Should Theists Demand Evidence?

You have been given answers in several different threads now VitalOne. Perhaps you could stop being dishonest?
I'm not being dishonest, and this is the last time I'm saying this, come on point out where they gave me empirical evidence...the only evidence I got was "well if God came down one day and appeared to everyone at once" or "well if you revived an amputees leg" or "if you prayed and won the lottery 100 times in a row"...these things don't constitute as empirical evidence of God/a soul/karma/heaven/hell, etc....

Please back up your statements instead of using the typical atheistic tactics....

This is the last time I want to have to ask you to stop mocking my knowledge, (belief if you prefer).
Yeah right, you're a liar and a pretender, you can't actually answer the question so you come up with lame typical atheistic tactics to avoid and dodge out of confronting the issue in order to ridicule religion....great strategy
 
First of all theists are not willing to believe anything to do with the supernatural, sure, in a way all theist believes in the supernatural, but not anything!

Exactly when does a theist (or anyone with a belief in at least one 'supernatural' phenomenon) get to the point where a supernatural postulation is too ridiculous to believe?
 
I'm not being dishonest, and this is the last time I'm saying this, come on point out where they gave me empirical evidence...the only evidence I got was "well if God came down one day and appeared to everyone at once" or "well if you revived an amputees leg" or "if you prayed and won the lottery 100 times in a row"...these things don't constitute as empirical evidence of God/a soul/karma/heaven/hell, etc....

Please back up your statements instead of using the typical atheistic tactics....
Actually I will cut and paste the last time I answered you.

"
You were given answers that were similar to acts in the bible - you know, the religious text that describes god. You were given answers that were a display of god-like powers and you refuse to accept these answers and keep repeating "atheists can't answer the question". When challenged you admit that you really mean no one could answer the question to your satisfaction. When challenged again you try to wiggle by claiming that you actually meant empirical evidence the whole time and therefore those answers don't count. Yes you are being dishonest.

The first definition of empirical evidence I found was "evidence relating to or based on experience or observation".

Lets say that praying for amputee's caused their legs/arms to grow back or made the sick heal instantly. Explain to me why you don't think this could be empirical evidence for a god or the supernatural.
"


From http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71238&page=2

Perhaps you could respond to Nasor's posts as well.
 
Actually I will cut and paste the last time I answered you.

"
You were given answers that were similar to acts in the bible - you know, the religious text that describes god. You were given answers that were a display of god-like powers and you refuse to accept these answers and keep repeating "atheists can't answer the question". When challenged you admit that you really mean no one could answer the question to your satisfaction. When challenged again you try to wiggle by claiming that you actually meant empirical evidence the whole time and therefore those answers don't count. Yes you are being dishonest.

The first definition of empirical evidence I found was "evidence relating to or based on experience or observation".

No I'm saying their answers don't satisfying rationality and logic...not my personal satisfaction, personally I'm already satisfied with my evidence...

shaman_ said:
Lets say that praying for amputee's caused their legs/arms to grow back or made the sick heal instantly. Explain to me why you don't think this could be empirical evidence for a god or the supernatural.
"
Ok, its simple, you see logically speaking it has absolutely nothing to do with God/karma/heaven/hell/or a soul, logically speaking it only proves that you can, using your will bring an amputee's leg back...thats all it proves logically...it also has nothing to with anything supernatural or outside of nature...

shaman_ said:
From http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71238&page=2

Perhaps you could respond to Nasor's posts as well.
His post doesn't match up to logic and rationality...although you may pretend it does
 
All these arguments that attempt to prove the existence of god could be explained just as well by the existence of an intelligent alien race that wishes to meddle in our affairs or by unknown powers of human will/mind or some other SF plot if you prefer. Personally I don't think the existence of god is provable or unprovable. Kant spent a lot of time putting forth a pretty good argument that it isn't. So until god reveals him/her/itself to me I'll withold judgment.

Belief has to be based on faith, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
Yeah right, you're a liar and a pretender, you can't actually answer the question so you come up with lame typical atheistic tactics to avoid and dodge out of confronting the issue in order to ridicule religion

My apologies, what question didn't I answer? Further to which - if there was a question that I didn't answer, which there wasn't, why feel that is valid cause to insult me and insult my beliefs?
 
No I'm saying their answers don't satisfying rationality and logic...not my personal satisfaction
Why are their answers illogical? Theists have claimed that miracle healing has happened after praying to god. According to the bible, God has performed similar acts many times before. Do you believe the events in the bible happened? Do you think that anyone who believes that those events occurred is therefore irrational and illogical?

Ok, its simple, you see logically speaking it has absolutely nothing to do with God/karma/heaven/hell/or a soul, logically speaking it only proves that you can, using your will bring an amputee's leg back...thats all it proves logically...it also has nothing to with anything supernatural or outside of nature...
How do you know it was your will that made the limb grow back? You are making an assumption here.

I don’t want to get into a discussion regarding the definition of ‘supernatural’ but growing someone’s limb back by merely wishing it could be called supernatural don’t you think?

His post doesn't match up to logic and rationality...although you may pretend it does
With all respect VitalOne, you seem an intelligent, passionate person but logic is not your strength.
 
*************
M*W: "Should theists demand evidence?" Of course they should, but they're afraid of learning the truth. Even if the truth was presented to them on a silver platter, they would deny it. As long as a person believes without evidence, they are delusional. In fact, they are all delusional, but they're afraid to believe the truth. It's sad, really.
 
*************
M*W: "Should theists demand evidence?" Of course they should, but they're afraid of learning the truth. Even if the truth was presented to them on a silver platter, they would deny it. As long as a person believes without evidence, they are delusional. In fact, they are all delusional, but they're afraid to believe the truth. It's sad, really.

It must be hard to be raised religious (brainwashed) and have to face the fact that what you have comitted yourself to for decades is a complete sham. No wonder most cling to their delusion like a tree in a hurricane.

I know you shed those particular shackles MW.
 
Q
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
and empiricists have an identical crisis of faith on their hands if they regard reality (noumena) as capable of being delineated by the senses (phenomenal). So even if your statements about theism are correct, its not clear why you have a bias.

That would then be the same crisis of faith that created your computer, internet connection, medicine, air conditioning, etc.? And, that's somehow biased?
I only have a crisis of faith when I give these things an absolute status

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
how is a gun that is fired from a point beyond your sense of hearing and sight within your senses?



You need not be dishonest to make your point, lg.

So, from your worldview, nothing exists outside of YOUR own senses?
I thought that was your world view?
Maybe I should reiterate the point

How do we know that sense data is the truth?

To rephrase the question, how do we know that what the world seems to us to be, is what the world really is?

We won't find the answer in a report on what the world seems to us to be. And a report that tells us with complete certainty that there is no truth beyond what the world seems to us to be is a report about what is outside the range of our senses. Such a report cannot be empirically true, for it does not correspond to perception.
 
I only have a crisis of faith when I give these things an absolute status

Really? You must have many a crisis, then.

How do we know that sense data is the truth?

To rephrase the question, how do we know that what the world seems to us to be, is what the world really is?

However the world affects us and our surroundings is as relevant as it's going to get. If there IS something more to the world, it hasn't been observed, hasn't affected us in any way and is probably "beyond" our senses.

The real question SHOULD be, what makes you think there IS a world unknown to us if that world has not been observed? And if it doesn't affect us or is relevant, why should we bother with it?

We won't find the answer in a report on what the world seems to us to be. And a report that tells us with complete certainty that there is no truth beyond what the world seems to us to be is a report about what is outside the range of our senses. Such a report cannot be empirically true, for it does not correspond to perception.

I've never seen such an "absolute" report as you describe. However, the bible, the talmud and the quran come very close to that description.
 
It must be hard to be raised religious (brainwashed) and have to face the fact that what you have comitted yourself to for decades is a complete sham. No wonder most cling to their delusion like a tree in a hurricane.

I know you shed those particular shackles MW.
*************
M*W: Yes, it's so much easier (and safer) to live in a lie than to question the truth. So they surround themselves with believers in that same lie while they all stick their heads in the sand and proclaim they know the truth when they have NEVER questioned it!
 
*************
M*W: Yes, it's so much easier (and safer) to live in a lie than to question the truth. So they surround themselves with believers in that same lie while they all stick their heads in the sand and proclaim they know the truth when they have NEVER questioned it!

so do some atheists
 
Q
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I only have a crisis of faith when I give these things an absolute status

Really? You must have many a crisis, then.
I wasn't aware that i was giving them that status
and I also wasn't aware that you weren't ....

How do we know that sense data is the truth?

To rephrase the question, how do we know that what the world seems to us to be, is what the world really is?

However the world affects us and our surroundings is as relevant as it's going to get. If there IS something more to the world, it hasn't been observed, hasn't affected us in any way and is probably "beyond" our senses.
your statement doesn't make sense

how do you propose to examine what is beyond your senses by analyzing a report of what is within your senses?
The real question SHOULD be, what makes you think there IS a world unknown to us if that world has not been observed? And if it doesn't affect us or is relevant, why should we bother with it?
once again, your statement doesn't make sense

Its not clear why you assume that something that is beyond our senses doesn't bear an effect, given that there isn't a single branch of empiricism that has come close to exhausting its line of inquiry.

As for what impetus there is for asserting that there is an existence beyond matter, there is no point discussing it until one can confidently abandon empiricism as a means of discerning anything other than relative values

We won't find the answer in a report on what the world seems to us to be. And a report that tells us with complete certainty that there is no truth beyond what the world seems to us to be is a report about what is outside the range of our senses. Such a report cannot be empirically true, for it does not correspond to perception.

I've never seen such an "absolute" report as you describe.
really?
then on what grounds do you say that things beyond our senses are irrelevant and pursue the whole "you're deluded" angle?


However, the bible, the talmud and the quran come very close to that description.
then one would have to examine further whether they offer empiricism as the foundation for such claims and see if they are sinking by the same means that you are trying to keep afloat
 
Selectively believing in the supernatural is intellectually dishonest.
I don't think so. If you don't believe in some things, but yet believe in other things, why would that be dishonest even if it all belongs in the same realm?



Such as what?
UFO's, ghosts, you name it...



I was just showing you the other side of the coin.



Your selective beliefs will make sure there is much that will have little bearing for you.
?

Realities that include the supernatural are fantasies, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
Sometimes fantasies becomes true.
 
I don't think so. If you don't believe in some things, but yet believe in other things, why would that be dishonest even if it all belongs in the same realm?

If I told you an invisible pink dragon lived in my attic, am I being honest with you?

Sometimes fantasies becomes true.

What fantasy has become true?
 
If I told you an invisible pink dragon lived in my attic, am I being honest with you?

The predicted answer is "no" if you truly believe that this pink elephant is actually there. In this case, you would be deluded rather than dishonest.

I think this is an important consideration for those that rely on reason and reject superstition and the supernatural as answers for questions in the universe. This is because we often overlook the fact that delusion, while clearly present in those that accept religious "truths" (particularly those "truths" that include supernatural and paranormal claims), doesn't imply dishonesty. I've been deluded many times in my life and will undoubtedly be victim of delusion again in the future. I once thought I saw a bear while hiking in the woods of Western PA. I was very sure that it was a bear and even believed I saw the "bear" move. I changed my course and gave the "bear" a wide berth.

As my perspective on the situation changed, my delusion became clear: my pattern-forming brain, ever on the lookout for dangers, potential mates and food identified a fallen tree with its exposed roots in shadow as creating the form of a bear. Bears, being very real risks to hikers in the woods I was in, are worth avoiding. Had I been hiking in a region where bears aren't known to inhabit, I might have been more skeptical.

But my delusion doesn't make me dishonest. It just makes me gullible. I've hiked those woods previously and since and have seen bears on several occasions -usually around trash bins, so my gullibility on those occasions paid off.

I think that religious thought works the same way. Clearly, the religious are being gullible since there isn't a shred of evidence to support their claims to the degree that they generally exist (transubstantiation, virgin birth, zombie-ism, faith-healing, flying clergy, etc.). There is even substantial evidence that supports the counter claims against their core beliefs (an ancient, slowly evolved planet full of life; a geologic record that excludes possibility of global flood, an archaeological record that precludes doctrinal myths, etc). Allowing for this gullibility, the religious are hedging their bets and seeing patterns that form beliefs that simply aren't their.

Like avoiding my "bear" in the woods, the theist expectations of afterlife, salvation, end-times, etc. might seem like the wise choices. If there's any dishonesty, it arises after the core beliefs are instilled -after the delusion is set. Some theists refuse to accept evidence that doesn't support or contradicts their beliefs -some even suggest that the deception is that of Satan and they must not look at it!

Not allowing their perspective to change so that all sides of the issue are examined starts the journey toward dishonesty in their beliefs. Dishonesty is present for those that cannot escape the change of perspective (i.e. those theists that obtain an education in science and still believe the Earth is 6,000 years old) and, certainly, those that pretend to change perspective but really don't (i.e. those that claim they've read & understand various scientific perspectives yet fail to demonstrate this to be true).

I won't say that simply believing that a god exists is dishonest. It might be delusion, but it isn't "dishonest." There are plenty of devout believers in god that accept their religious texts for what they are: beautiful works of literature that provide a basis for one of the world's religions. To them, their god is capable of creating the universe through evolution and for them the laws of physics are gifts from their god.

I don't buy it, but I don't call these people dishonest since they truly believe that their pink elephant resides in their attics. I think they're deluded. But at least their delusion is honest.

I would, however, say that those that have had the opportunity to educate themselves or gain new perspectives yet remain anti-science to the degree that they oppose the laws of physics, the truth of chemistry, the presence of biological and anthropological evidences, and the validity of geology are all completely dishonest since they've completely buried their heads in the sand in favor of their delusions. Rather than modify or adapt their beliefs, they've chosen to reject the very sciences that have given to them automobiles, cell phones, computers, modern fabrics, agriculture, etc. They find no contradiction in both rejecting science when it doesn't conform to their pre-conceived conclusions, yet accepting it when it’s convenient.
 
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