So what do all of the theists get out of it?

[Michael]

the only outcome for an Atheist... is to rot underground.

No perhaps we become God and you worship us

they dont even want an afterlife..

I can't speak for other Atheists but I'd like an afterlife (aka - simply more life). I don't want to end.

and refuse to accept the possibility..

I said it is impossible to prove a negative. It may be that we are born again in some sort of karmic cycle. That is possible.

I never said anything was impossible.

therefore... they are likely to get what they ask for....

which is nothing.

You do not know that. Again, perhaps we become your God and you worship us. That is possible. Or perhaps we are born again. Or, and more likely, we (you and I) experience no more than we did before we existed.

the Theist... hopes for more... and maybe... maybe he gets it.

Maybe. And maybe so does the Atheist. Or maybe neither - and I think that is the point.

Michael

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

ANY AHTEIST who can be open minded enough TO the possibility in some form of karmic reincarnation, must.... must... must... admit there is as much possibility of a creator, who collects the cream of the crop of his children..

and those who hate god, or oppose god... or dont see god.... are the bad apples.... the ones who are not good enough to be remembered forever by storage in heaven... as souls.

assuming souls are mearly, non-evolving collections of all our memories of being... and god wants them... because we are his children...

born for the purposes of living... to make memories.. good memories.

god.. doesnt want memories of pain.. suffering.. evil.. and sin.

god wants too remember all the good of man.





if you can believe in reincarnation, then you can believe in that.

-MT

 

[SkinWalker]

What good reason is there to believe in either souls or reincarnation?

 

[Michael]

ANY AHTEIST who can be open minded enough TO the possibility in some form of karmic reincarnation, must.... must... must... admit there is as much possibility of a creator, who collects the cream of the crop of his children..

and those who hate god, or oppose god... or dont see god.... are the bad apples.... the ones who are not good enough to be remembered forever by storage in heaven... as souls.

assuming souls are mearly, non-evolving collections of all our memories of being... and god wants them... because we are his children...

born for the purposes of living... to make memories.. good memories.

god.. doesnt want memories of pain.. suffering.. evil.. and sin.

god wants too remember all the good of man.





if you can believe in reincarnation, then you can believe in that.

-MT

I do believe the possibility exists.
I simply lack a belief that such a reality exists.

 

[lightgigantic]

What good reason is there to believe in either souls or reincarnation?

the clear observation that we retain the same self as context despite undergoing radical changes of body from the cradle to the grave

 

[lightgigantic]

I've seen all the discussions and debates about what religion has done for the world blah, blah, blah; but that's not what I'm looking for here. I'd just like to know what you, as an individual and theist get out of your religion; self-fulfillment, imposement of morals, whatever.

The reason that I want to ask this is because I want to know if there's anything that you think you get out of religion that couldn't be shown to you just from being nice out of the goodness of your heart or just because you are being logical.


P.S. I don't want to get any replies that imply that there is or isn't a god or some supernatural power overhead, like, 'oh, well if i don't do this I'll go to hell'. I suppose that's all, discuss away.

In short, I get a higher standard of life that makes a solution to all problems, issues and differences on all scales (individual, familial, community, nation, planet, universe etc) - and of course its the nature of higher standards granted by religion that they will carry through beyond the demise of this body.

basically this higher standard of knowledge is carried out through understanding the intrinsic nature between god and all life

BG 18.20: That knowledge by which one undivided spiritual nature is seen in all living entities, though they are divided into innumerable forms, you should understand to be in the mode of goodness.


the best that material knowledge can muster is trying to nut out how everything can be accommodated differently

BG 18.21: That knowledge by which one sees that in every different body there is a different type of living entity you should understand to be in the mode of passion.

in the mode of material knowledge there is no unification - you simply get things like the united nations putting more flags out the front of their premises until everything ultimately fractures into a melee.

 

[geeser]

happiness= because you accept death as a positive thing and it does not hinder your subconscious.


freedom- you are free from negative emotions that no life after death brings, you think your friends and family are in a better place, so you dont feel so sad for them, and you accept death of others better,


knowledge- you have greater understanding of another way of life.


freedom from problems- not freedom from all problems, but you have a more positive outlook on life and dont dwell on the smaller problems in life as much,


solutions to all problems - i dont know about that



escape from suffering- the suffering and pain that death brings to you and your friends and family,


peace.

happiness - because as an atheist, I accept death as inevitable, thus dont think about it, so it does not hinder my conscious.


freedom - I'm free from negative irrational emotions, that believing in sky daddies brings, my deceased friends and family are always in my thought, so I dont feel sad, I celebrate there existence.


knowledge - I have a greater understanding of truth and life, I respect life to the nth degree, I have no desire to kill for any reason, be it religious or other.


freedom from problems - not freedom from all problems, but I have a more positive outlook on life and dont live in a fantasy world.


solutions to all problems - i dont know about that, an impossiblity, I think.


escape from suffering - there is no escape from suffering and pain, it's irrational to think there is. I'm more accepting of the inevitability's that life and death bring, thus I spend my life trying to alleviate some of the suffering instead of wishful thinking.

 

[SnakeLord]

god.. doesnt want memories of pain.. suffering.. evil.. and sin.

Given that this god is supposedly omniscient, it does and always will have 'memories' of pain, suffering and evil whether it wants those memories or not.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

happiness - because as an atheist, I accept death as inevitable, thus dont think about it, so it does not hinder my conscious.


freedom - I'm free from negative irrational emotions, that believing in sky daddies brings, my deceased friends and family are always in my thought, so I dont feel sad, I celebrate there existence.


knowledge - I have a greater understanding of truth and life, I respect life to the nth degree, I have no desire to kill for any reason, be it religious or other.


freedom from problems - not freedom from all problems, but I have a more positive outlook on life and dont live in a fantasy world.


solutions to all problems - i dont know about that, an impossiblity, I think.


escape from suffering - there is no escape from suffering and pain, it's irrational to think there is. I'm more accepting of the inevitability's that life and death bring, thus I spend my life trying to alleviate some of the suffering instead of wishful thinking.

so your happy about your belief system just as theists are for theres, so it works out for everyone.


peace.

 

[SkinWalker]

the clear observation that we retain the same self as context despite undergoing radical changes of body from the cradle to the grave

That's a good reason to believe in memory. Do you have a good reason to believe in reincarnation? I have several reasons I hope reincarnation is true, but I can find no good reasons to accept it as a matter of fact.

 

[lightgigantic]

That's a good reason to believe in memory.

then the next question to you would be what exactly is that memory - (if you are going to say 'the brain' please specific and say what part of you are referring to, since that part is certainly not knowable to experts in the field)

Do you have a good reason to believe in reincarnation?

given that reincarnation is about retaining the essential aspect of self through changing bodies, and given that is exactly what is happening literally at every moment, its not so difficult

I have several reasons I hope reincarnation is true, but I can find no good reasons to accept it as a matter of fact.

the body is changing and the self as context remains the same - the reason is that the self is an independent and separate entity from what we know as the body - if you are saying that it is not reasonable because you cannot see it that is not reasonable, since we would hardly hold your seeing power as the ultimate authority in what is real or not in this world

 

[SkinWalker]

then the next question to you would be what exactly is that memory - (if you are going to say 'the brain' please specific and say what part of you are referring to, since that part is certainly not knowable to experts in the field)

Why do I need to completely know and understand the cause in order to recognize the effect? If this is an argument for the delusion that you appear to have about "reincarnation," then its a miserable failure.

given that reincarnation is about retaining the essential aspect of self through changing bodies, and given that is exactly what is happening literally at every moment, its not so difficult

That's an aspect that you hope and believe about the delusion of reincarnation, but you haven't demonstrated it to be a real aspect. Please do so.

the body is changing and the self as context remains the same - the reason is that the self is an independent and separate entity from what we know as the body - if you are saying that it is not reasonable because you cannot see it that is not reasonable, since we would hardly hold your seeing power as the ultimate authority in what is real or not in this world

That the "self" is independent is an illusion. This is something that neurologists have demonstrated time and again. I suggest you might read some of the works of neurological literature, even the popular work by V.S. Ramachandran, Phantoms of the Brain discusses this. For you to claim yourself special and above other forms of life, simply because you have awareness is an egoist philosophy, which sums up the deluded philosophy of reincarnation as well.

There simply is no good reason to believe that there is a 'soul' that 'reincarnates.'

Nor have you demonstrated one.

I'm sure, however, that you will not tire of further postmodernist mumbo jumbo or quotes from various mythical texts that highlight your superstitions to support your delusions.

 

[lightgigantic]

Skinwalker

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
then the next question to you would be what exactly is that memory - (if you are going to say 'the brain' please specific and say what part of you are referring to, since that part is certainly not knowable to experts in the field)
”
Why do I need to completely know and understand the cause in order to recognize the effect?

well we are talking about what the cause is aren't we? For a person who cannot tolerate postmodernist mumbo jumbo or quotes from various mythical texts that highlight your superstitions to support delusions, you wouldn't want to be found guilty of issuing yourself a poetic license in this field?

If this is an argument for the delusion that you appear to have about "reincarnation," then its a miserable failure.

all I have talked about is what everyone experiences in this life - no need for you to start having a cardiac arrest because at this point it doesn't even require a discussion of the "G" word

“
given that reincarnation is about retaining the essential aspect of self through changing bodies, and given that is exactly what is happening literally at every moment, its not so difficult
”
That's an aspect that you hope and believe about the delusion of reincarnation, but you haven't demonstrated it to be a real aspect. Please do so.

once again, its the common experience of everyone - you can work yourself up in a frenzy by calling me 'delusional' because you anticipate that I will mention the word "God", but please remember I haven't mentioned that yet

“
the body is changing and the self as context remains the same - the reason is that the self is an independent and separate entity from what we know as the body - if you are saying that it is not reasonable because you cannot see it that is not reasonable, since we would hardly hold your seeing power as the ultimate authority in what is real or not in this world
”
That the "self" is independent is an illusion.

then maybe you can establish why it is that you are not deluded, since it is everyone's experience that the self as context remains unchanged despite the complete overhaul of the body over time

This is something that neurologists have demonstrated time and again.

they have not demonstrated anything of the sort

I suggest you might read some of the works of neurological literature, even the popular work by V.S. Ramachandran, Phantoms of the Brain discusses this.

he doesn't discuss the self as context - he does discuss the nature of the conceived self however

For you to claim yourself special and above other forms of life, simply because you have awareness is an egoist philosophy, which sums up the deluded philosophy of reincarnation as well.

once again, its everyone's experience that they retain the same self of context through out their life - even law recognizes this - so does your mother

There simply is no good reason to believe that there is a 'soul' that 'reincarnates.'

when I present the facts of how our body gets completely overhauled yet we retain the same self as context you simply call it all delusional, even though it is a simple non-controversial point of both science and law.
and then later on you try to present something to the contrary which is not even talking about the self as context.

Nor have you demonstrated one.

as indicated above, you are not talking about the same thing as me

I'm sure, however, that you will not tire of further postmodernist mumbo jumbo or quotes from various mythical texts that highlight your superstitions to support your delusions.

GOD
-sorry couldn't resist