Prerequisite for Bible reading
I think reading the Sumerian texts should be a prerequisite for Bible reading.
I think reading the Sumerian texts should be a prerequisite for Bible reading.
So many religions and gods
- Thread starter truth
- Start date
I dance around what truth, exactly? You haven't submitted any basis for your claims except those two quotes (which only seem to strengthen my case). Now you are resorting to personal attacks again, just when I thought we were making progress.
If it they are stories, fine. Believe that if you want. But then they are stories already written down and available in Egypt within 40 years of Jesus death.
PS. Snakelord and Medicine*Woman: you don't believe the Sumerian stories either, so you don't learn from them any more than you would from the Bible. I have read the ones provided by Snakelord earlier, and they seemed to show that the similarities only highlight the differences.
If you don't learn from something it has no meaning.
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Jenyar, you tap faster when you lie!
Jenyar, you're a liar in tap shoes. You can dance around your own lies, but don't start telling lies about the rest of us. I've read some of the Sumerian texts, and they discount everything the Bible says. Don't tell me what I believe, and don't tell me what I have or haven't learned. Are you claiming that you're psychic, too? I went to a Xian university, ugh! I've studied the Bible many times over, and I still choose not to believe a word of it. Perhaps if you quit dancing around everyone else's knowledge, you might learn something. You surely aren't teaching the rest of us anything with your incessant Xian blabbering. Please, take off those tap shoes, go to a library or book store, and start reading the truth. You are so blind to the truth that you're just another pathetic example of a misinformed Xian. Sadly, you believe the lies. You have no credibility whatsoever on this forum. Please, go find yourself a Xian forum and have a field day communicating with your like-minded losers.
Jenyar, you're a liar in tap shoes. You can dance around your own lies, but don't start telling lies about the rest of us. I've read some of the Sumerian texts, and they discount everything the Bible says. Don't tell me what I believe, and don't tell me what I have or haven't learned. Are you claiming that you're psychic, too? I went to a Xian university, ugh! I've studied the Bible many times over, and I still choose not to believe a word of it. Perhaps if you quit dancing around everyone else's knowledge, you might learn something. You surely aren't teaching the rest of us anything with your incessant Xian blabbering. Please, take off those tap shoes, go to a library or book store, and start reading the truth. You are so blind to the truth that you're just another pathetic example of a misinformed Xian. Sadly, you believe the lies. You have no credibility whatsoever on this forum. Please, go find yourself a Xian forum and have a field day communicating with your like-minded losers.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
No. They are stories that include a confused, unverified, 2nd-hand account of a crucifixion and resurrection.
So, Jenyar-of-the-70-books, which stories were "already written down and available in Egypt" by 75 CE and what is the manuscript evidence? Perhaps we can have a real discussion after all.
Re: Jenyar, you tap faster when you lie!
1)You don't believe either of them (as I state in my post)
2)You believe the Sumerian text (in which case I would ask why)
But do you believe the Sumerian texts? One fiction cannot "discount" another - so there are only two possibilities left (since you told me yourself you don't believe anything the Bible says):
1)You don't believe either of them (as I state in my post)
2)You believe the Sumerian text (in which case I would ask why)
I don't need to tell you what you believe. You do that quite clearly enough yourself.
Your hold on the truth is just as tenuous as my own. I don't believe your truth (whatever it is - "the Bible is wrong" is no truth, it is a sweeping emotional claim without scholarly grounds).
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Once again, Jenyar-of-the-70-books, which stories were "already written down and available in Egypt" by 75 CE and what is the manuscript evidence?
I will address this after you substantiate the claim - your proof, your burden. I'll lay it out:
Substantiate,
1)confused
2)unverified
3)2nd hand
John shows a more complicated theology than the other gospels. Mark (generally accepted to be the oldest gospel) is credited as establishing the church in Egypt (allegedly he died being dragged through the streets of Alexandria for two days) (Mark, the Evangelist). Matthew and Luke were already quoted by Ignatius before 110 CE (Ignatius quotes from two gospels and some Pauline epistles), which means they were already available to him in Syria before 100CE.
Because of the historical allusions found in the Gospel of Mark to the events of the First Jewish Revolt, the period of five years between 70 and 75 CE is the most plausible dating for the Gospel of Mark within the broader timeframe indicated of 65 to 80 CE. (Early Christian Writings: (The gospel of Mark)).
Mark could not have been to Egypt any time after 80 CE (some sources put his death to before 70 CE). The gospel of the Egyptians was developed between 80-150 CE (Early Christian Writings: the gospel of the Egyptians). By that time, John was already available. John is known by the Gnostics of Nag Hammadi (in Upper Egypt), and they were already considered heretical by Polycarp between 100 and 155 CE (The Nag Hammadi Library and Polycarp)
*edit*
I have since read that according to the history of the Christian Church in Alexandria, Egypt, the gospel of Christ was first brought there by Mark in the reign of the Roman emperor Nero (54- 67 AD) and is documented as spreading to Middle Egypt by the middle of the second century, the period where the Rylands John papyrus was found.
- the primitive Christians
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i'll have a shot at truth's original question
religion is a powerfull intoxicant for many, it's such a powerfull idea that people have wars over it would you believe.
i've been to a couple of 'new' churches, the intoxicated vibe i get from there is like walking into a drug fueled dance party. people are uplifted in much the same way.
there is the group effect where, people flock to one particular idea they like and well religion then gets carved up.
heaven sounds great to lots of people and everyone desperately want's to get there..... some so called good christians will end up doing very bad things all in the name of good.
it's way way out of hand.
it's quite obvious to me, from reading lots of religious texts that God selects people's worthiness as an individual not based on how hard they have tried.
It's like American Idol or some other popstars competition. It doesn't matter how hard you try or how little you try, the judges know if your real talent or not.
It doesn't matter how hard you pray it wont make one sh1t bit of difference. You will be asessed on your character and qualities and thoughts.
Even if you have a life of drugs sex and various other sins, you still could go to heaven.
Think of a mind/soul like a software program, it is just information, it doesn't have physical existence, however you can't deny it does.
I think the idea is with a place like heaven, is that is populated with minds that are functional, balanced and sane.
Hell is the refuse dump for minds that are dysfunction and corrupt and have no place, like software programs that crash a computer, they get deleted.
A fundamental law of the universe is that information cannot be destroyed, so technically a soul can't be destroyed.
There is no devil and there is no punishment, except bad software like bad souls is usually self-harming.
Bare in mind, no soul is perfect, there is no such thing as perfect even, not even god is perfect (what IS perfect?).
So it's not about purity of thought or going to church on sunday, it's not about who did what 2000 years ago. It's about self development..... no not listening to stupid self-help tapes and motivational stuff.....
it's about building your mind and your personality, feeding your intellegence and being a better person all round.
generally, the more intellegent and stable you are, the less you are likely to be a bad person, in terms of hurting people and doing bad things.
So it's not about actually doing good or bad things it's what kind of person you actually are.
i've come to those conclusions after ALOT of reading and thinking.. and that was just brushing over my conclusions too.
I didn't just read the first bible/quran/torah that was handed to me and buy it word for word.
The meaning is deeper than that..... and THAT is where the trick is.
So does that mean i'm going to heaven? I don't know, I don't care, I'm atheist so I very much doubt that is the nature of the unvierse. But at least I understand the message behind religion.... that said i don't have to give it the time of day and worry about it any more....
I hope this gives a interesting (not too odd i hope) and different perspective, Truth.
religion is a powerfull intoxicant for many, it's such a powerfull idea that people have wars over it would you believe.
i've been to a couple of 'new' churches, the intoxicated vibe i get from there is like walking into a drug fueled dance party. people are uplifted in much the same way.
there is the group effect where, people flock to one particular idea they like and well religion then gets carved up.
heaven sounds great to lots of people and everyone desperately want's to get there..... some so called good christians will end up doing very bad things all in the name of good.
it's way way out of hand.
it's quite obvious to me, from reading lots of religious texts that God selects people's worthiness as an individual not based on how hard they have tried.
It's like American Idol or some other popstars competition. It doesn't matter how hard you try or how little you try, the judges know if your real talent or not.
It doesn't matter how hard you pray it wont make one sh1t bit of difference. You will be asessed on your character and qualities and thoughts.
Even if you have a life of drugs sex and various other sins, you still could go to heaven.
Think of a mind/soul like a software program, it is just information, it doesn't have physical existence, however you can't deny it does.
I think the idea is with a place like heaven, is that is populated with minds that are functional, balanced and sane.
Hell is the refuse dump for minds that are dysfunction and corrupt and have no place, like software programs that crash a computer, they get deleted.
A fundamental law of the universe is that information cannot be destroyed, so technically a soul can't be destroyed.
There is no devil and there is no punishment, except bad software like bad souls is usually self-harming.
Bare in mind, no soul is perfect, there is no such thing as perfect even, not even god is perfect (what IS perfect?).
So it's not about purity of thought or going to church on sunday, it's not about who did what 2000 years ago. It's about self development..... no not listening to stupid self-help tapes and motivational stuff.....
it's about building your mind and your personality, feeding your intellegence and being a better person all round.
generally, the more intellegent and stable you are, the less you are likely to be a bad person, in terms of hurting people and doing bad things.
So it's not about actually doing good or bad things it's what kind of person you actually are.
i've come to those conclusions after ALOT of reading and thinking.. and that was just brushing over my conclusions too.
I didn't just read the first bible/quran/torah that was handed to me and buy it word for word.
The meaning is deeper than that..... and THAT is where the trick is.
So does that mean i'm going to heaven? I don't know, I don't care, I'm atheist so I very much doubt that is the nature of the unvierse. But at least I understand the message behind religion.... that said i don't have to give it the time of day and worry about it any more....
I hope this gives a interesting (not too odd i hope) and different perspective, Truth.
I don't want to disappoint you, but this was the first conclusion people came to after Jesus died, and they founded the Gnostic sect. You just have to free your mind, be a good person, and the gods will be pleased... Why do you think Jesus had to die? Because it was necessary.
To borrow from one of the parables. If you didn't come to a feast when you were invited, what makes you think you will ever be "good enough" to arrive uninvited later?
There simply is no other God who has invited anybody to eternal life without checking your credentials first. If you don't respond to the invitation, dress up in your Sunday clothes (I love the irony), and arrive at the appointed time, you will find the doors closed when you get there. This isn't a threat, or a condemnation, or unfair. That's life (if you can excuse the pun).
Perceptions of reality past, present and future depend on the subscribed belief system. An individual is subscribed to a belief system she/he believes fully and doubts not. Percecptions of the afterlife depend on the subscribed belief system.
Although the Holy Bilbe New and Old Testaments are considered the word of God, some Books of the New Testament are omitted from Bibles specialized for some groups of God's worshippers. An example might be the Book of Revelations. In that Book, one sees that anyone not Christianized will go to Hell. That notion is belived by some and not all who hold God as their god because some Holy Bibles are specialized by omitting some Books of the Old or New Testament. For example, Jews use part of the Old Testament and none of the New Testament. To a Jew subscribed to Jewish religious beliefs, the New Testament is false. Therefore, you might get a different answer from a different flavor of religion.
Those who say it is okay to worship God any way one chooses to do so and then berates others for not worshipping as they do is a hypocritical individual with a power trip. Such self-centered individuals tend towards barbarism and can potentially end up in fights more often than those who value respect while immersed in a culturally diverse envrionment.
Oh, the answer to your desire to know what is right in regards to the afterlife, pick a belief system and believe it. It is up to you if you want to debate your newfound belief with anyone subscribed to other belief systems.
Hmm, if none of the pre-existing belief systems appeal to you, make up your own. You may either comprise it of portions of other systems or of your own unique concoctions. Registering your religion and converting converts can create considerable cash. If you are the only one administering your religion and a member of your group goes to prison, the freedom of religion rights for that prisoner means the State or Federal Government has to provide a Chaplan familiar with that prisoner's belief system. If you are it, you get a Chaplan job! Your pay may be less than that of Chaplan's with religious degrees.
GodLied
How many religions are you using in researching your notion that God is the only god who screens people to enter the equivalent of Heaven?
Did you even bother to consider Satanism where Satanists worship Satan as their god and commit murder in Satan's name to enter Hell? Have you never learned of those news stories about Satanists that wax a corpse' eyes open to keep them open for eternity? It has been on TV at least twice in my lifetime and I watch TV infrequently.
Your obvious belief centrism neglects the existence of other beliefs as well as complementary beliefs. Narrow mindedness like yours is why the original poster gets inconsistent answers to religious queries. Expand your mind by reading up on alternative beliefs before commenting against them. In doing so, you might convert to another belief system.
GodLied.
Capital punishment for John may be well deserved: He might have been the one who killed Hypatia, a female Egytian scholar familiar with the conic sections. Just because early Christians hated intelligence does not justify deaths of others in the name of God. .....remember the 10 commandments: thou shalt not kill...
GodLied
My error, the Christian fanatics that brutally murdered Hypatia of Alexandria was lead by Peter. They killed her because she was educated and influential. She taught mathematics and philosophy. Her texts were used to instruct the masses. Her common sense and respect from the public would have ended spread of Christianity amongst learned individuals had she not been murdered. Hypatia's assasination by Christian fanatics is my absolute disgust with Christianity.
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Hypatia.html
GodLied.
PS: the Holy Bible is not axiomatic: there is no consistent basis from which to construct the Holy Bible. That fundamental reality is why anyone of sound mind can form inconsistent decisions consistent with the Holy Bible.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
That childish casserole was no doubt the best you could do. Unfortunately, it did not answer the question.
You're a dishonest, superficial, and pathetically ignorant fraud, Jenyar-of-the-70-books, and your efforts to appear otherwise are laughable. But, by all means, feel free to try again:
- which stories were "already written down and available in Egypt" by 75 CE and what is the manuscript evidence?
You misread my sentence (probably because i didn't phrase it clearly:
"... invited anybody to eternal life without checking your credentials first" vs.
"...invited anybody to eternal life only after checking your credentials first"
Anyhow: Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
And Muslim fanatics flew into the WTC. Nothing prevents anybody from being fanatic over and above their moral obligations. How unfortunate the crimes of anyone - whether they called themselves Christian or not. I should point out that this Peter wasn't an apostle - no apostle could still be alive by 415CE. Her murderers will receive their punishment.
Socrates Scholasticus put it nicely: "This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort."
If someone doesn't believe in God or doesn't act like he believes in God, the Bible will not be "Holy" to him, and he will be able to permit himself any liberty.
If anybody calls himself Christian, he will have to be able to read this without squirming in his seat:
"Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men." (Titus 3)
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Er... excuse me, but since when does only extant manuscripts qualify? If a later manuscript can be dated to a certain period, then obviously it was available during that period.
Or shall we conclude that Plato was not available until 900CE, where we have the earliest extant manuscript of his work?
I'm not of those things, CA. If I'm laughable, then so be it.
I can only point out a few things here, and let you make your own decision:
1)Did Mark intend to expand on "Petrine theology", or to write about the life of Jesus?
2)Why should Peter feature, when the subject is Jesus?
3)Ditto Paul
4)A rose by any other name... Some manuscripts actually have the words "attributed to Mark" on them, indicating its later date, but its content speaks for itself.