Should we ban the Kosher/Halal method of killing unstunned animals?

[Michael]

I was reading the Spectator today and ran across this article: I refuse to buy meat from supermarkets until they ban halal slaughter

I don't know if it's the sarcasm or what, but I like to read Rod Liddle's literary work Anyway, until the day comes when we stop eating meat altogether, we have generally agreed that we should kill animals as humanly as possible:
- We could kill animals by stunning them first (so they are unconscious when they die).
- We could pray to Xenu, slice open the belly, pull out it's innards, read the future, pierce the heart, dance in the blood, then send it on it's way.
- We could pray to a God, slice it's throat, drain the blood, away it goes (see videos).
(note: these last two examples seem, well, a little New Age and Bronze Age, but meh...)


SO? Which way is the most humane? IMO this is a great question to be answered using the scientific method. There may be different levels of "humane" depending on the animal and the numbers that are "processed" for consumption. Praying to Xenu or the Gods before killing an animal on a farm is a hell of a lot different than processing 100 per minute via an assembly line... THAT said, I am sure once you watch the following video's you can easily tell which is the more humane method of killing an animal (when done properly) See final video for probably the most humane way to make Kosher/Halal meat.

For the Capitalistic Gods:
Meet your Meat (depressing)

For the Muslim God:
Meet your Meat (not for the faint of heart).

For the Jewish God:
Kosher Slaughter (again not for the faint of heart).

THIS seems the most humane and is Halal/Kosher (stunning then throat cut - not that you'd need to cut the throat).
cattle slaughtering



If you watched the videos, you'd have to at least agree that Halal/Kosher killing a conscious animal is much less humane then doing so to a stunned animal (which is just as "halal/kosher" as killing a conscious animal). The only argument I can see a religious nut raising is that God wants the animal to BE conscious and feel the pain of having it's throat slit. Which, TTYTT, for the middle eastern Jewish/Christian/Muslim God, yeah, may indeed be the case :shrug: BUT, lets face it, we're not bound by Bronze Age rituals are we? No.











SO, as stunning an animal before killing it IS more humane, should we ban the outdated ritualistic killing of non-stunned animals that some Jews and Muslims think is required for the production of Kosher/Halal meat?

 

[James R]

I think you ought to stop beating around the bush worrying about whether slaughtering animals is done humanely and start addressing the more immediate question of whether any slaughter at all can be humane.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

But if they are stunned, the physical reaction to fear and pain doesn't drive all the blood out.
That would make it meat that God doesn't like.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Just do not eat meat!

 

[Big Chiller]

No one should eat plants or vegetation either they are living organisms too sure they don't have nociperception like us.

 

[786]

We need to prohibit breathing. Think about all those defenseless tiny organisms in the air!

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Btw although these ritually cut animals may be more painfully slaughtered. These videos are not proof for that. The movement by the animal does not have to be related to pain. It can be a cause of blood flow and other physiological factors. So in this case what you 'see' can be 'deceptive' for the point you're trying to get across. That is they 'feel pain'.

A change in calcium concentrations in the muscle can probably cause jerky and uncontrolled motion- it doesn't mean its painful.

Peace be unto you

 

[IamJoseph]

But if they are stunned, the physical reaction to fear and pain doesn't drive all the blood out.
That would make it meat that God doesn't like.

They can't stop attacking the Hebrew bible, even when it is their foundational bedrock! I cannot talk about hallal as this is conducted in homes and does not follow the Kosher method.

The kosher method is numerously proven in an array of court actions as the world's most painless and humane mode of slauthering, most recently in an action by an animal rights group in Canada - they got their asses kicked like don't ask. More amazing, these animal rights group appear to have selective dementia: all animal rights laws come from the Hebrew bible - exclusively!

If an animal could talk, he would tell the animal rights folk: better you follow the Hebrew laws of animal rights - and you eat me, than not eating me and not following those laws.

 

[S.A.M.]

As far as I know there is no objection to animals being stunned before slaughter for halal meat. However, how many of you have been stunned by a prod? Is it painless? I tried out the "mild" electric shock at the Science Museum, just for kicks. It was awful

 

[Michael]

Btw although these ritually cut animals may be more painfully slaughtered. These videos are not proof for that. The movement by the animal does not have to be related to pain. It can be a cause of blood flow and other physiological factors. So in this case what you 'see' can be 'deceptive' for the point you're trying to get across. That is they 'feel pain'.

A change in calcium concentrations in the muscle can probably cause jerky and uncontrolled motion- it doesn't mean its painful.

Peace be unto you

What would slitting the animals' throat have to do with spinal cord afferents bringing back pain sensation back to the brain? They don't cut through the spinal cord.

No one should eat plants or vegetation either they are living organisms too sure they don't have nociperception like us.

Breatharian?

Just do not eat meat!

But, as for now, people do eat meat.

But if they are stunned, the physical reaction to fear and pain doesn't drive all the blood out.
That would make it meat that God doesn't like.

haha... I wonder who the hell made that shit up. There's nothing wrong with draining blood from an animal (although I like my steak bloody), but it should be following a stun to make the animal unconscious.

I think you ought to stop beating around the bush worrying about whether slaughtering animals is done humanely and start addressing the more immediate question of whether any slaughter at all can be humane.

But, as mentioned before, we do eat meat and I would think will continue to do so for a long time to come.

As we do kill animals to eat, shouldn't we attempt to do so as humanely as possible? I mean, we could bludgeon the animal to death with a rock, but we don't do that. We think that would be immoral. What I'm wondering is if slitting a conscious animals throat is less humane than slitting (or not) an animals throat that is unconscious. IOWs - it is immoral to slit the throat of a conscious animal.

 

[Michael]

As far as I know there is no objection to animals being stunned before slaughter for halal meat. However, how many of you have been stunned by a prod? Is it painless? I tried out the "mild" electric shock at the Science Museum, just for kicks. It was awful

a prod to the arse is different than a stun to the skull.

Prods are part of the industry to produce cheap food for the masses - and are considered immoral by some people. Most people are pretty blind when it comes to where food comes from. I think we should at least think about these questions.

I was just speaking with someone on Friday who was talking to these little kids at a B-day party (for 5-6 year olds). One kid said to her how much they loved eating drummies. To which my friend said: Oh, chicken legs. The kids had one in his hand, and, of course, started crying. You'd be surprised at how many 12 year old kids don't know meat comes from animals!

 

[S.A.M.]

So whats the empirical evidence that being shocked or bashed into unconsciousness is less painful than bleeding to death?

Most people are pretty blind when it comes to where food comes from

These are probably the same kind of people who won't eat fish if the head is intact. They are made squeamish by virtue of a lifestyle divorced from nature. We grew up in a society where we raised chickens for food, witnessed goats and cows being killed for meat and picked fish live in buckets of sea water- and even today, we buy chickens "fresh" ie pick out the bird and wait for the 20 minutes it takes the shopkeeper to kill it and remove the feathers.

 

[IamJoseph]

Btw although these ritually cut animals may be more painfully slaughtered. These videos are not proof for that. The movement by the animal does not have to be related to pain. It can be a cause of blood flow and other physiological factors. So in this case what you 'see' can be 'deceptive' for the point you're trying to get across. That is they 'feel pain'.

A change in calcium concentrations in the muscle can probably cause jerky and uncontrolled motion- it doesn't mean its painful.

Peace be unto you

Little known ancient biology:

A cow has a loop in one of its four throat veins - the loop is in the vein which directs blood to the brain. When this vein is cut, it stops blood flow to the brain, which means there is no pain and the animal becomes unconcscious within a few seconds.

The only animals which possess this blood flow stopping loop are those animals with two specific attributes: split hoofs and those which chew their cud [masticates the food]. This is stated in an ancient text 1000's of years old, and its source for knowing this detail is a mystery.

Further, the same source says a pig is the only animal which has split hooves but does not chew its cud: the odds for any such knowledge to be known among all millions of creatures throughout the world is a mystery. To offset any notion this is a fluke guess, the same source goes on to list three other animals which do the reverse of the pig: these chew the cud but have no split hooves.

There is nothing bad about a pig - but if it is slauthered in the kosher way, it will feel great pain - it does not have the right traits. That's how fastidious the Hebrew bible is about kindness to animals - applying it even when killing for consumption!

Another mystery in the Hebrew bible is not to mix meat and milk. We may not be able to identify if the milk belongs to which slaughtered animal - but another animal can easily identify if that milk is from her child, and it constitutes a cruel thing for a human to kill both the mother and offspring together or near each other.

The lion is not bad because it eats a cow, and the cow is not good because it does not eat the lion. These animals have no choice here.

 

[scifes]

i say we stun them, then clobber them, then water board them, then burn them, then spray them with acid, and THEN..slaughter them.

 

[Dywyddyr]

those which chew their cud [masticates the food].

v., -cat·ed, -cat·ing, -cates.
v.tr.
1. To chew (food).

Mastication does not refer (solely) to cud-chewing.

Not only do you mangle facts and history, you also mangle the English language...

How come you are never monitored of all the jargon you post

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2627963&postcount=64

 

[Neverfly]

Mastication does not refer (solely) to cud-chewing.

Not only do you mangle facts and history, you also mangle the English language...


http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2627963&postcount=64

That isn't the half of it...

See? This is why I put him on ignore... (Sigh!)

One: The loop referred to is not a "loop" and it's easily missed during the ceremony.
Two: I've seen the ceremony performed several times. They take this Saw looking thing to the bottom of the throat and saw upwards. They are essentially just slitting its throat. The animal is in agony (and extreme instinctive fear) the entire time the cut is being made. It's more likely that the cow will bleed to death before that "loop" he refers to is ever hit... It is a very cruel death.
Three: Listed among the biblical animals that chew cud is rabbits. But that's false. Rabbits do not chew cud.
Pigs also do not chew cud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruminant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cud
Four: Back in the day, there were no garbage men. Garbage was composed primarily of food scraps, not plastic. Worse, folks tended to through their trash right outside of their dwellings.
The pigs kept the garbage cleaned up and this is the likeliest reason why it was decreed that pigs not be killed as food.
With the pigs eaten- no one was around to clean up the trash. Watching animals eat trash easily made them seem unclean.

It's pretty sad when his best justifications are so pathetic.

Back on ignore...

 

[Kat9Lives]

i'm not brave enough to watch the video's.
but i voted
YES!

 

[Nasor]

The kosher method is numerously proven in an array of court actions as the world's most painless and humane mode of slauthering, most recently in an action by an animal rights group in Canada - they got their asses kicked like don't ask.

It seems absurd on its face to suggest that cutting an animal's throat is more humane than stunning it with a blow that renders it immediately unconscious. Care to explain yourself?

A cow has a loop in one of its four throat veins - the loop is in the vein which directs blood to the brain. When this vein is cut, it stops blood flow to the brain, which means there is no pain and the animal becomes unconcscious within a few seconds.

First, since there's an astonishing amount of non-scientific bullshit that gets thrown around in these discussions, I'm going to need you to provide a scientific reference to back up this assertion. Second, I don't know about cows, but a human brain remains conscious for up to ten seconds even if blood flow to the brain is completely cut off. Ten seconds of agony is NOT as humane as instant unconsciousness from a blow to the head.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

If an animal could talk, he would tell the animal rights folk: better you follow the Hebrew laws of animal rights - and you eat me, than not eating me and not following those laws.

Undoubtedly. But who trusts the testimony of talking animals?
They are unreliable at best.

Once we have a World Government, Halal and similar practises will be banned.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I knew a vegetarian woman who let her child decide for himself whether he wanted to eat meat.
She made it plain to the child that beef was a dead cow.
So when the child wanted a beefburger, he used to say "Can I have some dead cow Mummy?"
That always got a laugh.