skeptics - the inner workings

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spookz

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RAISING THE BAR (Or IMPOSSIBLE PERFECTION): This trick consists of demanding a new, higher and more difficult standard of evidence whenever it looks as if a skeptic's opponent is going to satisfy an old one. Often the skeptic doesn't make it clear exactly what the standards are in the first place. This can be especially effective if the skeptic can keep his opponent from noticing that he is continually changing his standard of evidence. That way, his opponent will eventually give up in complains, the skeptic can tag him as a whiner or a sore loser.

SOCK 'EM WITH OCCAM: Skeptics frequently invoke Occam's Razor as if the Razor automatically validates their position. Occam's Razor, a principle of epistemology (knowledge theory), states that the simplest explanation which fits all the facts is to be preferred -- or, to state it another way, entities are not to be multiplied needlessly. The Razor is a useful and even necessary principle, but it is largely useless if the facts themselves are not generally agreed upon in the first place.

EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS: Extraordinary claims, says the skeptic, require extraordinary evidence. Superficially this seems reasonable enough. However, extraordinariness, like beauty, is very much in the eye of the beholder. Some claims, of course, would seem extraordinary to almost anyone (e.g. the claim that aliens from Alpha Centauri had contacted you telepathically and informed you that the people of Earth must make you their absolute lord and ruler). The "extraordinariness" of many other claims, however, is at best arguable, and it is not at all obvious that unusually strong evidence is necessary to support them. For example, so many people who would ordinarily be considered reliable witnesses have reported precognitive dreams that it becomes difficult to insist these are "unusual" claims requiring "unusual" evidence. Quite ordinary standards of evidence will do.

STUPID, CRAZY LIARS: This trick consists of simple slander. Anyone who reports anything which displeases the skeptic will be accused of incompetence, mental illness or dishonesty, or some combination of the three without a single shred of fact to support the accusations.

THE SANTA CLAUS GAMBIT: This trick consists of lumping moderate claims or propositions together with extreme ones. If you suggest, for example, that Sasquatch can't be completely ruled out from the available evidence,the skeptic will then facetiously suggest that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny can't be "completely" ruled out either.

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF EVIDENCE: The skeptic insists that he doesn't have to provide evidence and arguments to support his side of the argument because he isn't asserting a claim, he is merely denying or doubting yours. His mistake consists of assuming that a negative claim (asserting that something doesn't exist) is fundamentally different from a positive claim. It isn't. Any definite claim, positive or negative, requires definite support. Merely refuting or arguing against an opponent's position is not enough to establish one's own position.. In other words, you can't win by default.

YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE: The skeptic may insist that he is relieved of the burden of evidence and argument because "you can't prove a negative." But you most certainly can prove a negative! When we know one thing to be true, then we also know that whatever flatly contradicts it is untrue. If I want to show my cat's not in the bedroom, I can prove this by showing that my cat's in the kitchen or outside chasing squirrels. The negative has then been proven. Or the proposition that the cat is not in the bedroom could be proven by giving the bedroom a good search without finding the cat. The skeptic who says, "Of course I can't prove psi doesn't exist. I don't have to. You can't prove a negative," is simply wrong. To rule something out, definite reasons must be given for ruling it out.

THE BIG LIE: The skeptic knows that most people will not have the time or inclination to check every claim he makes, so he knows it's a fairly small risk to tell a whopper. He might, for example, insist that none of the laboratory evidence for psi stands up to close scrutiny, or he might insist there have been no cases of UFO's being spotted by reliable observers such as trained military personnel when in fact there are well-documented cases. The average person isn't going to scamper right down to the library to verify this, so the skeptic knows a lot of people are going to accept his statement at face value. This ploy works best when the Big Lie is repeated often and loudly in a confident tone.

DOUBT CASTING: This trick consists of dwelling on minor or trivial flaws in the evidence, or presenting speculations as to how the evidence might be flawed as though mere speculation is somehow as damning as actual facts. The assumption here is that any flaw, trivial or even merely speculative, is necessarily fatal and provides sufficient grounds for throwing out the evidence. The skeptic often justifies this with the "extraordinary evidence" ploy.

THE SNEER: This gimmick is an inversion of "Stupid, Crazy Liars." In "Stupid, Crazy Liars," the skeptic attacks the character of those advocationg certain ideas or presenting information in the hope of discrediting the information. In "THE SNEER," the skeptic attempts to attach a stigma to some idea or claim and implies that anyone advocating that position must have something terribly wrong with him. "Anyone who believes we've been visited by extraterresrial aliens must be a lunatic, a fool, or a con man. If you believe this, you must a maniac, a simpleton or a fraud." The object here is to scare others away from a certain position without having to discuss facts. (d owens)

 
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ahh but thed look at this beaut. it was a sticky in phil until i pissed off the hormonal moderator over there

Fallacies - A Reference

so ahh, feeling defensive? what am i to make of the pejorative... "woo woo"?

oh i know! lets refer to...

THE SNEER: "Anyone who believes we've been visited by extraterrestrial aliens must be a lunatic, a fool, or a con man. If you believe this, you must a maniac, a simpleton or a fraud." The object here is to scare others away from a certain position without having to discuss facts.
 
Part of this peaked my interest:
"He might, for example, insist that none of the laboratory evidence for psi stands up to close scrutiny"

Does such evidence actually exist?
 
moe
aint my work

persol
it should be ""overwhelming evidence". anyway if it did i would be insufferable!:D

here is the link to owens article originally posted on usenet in 98
 
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a typical psi scenario

Skeptic: I am willing to consider the psi hypothesis if you will
only show me some sound evidence.

Opponent: There are many thousands of documented reports of
incidents that seem to involve psi.

S: That is only anecdotal evidence. You must give me laboratory
evidence.

0: Researchers A-Z have conducted experiments that produced
results which favor the psi hypothesis.

S: Those experiments are not acceptable because of flaws X,Y and
Z.

0: Researchers B-H and T-W have conducted experiments producing
positive results which did not have flaws X,Y and Z.

S: The positive results are not far enough above chance levels
to be truly interesting.

0: Researchers C-F and U-V produced results well above chance
levels.

S: Their results were achieved through meta-analysis, which is a
highly questionable technique.

O: Meta-analysis is a well-accepted method commonly used in
psychology and sociology.

S: Psychology and sociology are social sciences, and their
methods can't be considered as reliable as those of hard sciences
such as physics and chemistry.

Etc., etc. ad nauseum.
(owens)
 
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Ok, this is starting to get off topic, so it'll be my last post. If you want to continue in another post I'd be happy to.

Part of the issue seems to be that psi proponents claim certain things are possible. These individuals also claim that it is reproducible. Testing these people against a random control group should show a difference.

I'm assuming tests such as moving objects (what I usually see as psi) or knowing specific things (IE: cards, simple pictures, colors)

If the 'psi capable group' does signifigantly better (as determined by statistics) than the control group, then something exists. Otherwise it doesn't.

If you claim all people have this ability, and it is not 'practicable' (IE: you can't get better), then it doesn't really matter... because we can't observe or trust it.
 
No, I know you didn't come up with this information yourself,but you did post it.
I should have said....good surfing,copying,applying and posting.:)
Just can't take a compliment eh?:D
 
Nice post, spookz.

Skeptics must be wary of falling into the trap of making the types of responses you quote in your first post.

None of those things makes any difference at all to the question of whether aliens or ESP exist, of course.
 
Originally posted by spookz
RAISING THE BAR (Or IMPOSSIBLE PERFECTION): ... Often the skeptic doesn't make it clear exactly what the standards are in the first place. This can be especially effective if the skeptic can keep his opponent from noticing that he is continually changing his standard of evidence.

It is true, however, that one who is initially skeptical of a claim becomes more educated in the field as the debate wears on, particularly with on-line debates that last days, even months. I remember a couple of years ago, as I was debating creation -v- evolution, this occured. I learned a bit more about genetic processes, DNA, natural selection, etc. My arguments "evolved" as well.

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF EVIDENCE: The skeptic insists that he doesn't have to provide evidence and arguments to support his side of the argument ...

Of course, in ad hoc debates, such as those where someone makes an extraordinary claim in a public fashion, the residence of burden of proof is clear. Still, a good skeptic will provide evidence that counters the claims. Or at least ask appropriate questions to validate the claimant's evidence, which walks the line of Doubt Casting, depending on the evidentiary flaws.

All important information for the skeptic to understand in order to maintain credibility. It's easy to go too far in criticizing a claim like, "I was abducted by aliens and they gave me a message" (I've always wondered why those that make that claim are always those who we are least likely to listen to).

Good post Spookz
 
jamesr

the answer being resounding yes!
(we dont need no stinking evidence)
 
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Skeptics and Naysayers

From Webster’s new world dictionary:

Skeptic: a person who habitually doubts, questions, or suspends judgment upon matters generally accepted

Naysayer: one who opposes, refuses, or denies, esp. habitually

Skeptics - there's nothing wrong with being a skeptic, it’s okay to 'suspend your judgment' on matters, which exceed your ability to collect information on. One can always remain neutral.

Naysayers on the other hand, are locked into a 'click-whirr' mode, habitually firing off the same denials and personal attacks regardless of what they encounter; typically that which may appear contrary to the norm.
 
Webster's has a bad definition of "skeptic". Scrub the words "upon matters generally accepted" and it is ok.
 
Or you can accept:


Skep"tic\, n. [Gr. skeptiko`s thoughtful, reflective, fr. ske`ptesqai to look carefully or about, to view, consider: cf. L. scepticus, F. sceptique. Written also sceptic.] 1. One who is yet undecided as to what is true; one who is looking or inquiring for what is true; an inquirer after facts or reasons.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
 
one who holds that there are no adequate grounds for certainty as to the truth of any proposition (oed)

:D
 
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Or you can accept:


Skep"tic\, n. [Gr. skeptiko`s thoughtful, reflective, fr. ske`ptesqai to look carefully or about, to view, consider: cf. L. scepticus, F. sceptique. Written also sceptic.] 1. One who is yet undecided as to what is true; one who is looking or inquiring for what is true; an inquirer after facts or reasons.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

To my way of thinking, that seems to be a better definition - being a skeptic may be the best point/reference-point to maintain.
 
anyway

i rant in another thread: occam is for dullards and simpletons

to which sir Mojo Loren replies: You cannot get more efficient than the processes of causality and occams razor is simply a tool that can be used or abused like any other to get our models to the level of efficiency of causality.

decent answer. interest is piqued so i google....

Occam's not-so-sharp razor

Occam's razor is so overrated. First of all, it's not some absolute self-evident first principle of reason that must be slavishly adhered to in any and everything. Second, it's too general to really have any meaning in the context of an argument. Third, while it may be a good guide in some circumstances, there are plenty of exceptions, too many for it to really have any power in an argument. Fourth, it's just way too easy for anyone to use it for their own purpose, both sides of an argument could think of countless ways to use it for their own ends. For these and similar reasons I propose that it be put to rest forever as an instrument of debate.
(theist at noumena1@hotmail.com)


maybe i should edit his handle out

The modern interpretation of Occam's razor has been characterized as ``of two hypotheses H and H, both of which explain E, the simpler is to be preferred'' [Good, 1977]. However, this does not specify what aspect of a theory should be measured for simplicity. Syntactic, semantic, epistemological and pragmatic simplicity are all alternative criteria that can and have been employed

Further Experimental Evidence against the Utility of Occam's Razor


the contents in the link appear to be dealing with a specific issue (machine intelligence) can the criticism be applied in a general manner? what the hell are they on about? a simple synopsis would be appreciated
 
Skeptics: People who like believers waste their time arguing and gossiping while they could do something else more constructive.Perhaps work and earn some?

So Join Computer Science Forums rather than Posting at pseudoscience,unless you just retired.(No Offence!)Feel like George Malley Already.;)
gee...

bye!
 
We can add Zion's post as yet another ploy I have seen "skeptics" employ which is: "I don't have time for this." Basically, the disbeliever states that the entire subject is beneath their notice and not worth any kind of consideration. Thus, anyone talking about UFO's, ect. must be engaging in something nonproductive and nesassarily pointless.

It's another variation of Spook's The Sneer tactic.
 
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