Some fresh air

[Cyperium]

There have been much debate that the Bible allways put man higher than woman, here are some examples of equal or at least near-equal ideals between man and woman. These commandmends make woman and man equal in many cases. Which was probably not too common at those times.

I hope this can be a resting place for a while.

1 Chor 7:1-4
1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

1 Chor 7:10-17
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

 

[SnakeLord]

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Timothy 2:11

Well, there it is.

 

[usp8riot]

So what? If He made us, He can rank us. I couldn't care less if He put Jews before me either. If you already believe in God, you believe in rank. You believe in a higher power and you are a lower one. Man is at the top of the food chain and a lot of people don't like feeling like a lower being or believing in a power beyond themselves. To doubt God and His words is for unbelievers and you will never understand it all unless you believe. I myself, had to let go of some of my pride to believe.
And so what if the Bible mentions slaves and doesn't despise it. It's for unbelievers to think they have to have "a fun and gayous time here" or else life won't be worth living. Life is about work. Work is about life. To serve is why we are here. To think you have to have a lot of time for your own selfish needs to "party, dance, and be merry" is for unbelievers. And when you die, you may wind up festering in your own feces or byproduct of your own selfishness. Believers know they are here to serve and have no problem with it. It is only the unbelievers that have a problem with the word "slave", "work", or "serve". Those that have no God will have no understanding unless it is taught.

 

[Cyperium]

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Timothy 2:11

Well, there it is.

There are some characteristics that are a part of most womans identity as a woman - not thereof as a person - this submissiveness is one of those characteristics that shouldn't be seen as something bad (if it doesn't become too much!) but as something really nice and something worthy of appreciation. I've seen such a woman, and when it was appreciated the woman live up above all the other women I've seen (compared to her other women seems stiff somehow, she was soft).

>Disclaimer: This is my honest oppinion on a individual I met and the oppinions regarding other women is compared to that individual.<

You forget to mention that we men have to respect woman, and being the "authority" doesn't mean that we automatically doesn't allow things that we observe the woman to want. Don't stretch this SnakeLord!

It isn't just the view of society on girls, somehow it is also natural! Many things in the Bible speak of doing what comes natural to each person. Surely each person is unique, but if each do what comes natural to them (which is more than letting go or giving up) then we would see what 1 Timothy 2:11 really mean!

Who say that it is for the worse? I don't think woman are lower than men, because they are equal with the respect I have for them.

Also, just so you know and don't have to use it against me, I do follow womens advice, if they are good, and I don't prejudge them. However, I think the Bible speak of different teachings which may be made for men to teach (in other words not school teachers, but rather spiritual teachers).

I don't know, maybe some woman can teach over men, but characteristicly I think men are more able of that task.

I have had a female teacher and she was nice, but it was the male teacher that had the spiritual advices (not that he was loud about such things as God, but other spiritual advices that he gave us (life-lessons etc.)

I don't regard myself as any higher than woman, we are different. But if it is natural for a woman to be submissive then I hope she realises that and allow it to be so. However, if so, I also hope that the man respect her wish and don't take advantage of his position, cause that is wrong.

The middle-point, is to let go of this power struggle and see where that takes us. I really don't think of woman as lower, and I don't entertain that thought too often, but I've noticed that I do appreciate when they are "humble" towards men. Then again, I appreciate when anyone is humble, since it's much easier to talk with them and to interact with them.

 

[spidergoat]

So what? If He made us, He can rank us. ...

So, accept the hierarchy and work. A convenient arrangement for both the kings and priests who invented it.

Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin.

 

[spidergoat]

The Hypostasis of the Archons [a gnostic Christian text from Nag Hammadi-SG] describes Eve as the spiritual principle in humanity who raises Adam from his merely material condition:

And the spirit-endowed Woman came to [Adam] and spoke with him, saying, "Arise, Adam." And when he saw her, he said, "It is you who have given me life; you shall be called "Mother of all the living" - for it is she who is my mother. It is she who is the Physician, and the Woman, and She Who Has Given Birth." . . . Then the Female Spiritual Principle came in the Snake, the Instructor, and it taught them, saying, ". . . you shall not die; for it was out of jealousy that he said this to you. Rather, your eyes shall be open, and you shall become like gods, recognizing evil and good." . . . And the arrogant Ruler cursed the Woman . . . [and] . . . the Snake."

----------------------------

[from] Trimorphic Protennoai (literally, the "Triple-formed Primal Thought"), celebrates the feminine powers of Thought, Intelligence, and Foresight. The text opens as a divine figure speaks:

am [Protennoia the] Thought that [dwells] in [the Light] . . . [she who exists] before the All . . .I move in every creature . . . I am the Invisible One within the All. "

-----------------------------

Even more remarkable is the gnostic poem call the Thunder, Perfect Mind. This text contains a revelation spoken by a feminine power:

I am the first and the last, I am the honored one and the scorned one. I am the whore, and the holy one. I am the wife and the virgin. I am (the mother) and the daughter. . . . I am she whose wedding is great, and I have not taken a husband. . . I am knowledge, and ignorance. . . I am shameless; I am ashamed. I am strength, and I am fear. . . I am foolish, and I am wise. . . I am godless, and I am one whose God is great. "


From here.

 

[SnakeLord]

There are some characteristics that are a part of most womans identity as a woman - not thereof as a person - this submissiveness is one of those characteristics that shouldn't be seen as something bad (if it doesn't become too much!) but as something really nice and something worthy of appreciation. I've seen such a woman, and when it was appreciated the woman live up above all the other women I've seen (compared to her other women seems stiff somehow, she was soft).

None of this is relevant to the biblical passage quoted and nor is it an absolute based upon your understanding of one solitary woman.

You forget to mention that we men have to respect woman, and being the "authority" doesn't mean that we automatically doesn't allow things that we observe the woman to want. Don't stretch this SnakeLord!

I provided a biblical quote, nothing more. In saying, I couldn't have possibly "stretched" anything. I might have forgotten to mention the part of that particular passage that says to respect women, but that's probably simply because it doesn't exist.

It isn't just the view of society on girls, somehow it is also natural!

And women have been fighting against it for a long long time. They now do have authority over men, and do teach men - against the rules seen in Timothy.

Who say that it is for the worse?

All the women that have been fighting against it?

I don't think woman are lower than men, because they are equal with the respect I have for them.

Very noble of you indeed, but it's unlikely that how you feel has any bearing on how they feel.

However, I think the Bible speak of different teachings which may be made for men to teach (in other words not school teachers, but rather spiritual teachers).

There are now female priests. It seems probable that Timothy has played a distinct part in their absence from it for the past couple of millennia.

I don't know, maybe some woman can teach over men

Not according to Timothy they can't.

but characteristicly I think men are more able of that tas

Kindly justify the statement.

But if it is natural for a woman to be submissive then I hope she realises that and allow it to be so.

Much like islamic women heh? And when they rise against it, and show that they are far different to Cyperium's little opinion then what? According to Timothy she isn't allowed. So, very nice of you to say she's allowed to not be allowed to teach and have authority over men, but it's kinda silly.

The middle-point, is to let go of this power struggle and see where that takes us.

So in short: remove Timothy?

 

[Godless]

Women are not equal to men in Christianity, and still till today they are being oppressed by all religions.

click on link click again

Nough said!

Godless

 

[Cyperium]

None of this is relevant to the biblical passage quoted and nor is it an absolute based upon your understanding of one solitary woman.

It wasn't made to be relevant to the biblical passage quoted, I want to display that women are often more humble and emotional than men are.


I want to ask you a couple of questions:

1: Do you consider women different from men?
2: Do you think there has to be someone that consequently decides in home, especially if there is a conflict so that is to be solved?
3: If you argue that people should discuss conflicts in order for them to be solved, in what order of success has that proven to be?
4: Do you think that women have appreciated the values given to them to be more humble and "good hearted" than men.

5: Do you think it is greater for a person to hunt, and less great for a person to take care of household? Or is there equal quality for hunting and householding? Or should the tasks be spread amongst them? If so by whom? (take in mind number 3 with the last question)

I may have more questions, but lets see where this leads us.

I provided a biblical quote, nothing more. In saying, I couldn't have possibly "stretched" anything. I might have forgotten to mention the part of that particular passage that says to respect women, but that's probably simply because it doesn't exist.

Well, what about the passages in the starting post of this thread??

And women have been fighting against it for a long long time. They now do have authority over men, and do teach men - against the rules seen in Timothy.

Well, some women feel they are spiritually called to preach, if so then there may be women that are able for that task.

I can't recall any time when women haven't been able to teach at schools. If it in any culture was so, then I guess that we adapt to the culture we are born in.

All the women that have been fighting against it?

Then let that women speak and tell us what she has discomfort in.

Very noble of you indeed, but it's unlikely that how you feel has any bearing on how they feel.

You don't think that women appreciate a man that treats her with respect?

There are now female priests. It seems probable that Timothy has played a distinct part in their absence from it for the past couple of millennia.

Maybe.. Depends on what order in society they want to have. Was there many women fighting against such agenda at that time? Or has that emerged through the recent history?

Not according to Timothy they can't.

Well, it seems Timothy thought women were going to deceive men again if they had the power. I don't think that Timothy gave rise to it, but rather said what was allready a formed cultural standard, and Timothy's arguments are probably a justification of why they had that standard.

If each person is unique, and no one is justified to have power over any other, then since one partner have to be the one that decides things (in order to maintain some kind of order) a tossing of coin could be used to achieve that ranking. However if everyone is unique, then gender could very well be that tossing of a coin, without the feeling that it was simply random (since gender is a very profound part of our personality).

Don't forget that being the decesive one, has ups and downs, not allways is it good to have the power over someone. What if the tables turned? What if it became bad to have power over someone? What is the difference of the servant and the king?

The one that teaches is the servant to the ones that wants to learn. The king is the servant to the people. The one that makes the decisions is the servant of the one that asks. You forget in your eager to blackmail the Bible, or do you see with open eyes? Have you found a option that has both sides of the coin?

Kindly justify the statement.

I think it has to do with a mans role in a family, and a mans predisposition to rule and teach. Women teach too, indeed, but their teachings has a different favour.

Maybe I can't justify that objectivly, but in my view it is so (and I did express it as my view).

Much like islamic women heh? And when they rise against it, and show that they are far different to Cyperium's little opinion then what? According to Timothy she isn't allowed. So, very nice of you to say she's allowed to not be allowed to teach and have authority over men, but it's kinda silly.

I said that if she finds herself to be submittive to man, then she should be. If she finds that it isn't the natural order for her, then she should do what she is able to. Indeed laws must be followed, she might not have been able to do what she felt like in those days, but if she sincerily feel that it is natural for her to teach unto man, and she finds that she are able to, then who is to say she isn't allowed to?

In the order that was in Timothys days, she wouldn't have been allowed to, but that isn't to say that she can't in these days. But this doesn't apply generally of course, but individually, as it is a individual responsibility that she has over her actions.

Also remember that they expressed this because "that is the only order we have" and they also realised that people might rise up to those kind of statements.

So in short: remove Timothy?

No of course not, but treat it with respect to the days of Timothy and the reason he had for it.

 

[Cyperium]

Women are not equal to men in Christianity, and still till today they are being oppressed by all religions.

click on link click again

Nough said!

Godless

Woman are equal to men in Christianity, also Christianity equal races, and tells us to respect foreigners.

The reason why women should be submissive to men, is because an order is achieved in which both genders may find pleasure in the role they have. However, if someone of any gender feel that it is not in their natural order to be submissive or have power over someone, then that might be strived for.

However, to have rules is to settle conflicts, so that each person feels that he/she has the right to be who he/she is. The important thing is that order is achieved and that we build up and don't break down.

 

[SkinWalker]

A collected anthology of Bronze Age mythology and belief is hardly any source that should be used in modern society for how the male gender should treat the female. Such antiquated nonsense has no place in modern society when it comes to this and our own society is fully capable of establishing mores independent of our Bronze Age ancestors.

Times are different. Toss that trash out and lets move on.

 

[pasquala]

Originally Posted by SnakeLord
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Timothy 2:11

Yes, Adam came first, but he was lonely and needed a companion (an equal) Eve was made from the rib of Adam. Not above him or below him, but from the middle of him. Not from behind him or in front of him, but from the side of him. She was made not to be above, below, behind, or before him. She was made to be his companion and his equal. Yes, Eve was deceived first, but who was she deceived by....Satan...a male :bugeye:

There are now female priests. It seems probable that Timothy has played a distinct part in their absence from it for the past couple of millennia.

Well, there it is.

To risk contradiction of my above statement, I do have to admit that I would rather hear a man preach to me than a woman.

 

[Gordon]

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Timothy 2:11

Well, there it is.

It is, as always, important to know the context in order to correctly understand the meaning. Timothy was at Ephesus when Paul wrote the letter to him known as 1 Timothy. Ephesus was a centre of many forms of pagan worship. It was inevitable that there were in the congregations therefore people who were very new to christianity and who as Gentiles had no Jewish background either. What was important to Paul here was to ensure that christian worship was not distracted.

The Message translation is much better in this context:

1-3The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble contemplation. This is the way our Savior God wants us to live.
4-7He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we've learned: that there's one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out. This and this only has been my appointed work: getting this news to those who have never heard of God, and explaining how it works by simple faith and plain truth.

8-10Since prayer is at the bottom of all this, what I want mostly is for men to pray—not shaking angry fists at enemies but raising holy hands to God. And I want women to get in there with the men in humility before God, not primping before a mirror or chasing the latest fashions but doing something beautiful for God and becoming beautiful doing it.

11-15I don't let women take over and tell the men what to do. They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels. On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this.

I note that you have ended your quote before the end of the chapter. Woman (Eve) is stated to be the origin of sin but also to be the instrument of salvation (by giving berth to Jesus). So that's pretty balanced. It is clear from Genesis (which as a Jewish Leader, Paul would have known very well) that equal blame was ascribed by God to Adam as to Eve so this verse cannot imply the opposite.

Note that verse 9 states that women are to do prayer in exactly the same way as the men, rather than using the meeting to indulge in personal vanity so the passage actually indicates that both sexes should get equally involved in what the meeting was actually about and not allow any distractions from it.

Note that the men are also accused of distraction in the form of arguing so they do not get off Scott free either.

If you study the passage fully and in context, it is not anti-women and it most certainly does not state that women should not be involved in the worship - excatly the opposite in fact.

regards,



Gordon.

 

[Gordon]

So what? If He made us, He can rank us. I couldn't care less if He put Jews before me either. If you already believe in God, you believe in rank. You believe in a higher power and you are a lower one. Man is at the top of the food chain and a lot of people don't like feeling like a lower being or believing in a power beyond themselves. To doubt God and His words is for unbelievers and you will never understand it all unless you believe. I myself, had to let go of some of my pride to believe.
And so what if the Bible mentions slaves and doesn't despise it. It's for unbelievers to think they have to have "a fun and gayous time here" or else life won't be worth living. Life is about work. Work is about life. To serve is why we are here. To think you have to have a lot of time for your own selfish needs to "party, dance, and be merry" is for unbelievers. And when you die, you may wind up festering in your own feces or byproduct of your own selfishness. Believers know they are here to serve and have no problem with it. It is only the unbelievers that have a problem with the word "slave", "work", or "serve". Those that have no God will have no understanding unless it is taught.

As a christian, I have no problem with the serve part but you seem to be making serving and enjoyment two mutually exclusive items.

This is not my experience and certainly not scriptural. I have had more fun working in Mexico with poor children than with any transient man made entertainment. But the point is it really was fun!

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the real villain is the son who stayed at home because he worked for his father out of a sense of duty and not love This can make people bitter whereas doing it for love makes you happy and makes even the most boring and otherwise 'demeaning' tasks fun. This is the experience of myself and my colleagues at Detling Christian Conference who will tell you how happy they are to clean toilets, supervise car parks, etc.as well as undertaking the theoretically more 'spiritual' stuff.

You can worship God doing all sorts of things and worshipping God should make a christian happy so christians should be happy.

In regard to ranks, People are appointed over animals and God is Lord over all but we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galations 3 is quite clear,

In Christ's Family
28-29In Christ's family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ's family, then you are Abraham's famous "descendant," heirs according to the covenant promises.

In regard to 'unbelievers', chill out a bit. Our calling is to show people why they should become part of the family of Christ. We do not do that by insult or threat!


regards,


Gordon.

 

[Gordon]

Yes, Adam came first, but he was lonely and needed a companion (an equal) Eve was made from the rib of Adam. Not above him or below him, but from the middle of him. Not from behind him or in front of him, but from the side of him. She was made not to be above, below, behind, or before him. She was made to be his companion and his equal. Yes, Eve was deceived first, but who was she deceived by....Satan...a male :bugeye:


To risk contradiction of my above statement, I do have to admit that I would rather hear a man preach to me than a woman.

I agree with your analysis of Adam and Eve. Whether Satan (or any angels) are really 'male' may be a bit of a theological debate!

In terms of preachers, there appear to be many more men than women but I don't think you can ever make generalisations as to whether gender really is relevant to excellence in public speaking (including preaching). I have listened to some excellent women preachers (and women secular speakers) and some equally dire men in both categories so my view would be likely to be towards gender not being relevant to skill in this area.


regards,


Gordon.

 

[Gordon]

There have been much debate that the Bible allways put man higher than woman, here are some examples of equal or at least near-equal ideals between man and woman. These commandmends make woman and man equal in many cases. Which was probably not too common at those times.

I hope this can be a resting place for a while.

To support your view, here are a list of references which make it quite clear that women not only participated in worship like men in the early church but were also leaders.


John 1:12: All people, men and women, have the opportunity to become children of God - presumably without regard to gender.

Acts 2:1-21: At the time of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was described as entering both men and women. In Verse 17, Peter recites a saying of the prophet Joel that talks about sons and daughters; Verse 18 talks about men and women.

Acts 9:36: Paul refers to a woman (Tabitha in Aramaic, Dorcas in Greek, Gazelle in English) as a Christian disciple.

Acts 18:24-26 describes how a married couple, Priscilla and Aquila, both acted in the role of pastor to a man from Alexandria, called Apollos. Various translations of the Bible imply that they taught him in the synagogue (Amplified Bible, King James Version, Rheims, New American Standard, New American, New Revised Standard) However, the New International Version have an unusual translation of this passage. The NIV states that the teaching occurred in Priscilla's and Aquila's home. The original Greek does not explicitly give a location but the important thing is that they both taught him, wherever it was.

Acts 21:9: Four young women are referred to as prophetesses.

Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister ("diakonos" in Greek) of the church at Cenchrea. Some translations say deaconess; others try to downgrade her position by mistranslating it as "servant" or "helper".

Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."

Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus and a female apostle, Lunia, as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV) The Amplified Bible translates this passage as "They are men held in high esteem among the apostles." The Revised Standard Version shows it as "they are men of note among the apostles." The reference to them both being men does not appear in the original Greek text. The word "men" was simply inserted by the translators, apparently because the translators' minds recoiled from the concept of a female apostle. Many translations, including the Amplified Bible, Rheims New Testament, New American Standard Bible, and the New International Version simply picked the letter "s" out of thin air. They converted the original "Junia" (a woman's name) into "Junias" (a man's name) in order to warp St. Paul's original writing by erasing all mention of a female apostle. Junia was first converted into a man only in the "13th century, when Aegidius of Rome (1245-1316 CE) referred to both Andronicus and Junia as "honorable men."
This is the literal translation of the Greek, "salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me."

1 Corinthians 1:11: Chloe is mentioned as the owner of a house where Christian meetings were held. There is some ambiguity as to whether the women actually led the house churches. Similar passages mention, with the same ambiguity: The mother of Mark in Acts 12:12, and
Lydia in Acts 16:14-5, and 40, and
Nympha in (Col 4:15).

1 Corinthians 12:4-7: This discusses gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to all believers, both men and women. The New International Version obscures this message; in Verse 6 translated as "all men", whereas other translations use the terms "all", "all persons", "in everyone", and "in all."

1 Corinthians 16:3: Paul refers to a married couple: Priscilla and Aquila as his fellow workers in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." (NIV). Again "anyone" appears to mean both men and women.

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (NIV) This is perhaps the most famous passage in the New Testament that assigns equal status to individuals of both genders (and all races, nationalities and slave status as well).

Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as his coworkers who were active evangelists, spreading the gospel.

Philemon 2: Paul writes his letter to "Apphia, our sister" and two men as the three leaders of a house church.

1 Peter 4:10-11: This passages discusses all believers serving others with whatever gifts the Holy Spirit has given them, "faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms." (NIV) Presumably this would mean that some women are given the gift of being an effective pastor, and should be permitted to exercise that gift.

It is clear that misogyny has been input by translators and that women actually had a status equal to men in the early church. This undoubtedly changed later in many churches and regrettably is still the case in some, but the evidence both of what the early church did and scripture is firmly on the side of equality. Note that this does not mean that men and women were regarded as the same. They are different (and not just physically) and that has always been, and will always be, the case but they are equal in status in the sight of God.

The view that male humans have God given dominion over female humans is not christian. It is totally heretical.

regards,


Gordon.

 

[swivel]

Snakelord owns this thread while hardly trying. Impressive.


How about the fact that if a woman is accused of not being a virgin on her wedding night, there are two outcomes of the trial: If the woman is found guilty, she is killed. If she is found innocent, the man receives a fine.

And god makes it evident that he thinks men are superior. When he wanted to hurt a large group of people, did he ever take their first-born daughter? Nope.

Besides, men were made in god's image. Women were made when none of the other animals were adequate companions for Adam. So women are just cute pets, according to the Bible.

Seriously... anyone can prove almost any point with the Bible because it is so horribly edited. It stands on both sides of nearly every issue. So pulling out quotes from it is no way to prove anything.

More important than what some god thinks women should be is what WOMEN think women should be. Let's find our ethics within ourselves, and not from a horribly put-together and unevenly translated anthology of drivel.

 

[c7ityi_]

And god makes it evident that he thinks men are superior.

no, not god... the bible.

 

[Gordon]

Snakelord owns this thread while hardly trying. Impressive.


How about the fact that if a woman is accused of not being a virgin on her wedding night, there are two outcomes of the trial: If the woman is found guilty, she is killed. If she is found innocent, the man receives a fine.


And god makes it evident that he thinks men are superior. When he wanted to hurt a large group of people, did he ever take their first-born daughter? Nope.

This is because of the social norms of the time. Killing all the eldest daughters of the families of the Egyptians for instance would have not affected them in the same way because of their (humanly) devised society.

Besides, men were made in god's image. Women were made when none of the other animals were adequate companions for Adam. So women are just cute pets, according to the Bible.

Not so. Genesis 1 states,

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

The word 'man' in verse 26 is Strongs 0120 and it means humankind in total, both male and female. Just to make this absolutely clear verse 27 quotes 'male and female'.

The idea of a helpmate used in Genesis 2 in no way infers subjugation. The two are to be as one unit. If one was meant to be over the other, that would have been made quite clear. As stated elsewhere, there is much symbolism in the fact it was 'Adam's side'. The man and woman were to act side by side together as one. There is little difference in God making the two except in the raw material. Man is made of dust. Woman is made of already living material. This is all physical and has nothing to do with 'God's image'. This latter is a spiritual connection and not a physical one.

Seriously... anyone can prove almost any point with the Bible because it is so horribly edited. It stands on both sides of nearly every issue. So pulling out quotes from it is no way to prove anything.

More important than what some god thinks women should be is what WOMEN think women should be. Let's find our ethics within ourselves, and not from a horribly put-together and unevenly translated anthology of drivel.

This thread concerns whether christianity regards women as inferior to men or not. The Bible is thus extremely relevant. Whether you find it relevant to you is a personal matter but it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

The problem with what women think about women or men about men or any other combination is of course that there is no consistency whatever in what any human groups believe (just read this forum!). So if you do not like the Bible because you believe there are many different views in it and its many translations, you have chosen an option which is greatly worse in that regard!

Historically women's status in Jewish society was reduced to less and less by the regulatory regime of the Pharisees and by Christ's time had reached a very low point (this can be checked against Old Testament scripture and other Jewish writings). Jesus made it clear that women had a status far higher than the norms of that current Jewish society. Generally Greek society around this time had a higher status for women and so as christianity spread, Jesus' words and actions combined with the Gentile norm produced in the Early Church the concepts I have outlined in the New Testament references (in an earlier post).

Judaism post the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 and the later diaspora not surprisingly went into a time warp and so women's status in orthodox Judaism remains much as it was at that time.

The traditional Roman Catholic church view of women over the years certainly does not seem to accord with New Testament scripture and practice but more evangelical churches generally have women in many different roles including pastors, vicars etc. I do accept that the Anglican church is still arguing about women bishops but I am hopeful that this will be resolved succesfully. There are some excellent candidates for female Bishops!


Please do read some more of the Bible. Whether you agree with what it states, It is far from 'drivel'.


regards,


Gordon.

 

[SkinWalker]

Please do read some more of the Bible. Whether you agree with what it states, It is far from 'drivel'.

Princeton's WordNet defines "drivel" in the first definition as "a worthless message."

I'd say that, in the context being presented, drivel is spot on.