Should we use data of Nazi's human experiences?

[Prince_James]

Baron Max:

Well spoken.

Leopold99:

As Baron Max pointed out, many men were quite courageous before and on the death march. However, the able-bodied men which were not encumbered by needing to aid allies and friends should have plotted to do what they could to stop the Japanese. That they didn't isn't a true mark of cowardice, but eventually you're going to have to fight them after the march anyway. They may have been able to have used their numeric superiority to do many things, despite their weakness. Again, it was only a minor oversight.

However, let us not misconstrue me as saying that suicide attacks are the only possible way to fight back. A well planned and clever prison insurrection which doe snot include throwing one's life away is just as proper as one which does. One needn't seek death - just simply not fear it. And when the time comes to fight and die, instead of live in shame, one must be able to choose death.

Ironically, in World War II, it would be rather "Japanese" for American, British, and Australian to have done such. In so much as that sentiment was shared and supported widely amongst the Japanese.

Moreover, as Baron Max pointed out, the internment of Japanese citizens in the United States was significantly different from the Jews in the Germany. If, however, the Japanese were to be treated as horrible as the Jews were, I would morally have supported a widescale insurrection by Japanese citizens.

 

[spidergoat]

Except the Jews in Germany had no way of knowing that they weren't going to be treated like the Japanese were.

 

[leopold]

Baron Max:

Well spoken.

Leopold99:

As Baron Max pointed out, many men were quite courageous before and on the death march.

that's why they were there in the first place cause they were brave enough not to be taken prisoner.

However, the able-bodied men which were not encumbered by needing to aid allies and friends should have plotted to do what they could to stop the Japanese.

of course! the 1000's of marchers were no match for the handful of japanese gaurding them.

They may have been able to have used their numeric superiority to do many things, despite their weakness. Again, it was only a minor oversight.

you make lame excuses for americans but can't for jews?

 

[leopold]

Ah.
Found it.
The Lebensborn.

there is a documentary called "why we fight" that mentions this very subjct.
the name wasn't mentioned but the mechanics of it was.

 

[Prince_James]

Spidergoat:

Consider the conditions of the Jews in Germany and the exclaimed hatred of the Jews by Nazi leaders on all levels and in public. The party platform of Nazism included "Jews are degenerated race of inferiors".

Leopold99:

I'd personally believe the Americans should have bit the bullet and taken on the Japanese when capable. Many were all ready infected by disease and injured, though. And those were being attended to.

 

[leopold]

I'd personally believe the Americans should have bit the bullet and taken on the Japanese when capable. Many were all ready infected by disease and injured, though. And those were being attended to.

like i said. . .

 

[madanthonywayne]

Roman, Leopold99:
The fact of the matter is this: The Jews never did a substantial thing to resist the Nazi slaughter. This is the single worse instance of cowardice in the history of man. According, these "victims" deserve no recognition, because they did nothing but get tortured.

Have you heard of Sobibor?

Sobibor - The Forgotten Revolt
Selected material by Thomas Toivi Blatt.

The facts presented on this website are the Historical research and first-hand account of Holocaust survivor Thomas 'Toivi' Blatt, who escaped from the Nazi death camp Sobibor during the prisoner-led Revolt on October 14, 1943. The Sobibor revolt was the most successful revolt and escape from any Nazi camp during World War II. In his search for the truth about Sobibor, Mr. Blatt has extensively researched, investigated and written about its history - the results of which are also presented in two extraordinary books Sobibor - The Forgotten Revolt and From The Ashes of Sobibor. Additionally, the story of the revolt was told in Escape From Sobibor, the award-winning Chrysler Corporation film special of 1987. http://www.sobibor.info/

Some Jews did fight back. Like you, I have often wondered why more didn't. But hey, look at September 11. Everyone of those planes was commandeered by four guys with box cutters.

All of the planes could have been stopped had the passengers realized what was happening and taken action. But those weren't the rules. When a plane was hijacked, you sat there and did what you were told and waited to be released.

Finally, the passengers on flight 93 did take action, or least enough of them to keep the terrorists from completing their mission.

Think about the Jews in the same way. The government ordered them to report to such and such a place. Many of them probably didn't believe what was happening even as they were being gassed. They were following the rules, just like all the people on the planes that crashed into the world trade center and the pentagon. A few, like the heros on flight 93, did revolt. Sobibor is the story of one such place, and it was the most successful.

 

[Prince_James]

MadAnthonyWayne:

Thanks for sharing, but I've all ready conceded two instances of Jewish bravery: The Warsaw Ghetto and Sobibor. However, the point still stands that the vast majority of Jews were villainous cowards who lead themselves to the slaughter like pigs. THey truly had neither honour nor a sense of shame and they paid the price.

And yes, I fully realize that bravery is not common. This is what is disgusting and what I fight agaisnt in principle. It's disgusting to say the least.

 

[madanthonywayne]

MadAnthonyWayne:

Thanks for sharing, but I've all ready conceded two instances of Jewish bravery: The Warsaw Ghetto and Sobibor. However, the point still stands that the vast majority of Jews were villainous cowards who lead themselves to the slaughter like pigs. THey truly had neither honour nor a sense of shame and they paid the price.

And yes, I fully realize that bravery is not common. This is what is disgusting and what I fight agaisnt in principle. It's disgusting to say the least.

Yeah, well, I didn't page thru all the pages before replying to what you had said. I think you're being way too harsh on the Jews. Yes, they should have fought back more. But damn it, to call them villainous cowards. That crosses the line. Villianous? Many were women and children, don't forget. Is a child a villainous coward for not resisting a Nazi storm trooper? An old lady? An old man?

Even the able bodied men, would you attack a soldier when unarmed and with your entire family standing by your side?

Again, I find the lack of resistance somewhat incomprehensible. But I give the victims the benefit of the doubt. Many people, when they look evil in the face, simply don't believe their eyes. Look at the response of most of the West to the war on terror. The mainstream media minimizes the threat posed by Islamofascism and will keep doing so until they find themselves dying of radiation poisoning following a dirty bomb attack.

It's human nature. Trashing the Jews over it is unfair. It's easy to look back and say you'd have fought to the death rather than be gassed like a dog. But unless you were there, who really knows.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

It's disgusting to say the least.

Well, y'finally got seem to have gotten at least one thing the right way round about this discussion - frightful shame it isn't about what you think it is, really....

However, the point still stands that the vast majority of Jews were villainous cowards

James, this is just pure antisemitism you're displaying here - nothing to do with logic, or reason or indeed, an interest in truth - you just manifestly have some sort of bug up your arse about Jews and that is simply all of your viewpoint here.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I think Prince James makes a valid point. Many Jews living under the Nazi regime didn't actually believe they were headed for extermination. There were those who were prepared to fight, those who believed Germany too civilized and the regime would change. Just think many German Jews were not religious and believed themselves to be German first and foremost, they believed they were integrated and the bleak reality didn't seep into their minds until it was too late. Yes their passivity was their downfall which explains the aggressive nature of the Israeli government in regards to the Palestinian people. Its a 'never us again' mentality and their is no worse predator than a former victim; the same is momentarily true of the Palestinians who are willing to fight and die than live under oppression. Jews are so paranoid based on their history that they refuse to ever be victims again.

Dying while defending oneself is an honorable death. No one respects lambs.

*No christian martyrs should take offence but no apology offered to the lamb on the cross*

 

[leopold]

Have you heard of Sobibor?
Some Jews did fight back. Like you, I have often wondered why more didn't. But hey, look at September 11. Everyone of those planes was commandeered by four guys with box cutters.
All of the planes could have been stopped had the passengers realized what was happening and taken action. But those weren't the rules. When a plane was hijacked, you sat there and did what you were told and waited to be released.
Finally, the passengers on flight 93 did take action, or least enough of them to keep the terrorists from completing their mission.

what about this james?
just think how many innocent lives would have been save if the AMERICAN COWARDS acted.
or are you going to come up with more lame ass excuses?

 

[Prince_James]

MadAnthonyWayne:

Many were women and children, don't forget.

I was speaking of Jewish men specifically. I'll let the children and the women off the hook. No one can expect either to stand up for themselves.

Is a child a villainous coward for not resisting a Nazi storm trooper? An old lady? An old man?

No. I'll freely amend my statement to:

The Jewish men - let's say, about half the victims of the Holocaust - are villainous cowards.

Even the able bodied men, would you attack a soldier when unarmed and with your entire family standing by your side?

When the alternative is to have my family and myself slowly, starved, and subjected to bizarre experimentation and otherwise abused? Yes. I would also consider killing my family.

Many people, when they look evil in the face, simply don't believe their eyes. Look at the response of most of the West to the war on terror. The mainstream media minimizes the threat posed by Islamofascism and will keep doing so until they find themselves dying of radiation poisoning following a dirty bomb attack.

I will admit that it is human nature to be a coward, but I will not admit that this is good.

Mr. Anonymous:

James, this is just pure antisemitism you're displaying here - nothing to do with logic, or reason or indeed, an interest in truth - you just manifestly have some sort of bug up your arse about Jews and that is simply all of your viewpoint here.

I am not anti-Jewish in the least. In fact, I live in New York City, specifically, in a mix neighbourhood with a huge LEsbian/Gay, WASP, and Jewish (non-Orthodox/Hassidic) population.

The fact of the matter is this: The Nazis victimized the Jews. The Jews then did nothing at all, but let themselves be slaughtered. They stood around whilst they were made into animals. What sort of people allows this? What sort of depraved men do not even lift a hand against their tormentors? What sort of men let their children, wives, and their parents massacred? Cowards. -Villainous- cowards. If there was a larger amount of anti-Nazi Jewish resistance, the Holocaust would either have seen a significant reduction in overall Jewish death tolls, or at least they would have died with honour.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If there is a Hell, it is filled with millions of Jewish villains for their cowardice.

Leopold99:

As I've said on Russian television once (I was interviewed at some place): The people on the 9-11 planes were cowards which didn't fight back. However, the Flight 93 people who fought back? Heroes beyond compare in recent American history. I salute them.

The people who didn't fight back on 9-11 are sitting in Hell right next to the Jews who didn't fight back in the Holocaust, if there is any justice in this world.

 

[leopold]

but alas they were never tortured either.

like i said. . .

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I am not anti-Jewish in the least...

.... Are you not, now.... Let's review and consider here, shall we?

Previously, when the following was put to you: "However, you've never in your life been put in a situation where your daughter could be hung or shot for your act of rebellion right in front of your eyes." You're only response to that was, and I quote:

I would kill her myself if need be.

Clearly, by whatever process it is you believe yourself to be approaching this, you are in no way, shape or form approaching this particular subject in anyway realistically, let alone rationally.

Moreover, throughout the entire course of this discussion you have never so much as once acknowledge that what we are in actual fact dealing with here is the mass, wholesale murder of innocent, unarmed, non-combatant civilians - first, last and throughout, as far as your perception of what is simply historical fact remains concerned - these people were simply Jews first, human beings hardly at all as far as you disclose being concerned.

You judge the victims guilty, exclusively - of the criminals actually responsible you pass no condemnation whatsoever: "villainous cowards" remains your only assessment of the victims here.

By what either right or authority do you remain in anyway qualified to pass judgement here, James? You've patently never been involved in an armed conflict, certainly I'll wager never been held in a hostage situation - yet you seem to consider it as if some form of either obligation or duty for other human beings to die.

No human being ever born has any such encumberment placed upon them James - only Soldiers are so charged to lay down their lives for their Countries. It's the State's responsibility to protect it's civilian populations - not round them up at gun point for processing and execution.

But you disclose no recognition of these souls as being those of human beings, James - only of them as being Jews.

Instead, you try to dress this up as some form of noble principal concerning what you consider to be "honour", "courage", "bravery" - and yet you don't even have to guts to admit - anonymously to a bunch of strangers on the internet whose eye's you'll never in your life have to look into - what you are here. Honestly. Openly. Truthfully

Whatever the Jews went through James, they did so at rifle and bayonet point.

You judge them villainous cowards - you yourself aren't at the point of any gun here, James. And yet you haven't even got the guts to admit you simply dismiss these people because you can because they were Jews.

And you actually have the gall to judge other people cowards...

In 1946, shortly after the end of the War, the British handed over captured Liensk Cossacks back over to the Russians. You want to know about fighting men, James? These were about as ruthless a bunch as you could ever hope to meet - land pirates, bandits, dyed-in-the-wool killers every last one - they fought on the side of the Nazi's because, despite not deeming the Germans actually worth pissing on were one on fire, they really didn't like Stalin one little bit.

Ruthless, remorseless - they were the stuff of legend throughout the Russia's -generation of after generation of proud, fiercely independent people subject to no authority other than that of their own. These were a people bred to take what they wanted and take prisoners only for their hostage value. Fighting, brawling, pillaging - it was their way of life, their heritage, their faith.

Every last man jack of them was shot. Their wives and children also, just to make sure.

They knew what fate awaited them before the British handed them over. as too the British, for that matter. These were men who knew no other way than to fight yet they too were slaughtered worse than animals - y'know why?

They had no other choice. Their hands were literally tied.

Cowards, everyone by your definition. Or perhaps not. After all, it wasn't like they were Jews or anything, right...?

 

[Prince_James]

Mr. Anonymous:

Clearly, by whatever process it is you believe yourself to be approaching this, you are in no way, shape or form approaching this particular subject in anyway realistically, let alone rationally.

Actually, you will note this approach was taken by the Mossada Zealots, for whom the Israeli secret service are named after. When the fortress was going to be overtaken by the Romans, they killed their wives and children, then killed eachother, and the last person alive killed himself.

Re: Nazi crimes:

I don't feel I have to reaffirm Nazi evil here. It is held that the Nazis did some really bad things, to say the least. Unless we need some historical record where Prince James has affirmed the Nazis did the Jews dirty...

By what either right or authority do you remain in anyway qualified to pass judgement here, James? You've patently never been involved in an armed conflict, certainly I'll wager never been held in a hostage situation - yet you seem to consider it as if some form of either obligation or duty for other human beings to die.

I've never had anything stolen, or been subjected to someone trying to murder or rape me. I nonetheless pass moral judgement against these acts. One needn't be part of an armed conflict nor a hostage situation.

However, I'd hope my views would hold me through those situations well.

When I have, in the past, been faced with "bravery v. cowardice", the majority of the times - indeed, I'd say almost exclusively - I have stepped up to the plate.

No human being ever born has any such encumberment placed upon them James - only Soldiers are so charged to lay down their lives for their Countries. It's the State's responsibility to protect it's civilian populations - not round them up at gun point for processing and execution.

Actually, I'd argue it is the duty of every man (and I do mean every man - not women or children) to act heroically in such situations. The State has the duty first and foremost, but when the state fails, it is the moral obligation of every man to do what is right.

But you disclose no recognition of these souls as being those of human beings, James - only of them as being Jews.

They are human beings. I do not find evil human beings much worth anything, though. And I declare that the cowardly Jewish men who didn't participate in anti-Nazi efforts are evil.

Whatever the Jews went through James, they did so at rifle and bayonet point.

Cowardice is not made less an evil by coercion.

You judge them villainous cowards - you yourself aren't at the point of any gun here, James. And yet you haven't even got the guts to admit you simply dismiss these people because you can because they were Jews.

As I've said before: I live in a neighbourhood filled with Jews. I live peacefully with them and harbour no ill will. Moreover, you will not find me having said "kike" or "Jew boy" or any other saying here.

In 1946, shortly after the end of the War, the British handed over captured Liensk Cossacks back over to the Russians. You want to know about fighting men, James? These were about as ruthless a bunch as you could ever hope to meet - land pirates, bandits, dyed-in-the-wool killers every last one - they fought on the side of the Nazi's because, despite not deeming the Germans actually worth pissing on were one on fire, they really didn't like Stalin one little bit.

Ruthless, remorseless - they were the stuff of legend throughout the Russia's -generation of after generation of proud, fiercely independent people subject to no authority other than that of their own. These were a people bred to take what they wanted and take prisoners only for their hostage value. Fighting, brawling, pillaging - it was their way of life, their heritage, their faith.

Every last man jack of them was shot. Their wives and children also, just to make sure.

They knew what fate awaited them before the British handed them over. as too the British, for that matter. These were men who knew no other way than to fight yet they too were slaughtered worse than animals - y'know why?

They had no other choice. Their hands were literally tied.

Cowards, everyone by your definition. Or perhaps not. After all, it wasn't like they were Jews or anything, right...?

Why did they decide not to fight? I am actually unaware of the situation regarding the Cossack slaughter. I know of them, but never investigated it further

 

[leopold]

i'm sure gen. wainright will appreciate you calling him a coward.
what about gen. douglas macarthur? he ran!
and the british at dunkirk? why didn't they fight to the death? they cowards too?

and the best of all the japanese.
they laid down their arms and surrendered.
are you going to say they are cowards too?

 

[Prince_James]

The Japanese were cowardly at the end of the war, yes. They let their government be disposed and occupied until the present day. This is the essence of cowardice.

Tactical retreats on the other hand, are not bad.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

As I've said before: I live in a neighbourhood filled with Jews. I live peacefully with them and harbour no ill will. Moreover, you will not find me having said "kike" or "Jew boy" or any other saying here.

.... Well no, old man. That's perfectly true. But you haven't at any point actually gone as far as to say that you like Jews. If you'll forgive the observation - previously, when I put forward that you were arguing from a view point of antisemitism, you refuted the allegation singularly, thus:

I am not anti-Jewish in the least. In fact, I live in New York City, specifically, in a mix neighbourhood with a huge LEsbian/Gay, WASP, and Jewish (non-Orthodox/Hassidic) population.

And reiterate similarly the same in your last.

It's a somewhat interesting choice of phrase don't y'think, James? Most people when accused of something they themselves consider either untoward or, at the very least, morally repugnant, usually bluster with indignation at the very preposterousness of the allegation - they protest the claim, especially if they themselves genuinely consider themselves not in the slightest guilty or in anyway unfairly charged...

You however merely state the matter in terms of your geographical location.

Being as we both, and I'd wager generally anyone familiar with your particular style of posting would be more than merely familiar - when it comes to giving considered answers, you're very much a fellow characterised by you yourself being somewhat of the habitual disposition of measuring twice, cutting once when coming to an answer.

And, as such, your answer remains somewhat telling.

You allude to having no close personal relationships with anyone of Jewish birthright. No acquaintances. No social interaction - only in so far as you live in a neighbourhood with diverse cultural and religious ethnicallity...

Not even so much as "Why no, Mr Anonymous. I think you'll find I eat bagels all the time!"

Nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

Which, and you'll forgive the observations of someone only an infrequent visitor to your fine city - but personally I'd've though it nigh on impossible to reside there and not strike up an acquaintance at the very least with at least one person with a Jewish background. I my self remain in frequent, if not for periods regular, contact with individuals hailing from your neck of the woods I equally know to be Jewish - saves a fortune on Christmas cards each year.... Oi vey!

And, as I say, I only make around half a dozen trips a year.

But you actually live there, and all you have to say is that you're aware that they are around. Which isn't to say that you like them really, is it James? You say that you bear them no ill - but equally, and given your attitudes as displayed throughout this topic - were some calamity to be fall them all, that is not to say, equally, that you would be inclinded to care.

Indeed, as you have pointed out - you haven't used words like Jew boys and kikes - but as you're equally aware in phrasing the sentence that way - this isn't to say that you don't think of them in those terms...

But then again, you deliberately couch the sentence precisely to convey that, don't you James? Going all out Billy-Bob Redneck about it, not your style.

But no denials either. Not a one.

Why did they decide not to fight? I am actually unaware of the situation regarding the Cossack slaughter. I know of them, but never investigated it further

Why decide not to fight, you ask? The British weren't their enemy. Stalin was. When they threw in with the Germans it was completely in the vein of "My enemies enemy is my friend" - Stalin had declared war on them, the instant the German-Soviet non-aggression pact was broken they realised they had an ally in the Germans and so fought to press home the advantage as quickly as possible before the winter set in.

Of course, Adolf being Hitler, German forces decided they knew best and then of course it became a war of attrition and it was to late. At first held off and then forced back by the Soviets towards the oncoming allies the Cossacks fought tooth and nail on the front facing the Russians but all but refused to lift a finger towards the British - they simply were not their enemy. Making sure that their wives and children were on the side closest to the British they surrendered to British forces where captured - against Soviet forces they fought to the death.

Their homeland was already lost, their opposition to Stalin earned them the death sentence in the USSR, their only hope was asylum with ailed forces, particularly the British - unfortunately, even though recognising their struggle as that of one of independence for their own homeland, Churchill had already agreed to the surrender of all soviet citizens captured by allied forces after the war was over.

Their fate was somewhat sealed.

Of course, being a native New Yorker and therefore familiar with what it can be like getting a Taxi outside Maces during the holiday sales, you're already no doubt more than mealy familiar with what being a true warrior entails - therefore I suppose their executions whilst in chains severs each and everyone with the ignominy of a villainous cowards death in an account book such as your own...

Nevertheless, coming from a man who can't be more than merely circumspect about his true beliefs, whose really going to hang around giving the first stuff over quite what such a fellows appraisal might be.

On the whole, y'know, I quite prefer the Jew-hating-Nigger-burning-dyed-in-the-wool Rednecks when it comes to this sort of thing. Thick as pig shit they may be, but at least they've got the balls to come out and say it straight...

 

[Prince_James]

Mr. Anonymous:

You allude to having no close personal relationships with anyone of Jewish birthright. No acquaintances. No social interaction - only in so far as you live in a neighbourhood with diverse cultural and religious ethnicallity...

This is true. I do not generally provide "Jew-credentials". But as you seem to want me to, here's some:

An ex-girlfriend of mine was half-Jewish.
I went to school with several Jews as a boy. Daniel, Harris, Adam, Johnathan...In fact, funny enough, I just drempt of Johnathan and Adam last night. I often dream of grade school for one reason or another.
Had several teachers who were Jewish as a boy.
Had a mentor who was an Orthodox Jew when I was in highschool.
A Jewish cantor helped get me to the hospital to be born.
I've attended a Passover Seder once.
I'm circumsized (although as a secular health matter as is popular here in the States).
My friend Elena is half Russian-Jew and currently living in Moscow until she returns to Brooklyn.
Et cetera, et cetera.

I have no qualms with the Jews as a people. I only have a problem with cowardly Jewish men in the Holocaust.

Also, as New York is a centre of world Jewry (alongside Florida and Israel) generally the term "I'm from New York" suffices to say I am not anti-Jewish. Hell, I even live under a Jewish mayor and voted for him.

"Not even so much as "Why no, Mr Anonymous. I think you'll find I eat bagels all the time!" "

Oddly enough: I had one this morning. Bagels are great. God bless those Jews for them.

Which, and you'll forgive the observations of someone only an infrequent visitor to your fine city - but personally I'd've though it nigh on impossible to reside there and not strike up an acquaintance at the very least with at least one person with a Jewish background. I my self remain in frequent, if not for periods regular, contact with individuals hailing from your neck of the woods I equally know to be Jewish - saves a fortune on Christmas cards each year.... Oi vey!

Exceedingly true. There are Jews everywhere here. One million of them, in fact. They quite contribute to the city.

But you actually live there, and all you have to say is that you're aware that they are around. Which isn't to say that you like them really, is it James? You say that you bear them no ill - but equally, and given your attitudes as displayed throughout this topic - were some calamity to be fall them all, that is not to say, equally, that you would be inclinded to care.

I'd be inclined to help any Jew in trouble, but I'd expect Jewish men to aid me in this endeavour. Especially since it is their people.

Of course, being a native New Yorker and therefore familiar with what it can be like getting a Taxi outside Maces during the holiday sales, you're already no doubt more than mealy familiar with what being a true warrior entails - therefore I suppose their executions whilst in chains severs each and everyone with the ignominy of a villainous cowards death in an account book such as your own...

I would not claim that being captured and killed by the enemy necessarily entails cowardice. Presuming they did not surrender to the Soviets, their failure is not cowardly.

Failure is never, in and of itself, cowardly. Surrender is. Their surrender of their women and children to British care may be conceived of as non-cowardly as it was an attempt to give to a sane power those whom they could no longer protect.