Should science replace religion?

[billvon]

I'd say a greater number of Christians believe in creationism over evolution.

Somewhere around 90%, give or take. But the Abrahamic religious theists are only one category of theist.

Gallup poll question:
"God created humans in present form within last 10,000 years" vs "humans evolved" (either with or without Godly assistance)

Protestants - Creation 50% Evolution 45%
Catholics - Creation 37% Evolution 56%

https://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-humans-new-low.aspx

 

[sideshowbob]

As much as all atheists would like to portray their unbelief as one of logic, I think many turn from faith because of a bad faith experience, thus it is more of an emotional response.

I, for one, never had a "bad faith experience". I may have had a lack of good faith experiences.

Similarly, I wouldn't say that my lack of belief has anything to do with logic. It's more like a lack of logic to support the belief. For example, I don't believe that extraterrestrials have visited earth because there's no logical explanation for how they could have gotten here.

 

[wegs]

"All atheists" would not "like" to do any such thing. That is bullshit.
The projection of "bad faith experience" unto other people is likewise bullshit. It is a personal denigration, and like all your claims regarding "atheists" it overlooks the very wide variety of people that fall into that category. (It also, side note, seems to confuse "faith" with "religion")

I'm not confusing anything. I'm not religious, but believe in God. I'm not broad brushing atheists. I'm stating that you nor any other atheist here, can speak for all atheists or theists. You have no idea why people choose faith. You have no idea why some atheists are atheists. To say otherwise, would be a personal denigration to either side. (Note, I used and typically always use the word ''many'' when describing atheists or theists, in general. There are always exceptions, and there are always a great many people who don't fall into any category. So, I don't generalize, it's just not my style)

Somewhere around 90%, give or take. But the Abrahamic religious theists are only one category of theist.

Agree

A great many religious and spiritual types are atheistic.

Also agree.

 

[wegs]

Gallup poll question:
"God created humans in present form within last 10,000 years" vs "humans evolved" (either with or without Godly assistance)

Protestants - Creation 50% Evolution 45%
Catholics - Creation 37% Evolution 56%

https://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-humans-new-low.aspx

Thank you.

I, for one, never had a "bad faith experience". I may have had a lack of good faith experiences.

Similarly, I wouldn't say that my lack of belief has anything to do with logic. It's more like a lack of logic to support the belief. For example, I don't believe that extraterrestrials have visited earth because there's no logical explanation for how they could have gotten here.

I appreciate you sharing that. When I left faith, it was due to an overall indifference towards prayer life, and belief in a general sense. I just gradually stopped going to church, and seeing the point of it all. It was around then, that I began reading books that supported this view, and perhaps through those readings, I became more ''logical'' about my stance.

Returning to a belief in God, comes from a place of searching and seeking. I've studied world religions as somewhat of a hobby, so maybe there is something endearing for me about faith, in a broader sense. And, I'm in a comfortable place, now. Maybe I never felt comfortable as an atheist, if I'm honest.

 

[Goldtop]

some atheists lie also at times about theists, to suit their own narrative.

Again, feel free to point that out at any time and I would happy to support you.

Faith is a subjective experience

And, not an objective experience. Exactly.

what would my one story prove to anyone here?

As much as any other subjective story, either you accept it on faith or not. Of course, faith is a very poor road to knowledge, often shown to be wrong.

Only 2% of Christians, or maybe less, believe that the earth is flat.

So, about 20 Million Christians believe in a flat earth. How many atheists believe in a flat earth?

a great many religious people and spiritual types adopt a ''live and let live'' type of mentality, and don't bother anyone.

True, but it's the many, many millions of Christians who don't adopt that mentality that fucks it up for everyone else.

 

[sideshowbob]

Returning to a belief in God, comes from a place of searching and seeking.

I've never felt any particular motivation to "search" for "something". I suspect that the Biblical saying, "Seek and ye shall find," has some truth to it. The desire to find "something" will produce results, whether there is anything really there or not.

 

[iceaura]

Gallup poll question:

Most Christians live far from Gallup polling.
And the question gave even the US fundies an out, via poor wording:

"God created humans in present form within last 10,000 years" vs "humans evolved"

The subset of creationists who hold the hardcore "present form exactly, last 10,000 years" belief is very large, but it's only a subset. Gallup has confused the entire "micro vs macro" arena of argument in that wording.

 

[wegs]

Again, feel free to point that out at any time and I would happy to support you.

In post #372, you mention people making ''ridiculous claims.'' It would seem that you feel all people of faith, who believe in a higher power, are making ridiculous claims. That's fine if you think that, but that would be an example. I've read articles written by atheists that suggest all Christians must be racists, since the Bible is filled with bigotry. That would also be a falsehood, to assume that all Christians think alike.

And, not an objective experience. Exactly.

I thought that was made clear early on in this thread.

As much as any other subjective story, either you accept it on faith or not. Of course, faith is a very poor road to knowledge, often shown to be wrong.

A person of faith doesn't have to sacrifice their love of science, and seeking knowledge in other areas.

So, about 20 Million Christians believe in a flat earth. How many atheists believe in a flat earth?

If every single atheist believed this, would it change the fact that the earth is not flat? Nope. I don't see why people get upset over absurd beliefs of others.

True, but it's the many, many millions of Christians who don't adopt that mentality that fucks it up for everyone else.

Agree, but Christianity is on the decline, in the west.

 

[sideshowbob]

I don't see why people get upset over absurd beliefs of others.

It should be pretty clear; we're only five minutes away from having creationism taught in schools as science.

 

[wegs]

It should be pretty clear; we're only five minutes away from having creationism taught in schools as science.

I thought this was ruled as ''unconstitutional'' by the Supreme Court?

 

[sideshowbob]

I thought this was ruled as ''unconstitutional'' by the Supreme Court?

So was banning abortion but look what's happening in Alabama.

 

[wegs]

If it wasn't made clear earlier in this thread, my general stance on this topic is...to simply have the freedom to choose one's spiritual belief system. To just have the freedom to do so, is what I'm advocating. Of course, within reason. One's beliefs/religion must not harm others or usurp government and its laws. But, freedom to choose one's beliefs, is something I'd not want to see banned.

 

[wegs]

So was banning abortion but look what's happening in Alabama.

I can't see that bill taking effect. There are appeals in the works.

 

[gmilam]

I suspect most people support "freedom of conscience" as Thomas Jefferson called it. But the current news on abortion, evolution/creation in the science class and attitudes towards the LGBT community shows that a vocal minority do not... and they are getting laws passed that support their bigotry.

You ask why people get upset over other people's absurd beliefs, and then argue with them when they tell you. (Just an observation...)

 

[wegs]

I suspect most people support "freedom of conscience" as Thomas Jefferson called it. But the current news on abortion, evolution/creation in the science class and attitudes towards the LGBT community shows that a vocal minority do not... and they are getting laws passed that support their bigotry.

You ask why people get upset over other people's absurd beliefs, and then argue with them when they tell you. (Just an observation...)

I’m not arguing with them when they tell me.

I don’t understand what motivates some of you to misquote people here. I don’t get it.

I remember why I stopped posting here.

 

[sideshowbob]

I can't see that bill taking effect. There are appeals in the works.

It just illustrates that there are ways to outflank the constitution, even if only temporarily. There is no limit to how far religious zealots will go to inflict their beliefs on others.

 

[wegs]

It just illustrates that there are ways to outflank the constitution, even if only temporarily. There is no limit to how far religious zealots will go to inflict their beliefs on others.

I agree. But what’s strange to me is if you look at different surveys, even a great many (70%?) Catholics believe that abortion should remain legal. So who the heck is pushing this through? I’m not familiar with certain state politics but it still seems to go against what the majority of Americans want.

 

[Jeeves]

I, for one, never had a "bad faith experience". I may have had a lack of good faith experiences.

Similarly, I wouldn't say that my lack of belief has anything to do with logic. It's more like a lack of logic to support the belief. For example, I don't believe that extraterrestrials have visited earth because there's no logical explanation for how they could have gotten here.

Are you trying to tell this court that you need a better reason to believe something than to not believe something?
Does that extend to needing a better reason to shower, put on your best clothes and go somewhere crowded and listen to a guy drone about somethingorother that makes no sense than to stay home and eat waffles?

I thought this [creationism taught in public school] was ruled as ''unconstitutional'' by the Supreme Court?

By a supreme court. Not that that stopped several states from finding a way around outright banning by simply making it too difficult for poor women. (Rich ones do as they please, always have.)
But with Trump-appointed judges, all kinds of constitutional breaches more possible every day. In fact, you can pretty much shred that whole document, right now --- except that half a sentence about bearing arms, of course.

 

[sideshowbob]

So who the heck is pushing this through? I’m not familiar with certain state politics but it still seems to go against what the majority of Americans want.

*shrug* That isn't the issue I was discussing. I just pointed out "why people get upset over absurd beliefs of others". If it's a minority imposing their beliefs on the majority, all the more reason to get upset.

 

[iceaura]

I'm not broad brushing atheists.

Of course you are. For one example: It was you, not Goldtop about theists, who made claims about - explicitly - "all" atheists. I replied to that post, if you recall.

You have no idea why some atheists are atheists. To say otherwise, would be a personal denigration to either side.

And so when you did that, it was a personal denigration. As I pointed out.

I'm stating that you nor any other atheist here, can speak for all atheists or theists.

But I'm not. You are - at least, speaking about them. Like this:

You have no idea why people choose faith.

Bullshit.
Since you have no idea what my beliefs are in the matter of faith, how I differ from any given other atheistic person, or even - if you bothered to pay attention - whether or not I even am atheistic in this context, you are broad brushing atheists in that baseless assertion.

Personal denigration based on ignorance, a projection of your own imaginary conception of "atheist" unto other people. You have been doing that a lot, on this thread.

And pretty much unforced error - I have posted nothing on the topic of why people choose faith (which you seem to think is identical with theistic belief, again pointing to a confusion), so my supposed inability to form ideas in the matter has nothing to do with this thread or my posting.

Meanwhile, the US has a serious political problem with the large, dominant, self-aware population of Christians in the country who have been organized into the central voting bloc of the Republican Party. They are in fact racist, they are in fact creationist, they are in fact authoritarian, they are in fact male supremacist, they are in fact opposed to much scientific inquiry and its findings, they do in fact justify these stances and beliefs on explicitly Christian grounds. Their representatives control the military, the executive branch, much of the court system, most of the State government, and most of Congress. They are the norm, the standard, the basic reference of the word "Christian" or the word "theist" in any discussion of US religious or theistic belief.