Theocracy is indeed a threat to human liberty.
Should theists be treated like ordinary humans?
- Thread starter wynn
- Start date
Theocracy is indeed a threat to human liberty.
What option is there but to essentially take people at face value?
Granted, often enough, we can see for ourselves whether someone is what they claim to be - this is so in mundane matters.
It's just that in the case of theism, the situation is categorically different. One cannot really prove whether the theists are right or wrong, whether they are what they claim to be. They are referring to an authority to which an ordinary person has no access. But if they are right, then we, the ordinary people, are doomed.
To me, everything a theist says carries special weight - because it was said by a theist.
If an ordinary person says something to me, nice or mean, I can evaluate it for myself and do as I see fit.
But with a theist, I can never know what I am up against, or what relevance their statement might have. I think it has to be presumed that a theist always has or at least might have God behind them, supporting the theist. (They, after all, often enough say so directly, or imply it.)
Good for you, then, I suppose.
Do you mean that you and your theist friends and associates view eachother as persons with needs, interests and concerns, as persons with feelings?
How do you contextualize their theism?
Do you not feel threatened by it in any way?
Have they never used their theism as a justification for mistreating you?
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
Try to be a little less credulous and a bit more discerning?
That depends on the theology that the theist is espousing, I guess.
Somewhere deep inside you, I think that part of you believes what they tell you. And unfortunately, you seem to listen most attentively to the hellfire and damnation types. You appear to fear God more than you love him.
I wasn't raised in a Christian home and never grew up believing any of it. So to me, "theists" (whatever that word refers to) are just part of the mix, part of the world's religious diversity. Lots of people believe lots of very different and often contradictory things, some of it more credible than others.
So I just call'em the way that I see'em. Tha's all that I can do. I don't worry about it. Theists are no more authoritative, and no more threatening, to me than anyone else that I pass every day in the street. They just happen to believe things that I don't. That's true of pretty much everyone, I guess.
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
Of course.
I'm not sure what question you are asking there.
Most of the Christians and Jews that I know are very secular people. I relate to them through the events of our lives, working for the same employer, through similar avocational interests, through discussing the news and sports, through family, and similar things. Religion isn't typically the foremost thing in any of our minds.
I do have more formal interests in the area of religion, and I do discuss the subject with religious believers of all sorts. But in academic contexts at least, everyone gives everyone else room and nobody seems to be overly concerned when others don't believe precisely as they do. As I've said before, my thesis supervisor was a former Catholic priest with a Doctorate in Sacred Theology no less. We got along very well.
No. I find it kind of fascinating.
I don't recall that ever happening in my life. People have mistreated me now and then, but never for religious reasons.
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If they weren't the majority, it might make sense to treat them as handicap.
But they are not ordinary, they are extraordinary. They think that their path will lead them to the light while we're going to rot in our miserable world that on one hand resembles paradise, but on the other hand looks like hell, they're so amazing that they think that paradise and hell's somewhere else, up or below -- doesn't really matter, what matters is that it has to be somewhere else, although one could claim that we're already in the eye of the tornado, but we ought to reach our hands out for something that we can't reach one way or the other; human nature is pretty arrogant, or maybe I should rather say insatiable?
We could always put them in a mental institution.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Well, again, only if he actually exists. I don't perceive 'the threat of God' to be any sort of real threat.
I was only joking, of course
How come? Most theists are not that outgoing about their beliefs. I've been friends with religious people and their religion hardly ever came up. It certainly didn't create any problems.
You seem to be generalizing here.
Yes, you should have. I mean, come on. You see theists as some sort of sub-human creatures? :bugeye:
*raising eyebrows*
Are you serious?
Whosoever attempts to strike fear into someone using the "Power of God" is doubly foolish. One insists you are naive with words and have false pretenses over what God actually is. And two because all one has to do to give up the fear is stop believing. If god is the only thing you fear. Give him up and live with nothing. Pick up your dragging, lost, agnostic mind and let it roam free through limbo. Not attached to any belief or desire. Completely independent from the universe itself.
Then choose to believe in something deep within yourself. The "I" that does the thinking.
We all think pretty much the same things. Why show emotions at all towards other people. Probably my largest pet peeve. Someone showing emotions that are too strong for the moment or too soft for a lifetime. Those lips you should have kissed, or those bitter words that came harshly spoken yet well meant. Pointless wastes of time that cause people to forget that we are only people.
Then choose to believe in something deep within yourself. The "I" that does the thinking.
We all think pretty much the same things. Why show emotions at all towards other people. Probably my largest pet peeve. Someone showing emotions that are too strong for the moment or too soft for a lifetime. Those lips you should have kissed, or those bitter words that came harshly spoken yet well meant. Pointless wastes of time that cause people to forget that we are only people.
Sounds like you were wronged . Ass holes come in all types . I have been known to be a little ass holish my self . If I ever hurt you ' I am sorry . People do stupid things . We are people . We make mistakes . Hopefully we learn from mistakes
I say no no no
Like I said, I'm talking about my experiences.
But you are from the Netherlands and Yazata is from California. Perhaps you should try out the Bible Belt, or Ireland or Poland or some parts of Germany, just so that you can get an idea ...
No, but I do see them as a different category. In my experience, this is what they themselves want anyway (they, the believers in God, vs. us, the worldly people).
In my experience, not really. Whether they preach eternal damnation to non-believers or such criteria for coming to faith that are not under one's control, the result is in roundabout the same. You go to hell, or you never get it right, either way, you're doomed.
You partly answered it above, when you said -
True, and I think this comes from my worst-case-scenario reasoning.
I'd say I am one of those people who don't believe in God, but who fear Him anyway.
I heard a tidbit from an anthropologist once who was studying Arctic natives. An elder told him, after some discussion on their beliefs - "we don't believe, we fear".
Actually, I had made a deliberate effort to help myself, and looked up some literature on living in a multicultural society, education for tolerance and such.
And although it all generally made sense, I could not integrate it - as such integration would mean that I myself would be neutral, not have a culture of my own. Much of the tolerance talk seems to imply that tolerance and respect for others can only come at the cost of respect for oneself.
Do you know any useful literature on this topic?
Found this:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religious-pluralism/
Will study it, and see.
"3. Religious Diversity and Epistemic Obligation" - that is the kind of thing I am interested in.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religious-pluralism/
Will study it, and see.
"3. Religious Diversity and Epistemic Obligation" - that is the kind of thing I am interested in.
1) Hang all theists (along with a few commies, liberals and rednecks for the sake of balance)
2) Hang a token gypsy so they don't feel left out
3) Throw the hanged theists et al in pits of burning lye just to ensure they are properly dead
4) Then just go about your own business knowing that the evil theists are no threat to your own picaresque world view
Or go straight to 4 and have a nice day.
4) Then just go about your own business knowing that the evil theists are no threat to your own picaresque world view
Or go straight to 4 and have a nice day.
This is what I find so fascinating - How do people arrive at such a stance?
How does someone dismiss other people's religiousness?
Somehow, you have come to the point where your personal ethics and philosophy override other people's ethics and philosophy.
As an example: How would you treat a member of the royal family if you somehow met them in a private setting (say, a birthday party at your friends)? Would you keep more distance to them than to other people whom you have also met there for the first time?
If they had food between their teeth, would you tell them?
Of course. It's your life, Signal! Wake up and take control of it.