Skeptics please help.

There never was a proof about aliens. A lot of people are faking the whole 'abduction' thing. It's the way to get attention. Attention=money. It's unbelieveable, what your mind can do to you, when you really believe. Let's say, you want to see UFO soooo badly, that in the end, you really think you saw them, but actually it was just a plane, or nothing. It's kinda like that Christ's wounds. No body knows how, but they just happen. I think it's because people believe in Christ so much, that they feel his pain when they pray. Mind's a tricky thing, boys and girls.

About UFO existence... there are more than one universes... the whole thing is sooooo big you can't even imagine. I'm sure there are beings somewhere far far away. But they will never look like us, wether they are more developed, or less. The evolution didn't begin at the same time... there are different time zones. ah.. i don't know what i'm saying..
all in all... there are a little to no chances that aliens will visit us.
 
Hi Straw.
I myself had never wanted to see "U.F.O.'s so bad.
I had alot of other things on my mind that I wanted way more than that.However,I never saw beutiful naked women walking around my bedroom in some dellusion.

Also,they're was 2 of us that saw them,broad daylight,not that far away.Easily definable.If you want my full description go to "Have you seen U.F.O.'s" thread.

The tricky thing about getting all subjective is that it can easily go the other way as well.
Someone might see an alien space craft but not want to beleive it and see an airplane instead,or simply not see anything.
Because like you say the mind can be tricky in this way.

I believe simple denial is at the root of a lot of problems on this topic and alot of other important topics.
It's so easy to rationalize to yourself why you do what you do,or why you beleive what you beleive.
Espeacially if your own comfort is at stake.

I see it more and more now.It seems like alot more people just want people to beleive what they beleive.
Beleivers and skeptics alike.

As for skeptics saying that they're has not been enough proof for there to actually be such a thing as UFOs,what they are saying is that THEY have not seen enough evidence to believe in UFOs.
Thats fine.

That is the difference between the majority of posts with this subject.Most of the posts on UFOs are just generally sharing information on the subject,not pushing this information on anyone else,not trying to make anyone else change they're mind or make them "Believe".Just sharing info with those of like mind.
That goes for myself anyways.

However most skeptics come on with more of an agressive form of communication.Talking about the improbabilty,and unlikelyhood of such penomenon to exist,but then will always end up saying thatt here is that small possibility however small,and that they do believe in the existence of other life out there somewhere.

Espeacilly when they try and stay all logical about it.
Coming to a logical conclusion does not mean that it is ever over.
It is always open ended.
That they're is the possibilty that new evidence will come to light and there for change the verdict.
Conclusions can only be put on hold.
So if you are a logical,scientific skeptic,
then your statements of "I don't believe"
in the light of objectivity would be put"I do not believe ..yet."
You may act on your validations of non-beleif,but holding them as the end all and be all of conclusions is wrong.

Since you can not prove that they do not exist,you can only affirm that you yourself have not come across enough evidence to believe it yourself....yet.

Stating anything that even remotely cuts off any and all possibilty of alien existence is to admit your own prejudice for what ever personal reasons.
Again"Abscence of evidence,is not evidence of abscence".

That is a shame that because of a number of liars and perhaps true crackpots,that you label all who make statements on UFO's as the being the same.

Theyre are alot of good people out there that have experienced this weird phenomenon in many different ways,and to instantly convict them as guilty before proven innocent is unfortunately a habit that is easily formed.

Anyways this thread has gone on too long.
Peace Out:)
 
Momentum7, you've nailed on the head something I have been trying to say in this forum for some time now. I congradulate you one applying a MAJOR scientific philosophy: that knowledge is fleeting and conclusions are never final, in a pro UFO post.

Good post :) More like this and the believers are going to make the skeptics flinch.
 
Originally posted by Xevious
Momentum7... something I have been trying to say in this forum for some time now... knowledge is fleeting and conclusions are never final.
Click to expand...

Haven't I been saying that all along!? :D

Although, I probably wouldn't have used "fleeting." Knowledge is durable and can be built upon.
 
Knowledge can also collapse like a house of cards if you find the Achillies heal.
 
Originally posted by Xevious
Knowledge can also collapse like a house of cards if you find the Achillies heal.
Click to expand...

And well it should if it was built as a "house of cards." Poor science, indeed! ;)

The myth of the Moundbuilders is a wonderful example.
 
RE: Straw

I'm sure there are beings somewhere far far away. But they will never look like us, wether they are more developed, or less. The evolution didn't begin at the same time... there are different time zones. ah.. i don't know what i'm saying..
Click to expand...

Unless......... we are their responsibility, relations, or conected to them in whatever way.
 
I am also grateful for Skinwalkers presence and the way he presents himself.
I actually thought of this today at work.
He could just be another person who responds all to often with comments like"you guys are crazy" or something profound like that.
I am very grateful for your level of maturity in this dicussion Skinwalker.;)
:)
Peace Out
 
There is also the Fermi paradox that's a real problem.

The Fermi paradox says that ETs do not exist, because otherwise the Earth would have been colonized many times in the past, and there is no proof of that.

In fact, some scientists, using Drake's equations, have suggested that the Earth should have been colonized 20000 times.

There are 3 possibilities:
- ETs do not exist
- ETs do exist - Drake's equation- and ETs do not come here for whatever reason. That reason must be EXTREMELY strong to explain that the Earth has never been colonized, not even ONCE. The hypothesis that they are not interested in colonization is very unlikely, because WE, the only species that we know for sure, are interested in it. We spend enormous amout of money and effort for space exploration and many people are interested in astronomy, etc. So the only reason would be that space travel is simply impossible.
- ETs do go to other planets, but never colonize them. That's more in accordance with the UFO/abduction stories.


Let's have a look at the 3rd possiblity, since the 2 first are rather straightforward.

First of all, if the 3rd explanation is right, the ETs behave completly differently from how we would. That's an important point. All of these species do exactly the opposite from what we want to do -that is explore other planets-. And that over billions and billions of years, with potentialy millions of species. That is simply impossible. The only solution that I see is that all these species follow some kind of rules that PREVENT them very strictly to interact with other planets. Rules mean order. That suggests that there is a form of intergalallictic community or whatever that enforces some kind of laws very strictly.

Now here is a problem. WE want to colonize other planets. We have colonized every peace of land on Earth. We are as "invasive" species. WILL THEY LET US DO SOMETHING THAT IS FORBIDDEN, THAT HAS BEEN FORBIDDEN FOR BILLIONS OF YEARS? Probably not. If they did, we can say that the Earth, indirectly, would have been colonized in the past by another species in the same situation.

Now here comes the UFO/abduction stories. Let us say for a minute that it is true. Let's take the Hopkins/Jacobs theory. These 2 guys seem to me to be the best investigators. Hopkins has studied 800 abductees and done 2200 hypnosis sessions. Jacobs has worked with 200 abductees and done 1000 sessions. These 2 guys work closely together, use the same hypnosis technique and find the same results.

What do they say? They say that the aliens, in complete secrecy are doing something to us that we don't like. They DO NOT BEHAVE THE WAY WE WOULD EXPECT. They raise a race of hybrids that may possibly replace us here. The aliens are often talking about a change in the future, and suggest that the hybrids are the future.

Let's continue with their hypothesis. All of the aliens species that come here are all working together for the abduction program. This suggests that they belong to the same order, society or whatever, which is in accordance to the theory of "super-civilization" I was talking about before.

ALL of the species involved - the Greys, the reptilians and the insectoids- have the same mental characteristics : psy characterics - telepathy, telekinesis, mind control-. Interesting is to note that the hybrids also have aquired these characteristics. That suggests that all of these species may have aquired these characterics in the past throught the same process of artificial genetic manipulation. You will note that NO species on Earth, in the 1 billion species that have existed so far over 3.8 billion years, has ever aquired such characteristics by natural selection. This suggests that the only way to aquire them is by genetic manipulation, and that it is possible that all the emerging intelligent species go through the same process to be able to sort of "fit" in that "super-civilization-.


So here is how the theory goes. UFOs do exist. The Aliens all belong to the same society and come here to "standardize the human species", so that it can fit their society and follow the rules without problem. It seems that these hybrids do not have extreme behaviors like us. They are less aggressive. And they are WITH THE ALIENS, not with us. They also perform abductions and so forth. They are on the same wavelength as the 3 other species. THEY will follow the "intergalactic laws". THEY will not cause problems all the time. THE PEACE AND ORDER WILL BE KEPT WITH THEM over millions of years.


Could the 3rd hypothesis be possible? For that it takes several things:
- Some ET species must have appeared in the first place, billions of years ago. The Drake's equation says it is highly probable.
- Space travel, even with relatively crude technology - much slower than the speed of light- , must be possible. That is not impossible at all. The timeframes involved take care of the distance problem.
- These super-civilization would have been created billions of years ago, and never have collapsed. This take a perfect order. no kidding at all. For that, the only way is that the individuals be almost robots and be controllable. A species that has appeared through natural selection simply cannot belong to such a society. Artificial evolution is absolutely required. We're talking here about billions of years, not thousands. There is no room for error. Every species must be "tuned" very precisely.


I personaly think the 3rd hypothesis is not impossible. UFOs do seem to exist. Abductions seem to be real. And what seems to take place within the abduction phenomenon seem in fact to lead to a logical theory. What is the likelyhood that it is just by chance?
 
Originally posted by nick666
There is also the Fermi paradox that's a real problem.

The Fermi paradox says that ETs do not exist, because otherwise the Earth would have been colonized many times in the past, and there is no proof of that.

In fact, some scientists, using Drake's equations, have suggested that the Earth should have been colonized 20000 times.
Click to expand...

Refuting Fermi: No Evidence for Extraterrestrial Life?
John B. Alexander
National Institute for Discovery Science
In a recent article, Seth Shostak drew attention to what has become known as the Fermi Paradox.1
Typically discussants raise the famous off-hand luncheon comment by Enrico Fermi, “Where is
everybody?” when dismissing the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. The invocation of such a
distinguished figure is polemic and used to make the position academically unassailable. In the ranks
of scientific loyalists there is a constant refrain pertaining to the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial
life. Best phrased by Carl Sagan, known for his “billions and billions” quotation in developing the
hypothesis that we share the universe with other forms of intelligence, he added “but there is not one
shred of evidence to support it.” Really? Actually, the book he co-edited with Thornton Page, UFOs:
A Scientific Debate, refutes his own statement.2 The deductive error is conflation of lack of evidence
with proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Click to expand...

http://216.128.67.116/pdf/fermi.pdf
 
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