in my soul and physical body at the same time but I always felt linked to it even though I was completely separate.

Doing this was very hard and took a lot of practice but it was worth it. When I have projected and had an oobe it seems some much more real and natural then the physical does but I don't see how physical science could really explain this. When I have done it all of my senses were there and they were stronger, I can walk, fly sometimes, move through objects, talk to other beings, travel wherever I want, and if I want I can interact with objects just like I would normally but it's not physical objects that your interacting with so where you go is it's own world of life. Basically this is something I have experienced first hand and can't directly prove because it's beyond our physical science and can only really be shown to a person either by dieing or having an oobe. Once I get more advance with it I hope to setup an experiment that proves I can identify remote objects.

My understanding is that our consciousness and thoughts do not originate from our physical brains but everything is processed and stored in our physical brain. I would compare it to a TV with cable the TV being the physical brain and the cable signal being our consciousness and thoughts, the TV (physical brain) processes and displays the cable signal (consciousness & thoughts) but the signal comes from another source and doesn’t originate from the TV but if something bad happens to the TV’s picture tube then the picture gets distorted.

I also wanted to get into why we can't see the soul or the afterlife. I believe that the spirit world is another world or dimension of life all around us but that we can't see or feel. The reason that we can't see or feel it is because it has much higher vibrations then the physical. Physical matter makes up everything here that we know and it’s all made up of atoms, neutrons, and electrons and that's physical matter and that has the lowest level of vibrations. There are many different levels of the afterlife each having their own matter and vibrations different from that of the physical. We can't see the soul or spirit world because the matter that's it's made of is vibrating so much faster then physical matter, with it's matter vibrating that much faster then ours it makes it impossible to see or sense. The closest level of the spirit world is the astral plane which is its own world and has its own vibrations that are faster then the physical. There is a buffer zone between the physical and astral plane which is in-between that is known as the real time zone. This is where mostly what we would think of as ghosts are. The rtz is made up of what is called etheric matter which is invisible and can barely be detected at all. It’s still partially in the physical so it has a small amount of physical weight and is closely related to ectoplasm. There have been experiments which showed at the point of death or right before an astral projection that the physical body loses a small amount of mass and that is the etheric matter leaving the body. I also want to point out that the real time zone is the only place where you can view the physical as its happening because the higher you get into the afterlife the less important time becomes. Other types of matter from higher planes have no weight in the physical and can't be detected.

I just hope people can keep an open mind about the whole astral projection thing because I understand it's very hard to believe that a living person can leave their physical body and some people might not be able to grasp that concept because they are so used to the physical. I was very skeptic and didn't believe it until I first experienced it myself when I accidentally discovered it when researching sleep paralysis and I became interested and started trying it then after a month of practice every day I had my first oobe. That is the only way I can think of for a person to prove to themselves that they can be conscious outside of their physical body. I also want to point out that I believe in god but have no religion and I have my beliefs about the afterlife but I'm very skeptical of them and open minded to other possibilities which I think is important.

 

[Pockets]

Originally posted by ThaDon
I'm new here but I just wanted to give my opinion on this and share some of my experiences. Hopefully I don't get too much hate for this but most of you will probably think I’m crazy but I've done astral projection several times and have become conscious in what I'm sure was my soul but I wouldn't expect many people to understand it but please keep an open mind. For those who don't know what that is it's consciously leaving your physical body while your physical body is asleep and it's also known as an out of body experience. Just doing that has been enough evidence for me. The biggest problem with proving that it was real is that it's beyond our physical world and physical science, basically the only way to know you have a soul is to experience it for yourself. Really you can't bring any proof back to the physical that shows that you left your physical body but you sometimes can identify a remote object then go and back later in the physical and verify it which I know has been done in some experiments but is hard for reasons I’m not going to explain now. I had done once when I was projected and I went into my garage then I looked at a 5 digit # that was written on the wall that I hadn't known or paid any attention to before and once I woke up I went and verified it and for me that's proof that this was more then my imagination. There were times where I was conscious in my soul and physical body at the same time but I always felt linked to it even though I was completely separate.

Doing this was very hard and took a lot of practice but it was worth it. When I have projected and had an oobe it seems some much more real and natural then the physical does but I don't see how physical science could really explain this. When I have done it all of my senses were there and they were stronger, I can walk, fly sometimes, move through objects, talk to other beings, travel wherever I want, and if I want I can interact with objects just like I would normally but it's not physical objects that your interacting with so where you go is it's own world of life. Basically this is something I have experienced first hand and can't directly prove because it's beyond our physical science and can only really be shown to a person either by dieing or having an oobe. Once I get more advance with it I hope to setup an experiment that proves I can identify remote objects.

My understanding is that our consciousness and thoughts do not originate from our physical brains but everything is processed and stored in our physical brain. I would compare it to a TV with cable the TV being the physical brain and the cable signal being our consciousness and thoughts, the TV (physical brain) processes and displays the cable signal (consciousness & thoughts) but the signal comes from another source and doesn’t originate from the TV but if something bad happens to the TV’s picture tube then the picture gets distorted.

I also wanted to get into why we can't see the soul or the afterlife. I believe that the spirit world is another world or dimension of life all around us but that we can't see or feel. The reason that we can't see or feel it is because it has much higher vibrations then the physical. Physical matter makes up everything here that we know and it’s all made up of atoms, neutrons, and electrons and that's physical matter and that has the lowest level of vibrations. There are many different levels of the afterlife each having their own matter and vibrations different from that of the physical. We can't see the soul or spirit world because the matter that's it's made of is vibrating so much faster then physical matter, with it's matter vibrating that much faster then ours it makes it impossible to see or sense. The closest level of the spirit world is the astral plane which is its own world and has its own vibrations that are faster then the physical. There is a buffer zone between the physical and astral plane which is in-between that is known as the real time zone. This is where mostly what we would think of as ghosts are. The rtz is made up of what is called etheric matter which is invisible and can barely be detected at all. It’s still partially in the physical so it has a small amount of physical weight and is closely related to ectoplasm. There have been experiments which showed at the point of death or right before an astral projection that the physical body loses a small amount of mass and that is the etheric matter leaving the body. I also want to point out that the real time zone is the only place where you can view the physical as its happening because the higher you get into the afterlife the less important time becomes. Other types of matter from higher planes have no weight in the physical and can't be detected.

I just hope people can keep an open mind about the whole astral projection thing because I understand it's very hard to believe that a living person can leave their physical body and some people might not be able to grasp that concept because they are so used to the physical. I was very skeptic and didn't believe it until I first experienced it myself when I accidentally discovered it when researching sleep paralysis and I became interested and started trying it then after a month of practice every day I had my first oobe. That is the only way I can think of for a person to prove to themselves that they can be conscious outside of their physical body. I also want to point out that I believe in god but have no religion and I have my beliefs about the afterlife but I'm very skeptical of them and open minded to other possibilities which I think is important.

ThaDon,
After reading your opinion, I confused myself entirely, wrecking what little train of thought that I possess. However, rereading, I've been able to get back on the rails, yet, a few random things popped into my mind and I was wondering if you could clarify them so that I can have a better understanding of your point of view.
You spoke of an out of body experience earlier, and you spoke of speaking to other beings. Could you possibly be a little more specific? Are these beings other people who are able to leave their physical body? Or are they permanently in this, I guess you would call it, spirtual realm?
For me, this raises the question of weither or not these people ever existed in the physical world. Or they did, but have permanently left it (dying). Or maybe I'm just too hopped up on cold medicane to think straight. Either way, could you address these questons to help a confused guy out

 

[ThaDon]

Originally posted by Pockets
ThaDon,
After reading your opinion, I confused myself entirely, wrecking what little train of thought that I possess. However, rereading, I've been able to get back on the rails, yet, a few random things popped into my mind and I was wondering if you could clarify them so that I can have a better understanding of your point of view.
You spoke of an out of body experience earlier, and you spoke of speaking to other beings. Could you possibly be a little more specific? Are these beings other people who are able to leave their physical body? Or are they permanently in this, I guess you would call it, spirtual realm?
For me, this raises the question of weither or not these people ever existed in the physical world. Or they did, but have permanently left it (dying). Or maybe I'm just too hopped up on cold medicane to think straight. Either way, could you address these questons to help a confused guy out

There are many possible things of what the beings I saw were.
1. They could be the spirit of someone who died and is permanently out of their body that could be good or evil.
2. They could be another astral projector.
3. They could come from your subconscious because if you are focused and not daydreaming or imagining things that aren't there when out of your body you will see what is really there. If you are unfocused you may start to see people and things that are created by your mind cause to my understanding in the astral plane anything that you imagine will become real so somtimes it's difficult to tell what is real, this is why it is so important to be very focused and concentrated when doing this. True oobe's are where are not seeing anything created subconscious because if your not carefull and let your mind wonder you can slip into a lucid dream.

I don't think that i've talked to any other astral projectors but I'm planning on trying to meet someone doing it. I have talked to someone that I had seen in my house 2 times when projecting and I think he was dead and permanently out of his body, he seemed kind of stuck and unable to move onto higher places because he was telling me how he felt really bad about the way he was in his life but I was unable to help him because I'm not that experienced with this sort of thing. It's also possible that there are some beings that never existed in the physical but I really have no idea. There was another time when I saw what looked like a demon then I concentrated and tried thinking of him not being there and it was gone so that probably came from my subconscious. I'm really not experienced enough yet to be able to know exactly what it is that i'm seeing.

 

[Cory]

OK here's my question for Cris...

It seems the main argument against there being a soul is the fact that we can't detect it and it's a very good one. I just have 2 ideas that I have read that I would like to express. Now to do this I must get a little "New Age" but it try to bear with it as I just want to make a point and ask some questions. Let me go into some UFOlogy and alien folklore, people tell of some pretty strange things such as Alien species capturing souls and enslaving them or putting their own souls into new bodies, their answer to eternal life(physical). Some even say that when you are having a near death experience that you should not go towards the light because it is a "Reptilian Light Trap" and will be captured and enslaved in the physical again. What I find intersting about this is that the soul is not regarded as a mystical or divine thing but as a tangible, scientific thing. But what would or could it be? Another thing I was reading was the Jain teachings. The Jain religion is from what I understand somehow connected to Hinduism.
"The scientific writings of the Jains, the atom occupies a point in space. This atom can connect with others to form skandha, which then encompasses several or an immeasurable number of spatial points. Our own science teaches the same: two atoms can form a chain of the smallest proportions but there are also molecule chains consisting of many millions of atoms. These atom chains give rise to substance and materials of various densities. The Jain teaching distinguishes six cheif forms of such chains or connections:

*fine-fine: things that are invisible

*fine: things that are still invisible

*fine-coarse: things that are still invisible but perceptible by smell and hearing

*coarse-fine: things that one can see but not feel, such as shadow or darkness

*coarse: things that reunite by themselves, such as water and oil.

*coarse-coarse: things which do not reunite without external help (stone, metal)

The Jains would view the soul as this "fine-fine" matter.

Somebody elses view:

"They already know there's life after death, because they split the atom and discovered quarks. When they discovered the quarks, they got beneath the sum of things. So they step in what is called the spirit (or ethereal) realm. To split the lightest atom is to probe into unseen energy splitting the cell which is the physical part is to probe into unseen life.

When you get lighter than a hydrogen atom you're in a state of nothingness but existence that reveals to them that there is a spiritual world. Lighter than the lightest cell, yet somethings (sum of things), spirits exist."


So my questions are, number 1, do you think that we not yet have the technology to "detect" a "soul" and 2, can these sub-atomic particles (fine-fine material, quarks) be the key into discovering a soul or is that totally assinine babble from the above quoted? I mean even if it's not the answer does it stir up questions and thought as I wouldn't know do to my own lack of knowledge in the field. Also I think we need to confirm that without a doubt we live in a multi-dimensional universe if it has not already been established.
Other then that I pretty much agree with your views and logic.

 

[UltiTruth]

Originally posted by ThaDon
it's consciously leaving your physical body while your physical body is asleep and it's also known as an out of body experience.

I have read quite a few stories on "Para kaya pravesham", supposed to be a science in ancient India. Often the one with the knowledge carefully protects his body, often having somebody guard it and then proceeds to enter another dead body. If his original body is destroyed when he returns, he has to remain in the new body until he gets another one.
Your experience seems to be on similar lines.

 

[dixxyman]

In order to put your statement in perspective i will put it to a test of logic
That which does not exist is not relevant
Souls do not exist
Therefor souls are irrelevant

Your fallacy is that you have not proven the minor premise... that souls do not exist. you have fallen into a logical trap You are using circular reasoning or begging the question.
"You can believe everything honest Abe says; therefore Abe is truthful" (circular reasoning.)
Dixxyman

 

[Cris]

Dixxyman,

Welcome to sciforums

In order to put your statement in perspective i will put it to a test of logic
That which does not exist is not relevant
Souls do not exist
Therefor souls are irrelevant

Your fallacy is that you have not proven the minor premise... that souls do not exist. you have fallen into a logical trap You are using circular reasoning or begging the question.

I think you mean that religion is irrelevant if souls do not exist not that souls are irrelevant. So your claim of a logical fallacy seems to refer to something else.

However as to a proof that souls do not exist then I do not see any problem with that assertion. Humans have little problem realizing that fantasies are not real and do not exist. For example we know that Santa Clause does not exist, but can you prove that he doesn’t exist. Is it even relevant to ask whether Santa exists? But at least most people have a clear idea of what is meant by Santa but that is not true of souls. Ask most people to define ‘soul’ and they will have difficulty.

The term soul is really undefined, or so loosely defined as to be effectively meaningless.

So let’s try again –

1. Something undefined can’t and therefore does not exist since only something defined can be an object of a search for existence.

2. Religions depend on something that is undefined, i.e. something that does not exist.

3. Hence religions are irrelevant.

So for your statement to make sense you should define precisely what you mean by “soul”. Until then you can’t say anything about its existence and by default anything undefined can’t and therefore does not exist.

 

[spookz]

So for your statement to make sense you should define precisely what you mean by “soul”. Until then you can’t say anything about its existence and by default anything undefined can’t and therefore does not exist.

amazing! i am at a loss for words

 

[everneo]

Cris,

Are all existing things are defined..?

which comes first..! existence or definition..?

 

[dixxyman]

I was neither trying to prove or disprove, only to show that the logic is faulty to wit:
if all a is b
and all c is a
then all c is b.
you have attempted to prove that souls do not exist because they don't. that is begging the question. Your logic does not hold up formulaically. That's all. nothing else intended.
The issue was never the proof or disproof just the logic of arriving at your conclusion is not sound.

 

[Cris]

Everno,

Are all existing things are defined..?

I think we can safely say no.

which comes first..! existence or definition..?

More appropriately can you define something that you don’t know exists?

 

[spookz]

dear mother of god! tis a magical world we live in

and by default anything undefined can’t and therefore does not exist.

so undefined means nonexistence.

then...

Are all existing things are defined..? (everneo)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we can safely say no. (chris)

by this you say some existing things are not defined!

so if it is not defined we are in the unenviable position of asserting :
existing things=nonexisting things

yes or no?