SOUL - Who? What? Where?

[S.A.M.]

Cris, I was just fooling around with Godless.

Thanks for the answers though.

Hmm, what about my gut instinct and my spine thrilling chills?

And why does my chest hurt when I'm unhappy?

Or my teeth ache when I hear chalk squeaking?

Just taking advantage that you know the answers!

 

[KennyJC]

I created my brain.

Cris, if your brain dies, it doesn't have to mean that you (consciousness) die. The body and soul just lose connection with each other. Think of the body as a tool, like a hammer, and the soul as the user. Without you, the hammer can do nothing, but you can continue to live and do many things without the hammer.

The soul is a "less material" body inside the material body.



Soul is the one who feels, right? That's why we say to cruel people: "don't you have a soul!?"

I don't think people here will be able to understand that analysis. I would suggest you go post here to meet others at your level of intellect.

 

[RoyLennigan]

The way i see the soul is this (and I've met a few other people who see it the same way):

In our universe everything is made of vibrations. Vibrations such as Electromagetic Radiation, wind, sound, waves of all kinds. There are even those who say the universe itself is a wave. Different kinds waves are generally measured by their frequencies, or how many wavelengths per second.

I see each of these frequencies as a soul--but that they are all part of the same soul, the soul of the universe, which is simply energy. Our minds are affected by certain frequencies, because our minds work on some of these frequencies, usually at the low end of the spectrum such as below 10 Hz. A certain brainwave pattern is associated with sleep, and another with active thinking, and another with active but not thinking (like when you are mesmerized when you drive really hard or play an instrument intensly). Through each of these different frequencies, you act differently--your motivations based on past events are shuffled differently to fuel different motivations.

So not only all living things, but all non-living things as well have a soul. In fact, the structure of this entire universe is what creates the interactions which i call the soul of the universe--an entity which transcends awarness and simply is, without thought.

 

[wsionynw]

Cris, I was just fooling around with Godless.

Thanks for the answers though.

Hmm, what about my gut instinct and my spine thrilling chills?

And why does my chest hurt when I'm unhappy?

Or my teeth ache when I hear chalk squeaking?

Just taking advantage that you know the answers!

LOL! What about the pain in my arse?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

There are a lot of corruptions of language that opens this up in ways I don't intend ....

Children have more soul than adults
This music has soul
He is a happy soul
etc etc

While obviously the word "soul" is a theistic reference to that which bears reference to our identity it also has other definitions that take it outside of such colloquialisms (such as the soul bears witness or receives judgement and is held accountable etc etc)

In other words it is greatly influential, if not integral to our existence, seeming to be subject to some law of result beyond the laws of result that pertain to the body. If the soul exists then obviously it is a uniform substance, and its being is not constituted as that of a christian soul or a jewish soul etc etc (that said - feel free to offer scriptural evidence if you think otherwise)

Generally speaking it becomes impractical to refer to the soul (or even to deny the soul, as in the case of Buddhism) without reference to scriptural authority, since we could very well slip in to identifying the mind with the soul (which is generally how the word "soul" finds its usage in common english).

So the topic of discussion here is the offering of interpretations of scriptural evidence that can establish many of the points raised in the poll or other issues such as the plurality/oneness/duality of the soul.

The poll is missing a 'souls don't exist' option.

 

[Cris]

C7,

Cris, if your brain dies, it doesn't have to mean that you (consciousness) die.

Yes it does. You are entirely dependent on your brain. YOU are your brain.

The body and soul just lose connection with each other.

Nonsense. There is only body.

Think of the body as a tool, like a hammer, and the soul as the user.

Nope. Think of your brain as YOU and the rest of your body are your peripherals.

Without you, the hammer can do nothing, but you can continue to live and do many things without the hammer.

Nope. Without your brain you will cease to exist.

The soul is a "less material" body inside the material body.

The soul is a fantasy concept born of ignorance and does not exist.

Every living breathing organism has a soul. I don't know about plants, but definitely humans and animals. ”

Prove it.

Soul is the one who feels, right?

No. The brain is responsible for feelings, both physical and emotional.

That's why we say to cruel people: "don't you have a soul!?"

Different concept.

 

[Cris]

sam,

Cris, I was just fooling around with Godless.

Difficult to tell with most theists. You are definitely more like an atheist.

Hmm, what about my gut instinct and my spine thrilling chills?

Umm brain?

And why does my chest hurt when I'm unhappy?

Stress - brain related.

Or my teeth ache when I hear chalk squeaking?

Sensory feedback to your brain.

Just taking advantage that you know the answers!

Just insert "brain" as the answer if you think of any further questions.

;-)

 

[Cris]

Crunchy,

The poll is missing a 'souls don't exist' option.

Theists are generally so brainwashed that they have difficulty even comprehending the concept.

 

[baumgarten]

C.S. Lewis said it best: "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body."

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy,

Theists are generally so brainwashed that they have difficulty even comprehending the concept.

It's not the brainwashing that's so bad. I can find a variety of topics that would show every person on earth has some delusion. It's the inability to recognize a delusion for what it is that plagues theists... an immune system which can't identify the infection.

Theism in particular binds itself so tightly to a person's identity that to remove it is effectively a form of identity suicide for most believers.

I know we've discussed this before and a human-relationship and identity substitute that doesn't rely on magical thinking is probably the best option (of course combined with adequate general education).

 

[c7ityi_]

I don't think people here will be able to understand that analysis. I would suggest you go post here to meet others at your level of intellect.

dont say that... i might cry.

Nonsense. There is only body.

How do you know that? Because you've seen everything, because you know everything?

You are like with the universe, you know... the universe must have always existed, otherwise it wouldn't exist now either.

You control your body. So you and your body are not the same. The person is not you either, it's your creation... it's a mask...

take it off... quick!!

Nope. Think of your brain as YOU and the rest of your body are your peripherals.

The brain is a piece of matter which allows the soul/consciousness to express itself in greater variety in the material world.

consciousness flows everywhere, like a river... it passes through things... brains... everything...

The soul is a fantasy concept born of ignorance and does not exist.

That thought is born from arrogance.

No. The brain is responsible for feelings, both physical and emotional.

The brain creates the stuff which causes feelings, but the soul is the one who feels them.

Different concept.

"You've got spirit!"

Maybe that explains what spirit is.

Umm brain?

what makes the brain do what it does?

Just insert "brain" as the answer if you think of any further questions.

yeah, just like theists insert "god" =)

but atheists usually insert "natural law" instead.

Theists are generally so brainwashed that they have difficulty even comprehending the concept.

Atheists are also "brainwashed", just differently. They have difficulty to comprehend things like gods and souls.

 

[Plunkies]

How do you know that? Because you've seen everything, because you know everything?

Do you still believe in Santa?

 

[S.A.M.]

sam,

Difficult to tell with most theists. You are definitely more like an atheist.

I'll take that as a compliment, coming from you.

Just insert "brain" as the answer if you think of any further questions.

*serious question*

I think it is not so simple. WIth our higher consciousness, we exist on other plane that is not corporeal and that is usually dismissed by the Western atheists since spirituality to them conjures up woo-woos. But to ignore that plane of consciousness, which is separate from the physical and the mental, is to ignore a very essential and very crucial aspect of our humanity. You will not find this in the East, where even Buddha who did not believe in God, did recognise the existence of a higher plane of consciousness, the duality of mind which causes distress and which needs to be regulated and appeased for detachment and relief. It is possibly oe reason why atheism is so depressing for those in the West, because ignoring that part of the consciousness does not relieve the distress from it.

 

[Cris]

C7,

“ Originally Posted by Cris
Nonsense. There is only body. ”

How do you know that? Because you've seen everything, because you know everything?

Because now we know about the complexity of the brain the soul concept ceases to have any credibility. It is not something we need to look for it is simply a redundant concept. Duality was originally devised as a way to explain personality, emotions, feelings, thoughts, memories, etc, because our ancestors had total ignorance of the possibilities of neural networks, electricity, and the immensely complex world of micro biology. Now that we have significant insights into this new world we no longer need the fantasy ideas of souls.

You are like with the universe, you know... the universe must have always existed, otherwise it wouldn't exist now either.

No, I am nothing like the universe. While the universe is infinite I am transient and simply a part of it.

You control your body. So you and your body are not the same. The person is not you either, it's your creation... it's a mask...

I am a set of unique bio-electrical patterns maintained by my neural networks that reside in my brain. If my brain is damaged or destroyed then I will be damaged or destroyed. My body is simply a supporting framework for those patterns and a means for me to interact with the universe..

The brain is a piece of matter which allows the soul/consciousness to express itself in greater variety in the material world.

That’s fine if you define soul as a set of bio-electrical patterns maintained by neural networks. And is otherwise entirely dependent on the material existence of a brain.

consciousness flows everywhere, like a river... it passes through things... brains... everything...

Total nonsense. It is a result of brain activity and confined to your head.

“ The soul is a fantasy concept born of ignorance and does not exist. ”

That thought is born from arrogance.

No, just simple observation, and an appreciation for what is credible and what isn’t.

The brain creates the stuff which causes feelings, but the soul is the one who feels them.

More nonsense. There is absolutely nothing to indicate there is anything other than a brain involved.

what makes the brain do what it does?

Electron flow primarily.

“ Just insert "brain" as the answer if you think of any further questions. ”

yeah, just like theists insert "god" =)

Major difference – we know the brain exists and we understand a lot of what it does. There is absolutely nothing remotely similar to the claim for gods.

Atheists are also "brainwashed", just differently. They have difficulty to comprehend things like gods and souls.

BS. I was once a theist as were many atheists.

 

[Cris]

Sam,

I'll take that as a compliment, coming from you.

It was partly intended as such.

WIth our higher consciousness, we exist on other plane that is not corporeal and that is usually dismissed by the Western atheists since spirituality to them conjures up woo-woos.

No idea what a woo-woo is, but I reject it because it is pure unsupported fantasy.

But to ignore that plane of consciousness, which is separate from the physical and the mental, is to ignore a very essential and very crucial aspect of our humanity.

And to imagine such a plane exists is to delude oneself that there is anything other than the physical.

.. the duality of mind which causes distress and which needs to be regulated and appeased for detachment and relief.

There is no duality, there is only brain, and if under stress one can meditate and relieve that condition.

It is possibly one reason why atheism is so depressing for those in the West, because ignoring that part of the consciousness does not relieve the distress from it.

You are erroneously attempting to group all atheists together again as if they think with one mind and agenda. Atheists only have one thing in common – an absence of belief in gods; don’t try to assign them other properties. I am atheist and have none of the troubles you want to imply.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

*serious question*

I think it is not so simple. WIth our higher consciousness, we exist on other plane that is not corporeal and that is usually dismissed by the Western atheists since spirituality to them conjures up woo-woos.

What the heck is "higher consciousness"? Do you have any evidence that some "non-corporeal plane" exists?

It is possibly oe reason why atheism is so depressing for those in the West, because ignoring that part of the consciousness does not relieve the distress from it.

I have seen the type of depression you are talking about amongst some atheists. I suspect its a combination of factors which might include:

* Being an often hated minority by society.
* Being socially, financially, and emotionally abused by family members whom disagree with their positions.
* Not having a method of human relationship that provides the psychological benefits of religion (I suspect this is most severe one for adults).

These are real concrete reasons with very likely alot of supporting evidence... hardly a magical-thinking substitute such as ignoring the zaboombafoo plane of consciousness.

 

[superluminal]

What always makes me laugh is that when an atheist says there's no soul we can percieve, or that there's no evidence for god, or there's no reason to think there's some "higher" plane of existence, the theist will say "well how do you know?" and go on about how limited we are and how they know for sure that there's obviously a soul, a god, and some non-material/mental "plane" of existence. Theists are funny.

They get some interesting feeling in their head or chest and it immediately becomes something clearly not physical or "mental". "I feel so sad". Sadness is clearly a transcendent experience not of your brain, but one that exists on some ethereal other "plane".

Atheists know what they know, and what they don't. Theists don't know anything, and don't know that they don't.

Show me a soul. No? You say the soul is some immaterial essence that can't be measured? Then how do you know it exists my all powerful theist friend? Oh, right. You just need the correct epistemology, or read the bible/quran/etc. Or self-reflect (and make sure you have a dictionary of philosophical terms handy to make your pronouncements sound really cool and impressive).

Now watch the thousands of rambling words pour forth from the theists, dancing and convoluting and avoiding anything of substance.

It's high comedy.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam,

It was partly intended as such.

Thanks

No idea what a woo-woo is, but I reject it because it is pure unsupported fantasy.

Religion does not have a monopoly on spirituality.

And to imagine such a plane exists is to delude oneself that there is anything other than the physical.

Hmm so the emotional, the psychological is all invented? The effect of trauma, of subconscious repressions is all fantasy?

There is no duality, there is only brain, and if under stress one can meditate and relieve that condition.

There is duality, between the part of the mind that creates the stress we experience, the recognition of futility, pleasure, desire, greed, frustration and the part of the mind that can relieve this stress, which also requires recognition.

Why are married people less likely to fall sick or commit suicide?
Are they physically different?

You are erroneously attempting to group all atheists together again as if they think with one mind and agenda. Atheists only have one thing in common – an absence of belief in gods; don’t try to assign them other properties. I am atheist and have none of the troubles you want to imply.

Then you must feed your spirituality, only you don't recognise it as such.

 

[superluminal]

What the heck is "higher consciousness"? Do you have any evidence that some "non-corporeal plane" exists?

Theists have absolutely NO intention of letting a little thing like evidence influence their thoughts on gods and souls and such.

Isn't it the nature of a self reenforcing delusion to vehemently deny anything that might contradict it?

Now, you watch. Some theist will say "Ha, yeah. Just like your atheistic delusion, right!"

And we will say, "No, we don't make any claims for the existence of the unseen and unmeasurable."

And they will descend into nonsensical babble about the philosophical and ethereal nature of blah blah blah.

 

[S.A.M.]

What the heck is "higher consciousness"? Do you have any evidence that some "non-corporeal plane" exists?

I'm assuming you can observe some difference between yourself and an ape.

I have seen the type of depression you are talking about amongst some atheists. I suspect its a combination of factors which might include:

* Being an often hated minority by society.
* Being socially, financially, and emotionally abused by family members whom disagree with their positions.
* Not having a method of human relationship that provides the psychological benefits of religion (I suspect this is most severe one for adults).

Maybe it's just depression because of a lack of spiritual support system.

These are real concrete reasons with very likely alot of supporting evidence... hardly a magical-thinking substitute such as ignoring the zaboombafoo plane of consciousness.

Hopefully one of these you will realise that your plane of consciousness includes a subconscious and an unconscious; something which is not as advanced in apes.