Should atheism be recognised?

Should atheism be recognised?

  • Yes, I want to be recognised for the stuff I don't believe in

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • No, its stupid to have a category for NOT believing in something

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Got better things to think about

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • My opinion, which is better than yours, is given in a post below

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9
:confused:

Okay. Lets say I join this forum and had given no indication of my religious beliefs or leanings. Would I therefore be barred from participating in discussions that deal with religion or atheism, because I cannot be boxed into whatever category you seem to need to have? Does that mean I would cease to exist if I do not pigeonhole myself into a safe little category for your comfort?

I think I can answer this one: not at all.
 
If there were no atheists at this forum, how much discussion of the atheist POV would there be?
 
well if we were discussing the value of an opinion, it might be helpful to determine where it exists (or even whether it exists) don't you think?

:bugeye:

We were discussing your assertion that being an atheist requires declaring it :bugeye:
 
Its like the tree in the forest argument.

If no athiest ever declares himself, does atheism exist?
 
A person can have an opinion without telling a bunch of strangers on an internet forum what his/her religious beliefs happen to be.

If an opinion (or a value) is never stated in a social context, and never fought for in a social context,
then that opinion (or a value) has little chance to be respected and recognized by the wider society.

For example: If the early feminists would not loudly state their position and would not fight for it to be recognized and respected -
what do you think would happen with women's rights? Do you really think that women would be given the right to vote, to earn an equal salary for doing a work equal to men's and so on?
 
Not at all. One could believe that the natural universe has a moral code embedded in it (whatever the hell that means);

Whatever the hell that means, yeah ...



Morality is subjective implies that it is not the case that man is the highest moral instance

And who is it that declares 'morality is subjective'?
Someone or something other than man?


This should be obvious. If morality is subjective then there is no moral scale, no ruler and no way to judge who is better or greater or worse or evil. In fact, if one is a moral relativist, then one also holds that there is no such objective thing as "good" or "evil. Therefore there is no such objective thing as "the highest moral instance".

All of it spoken by a man!

Or do you wish to declare that someone or something else said it?
 
Why do we have to believe in "other things" if we don't believe in any God?

It's not that you would 'have to' believe in other things if you don't believe in God.
It's that you already believe in other things if you don't believe in God.

Of course, unless you think that it is possible to get by in life without believing in anything. For instance, if you think that it is possible to get by in life without believing that your senses are a reliable source of information, or that your reason is a good guide for you in your life, or that in order to get money you need to work or steal.


Theists have this distinct 'thing' about people needing to believe in something or other, as though not believing in any deity is somehow abnormal or goes against nature. Why is that?

Do you manage to go by in life without believing this or that to be the highest or at least most reliable instance?
 
signal said:
You don't see how 'not believing in any God' requires that one believe a number of other things?
Nope. There are all kinds of beliefs running around among the atheistic humans on this planet.
signal said:
For example, believing that 'man is the highest moral instance (because God is not)', or that 'morality is relative' (which are just a spin-offs of 'man is the highest moral instance')?
I don't believe either of those things, and I'm atheist.
SAM said:
Non believers in astrology exist and are present in each and every society. They just don't have a category, because ontological position on the effects of stars on human lives or not, they don't make enough noise about it to be recognised as such.
Among the societies in which astrology was/is central to the local theism, they have a category name.

They are atheists.
light said:
even more bizzarre would be if he said

"no, but you'll have to excuse me now since I am late for my sermon at the church"
Or to deliever the sermon.

A small but significant percentage of the clergy in every theistic religion is atheist.
SAM said:
If no athiest ever declares himself, does atheism exist?
Nope. It hardly exists anyway - these catchall categories are always a source fo confusion.
signal said:
It's that you already believe in other things if you don't believe in God.
But you don't know what they are, unless you ask the atheistic person.
signal said:
Do you manage to go by in life without believing this or that to be the highest or at least most reliable instance
Of course, in the case of things that do not form hierarchies easily or informatively.
signal said:
Not at all. One could believe that the natural universe has a moral code embedded in it (whatever the hell that means);

Whatever the hell that means, yeah ...
I happen to believe that natural humans have a built in tendency to develop moral codes of a certain pattern or kind. Is that obscure to you, or difficult to understand?
 
Last edited:
Its like the tree in the forest argument.

If no athiest ever declares himself, does atheism exist?

The tree still makes noise even if there is no one there to hear it.

LG said:
Well to begin with, it would be very difficult to understand how one could have (anti) religious beliefs or learnings that do not approach issues of category (Or to cut to the car chase, just try and indicate something that is not subject to issues of social context).
So as a theist, you should have absolutely no opinion and not be considered as existing when a discussions about atheism are held on this forum or in any other social context, correct?

After all, how could you possibly understand how one could have "(anti) religious beliefs or leanings" when you believe in God and religion, etc?

Does the word 'opinion' mean anything to you? I can have an opinion about atheism, theism, horses, cows, cats, dogs and any number of things without being or believing in any of those things. To say that it is impossible to discuss, and to go to the extent to say that one's existence is dominated by one's beliefs is a bit silly in my opinion.

It means you would be unable to participate in social discourse and there is no way for anyone to determine the existence of your opinions
Nonsense. I don't need to state my personal beliefs to be able to give an opinion about something. I can, for example, agree with both sides, thereby making me a fence sitter or I can agree with the arguments of one side while being a believer of the other side.

Signal said:
For example: If the early feminists would not loudly state their position and would not fight for it to be recognized and respected -
what do you think would happen with women's rights? Do you really think that women would be given the right to vote, to earn an equal salary for doing a work equal to men's and so on?
Do atheists need to stand up and fight for their rights in society like women had to against a patriarchal society who denied them their fundamental rights? There were many women who firmly believed in the women's rights movement and who did not believe they should have to fight for it, instead thinking that it should come to them as a matter of course, in short, expecting society to do what is right without having to be reminded of what is right.

It's not that you would 'have to' believe in other things if you don't believe in God.
It's that you already believe in other things if you don't believe in God.
Just as I could believe in God and believe in other things as well.

Of course, unless you think that it is possible to get by in life without believing in anything. For instance, if you think that it is possible to get by in life without believing that your senses are a reliable source of information, or that your reason is a good guide for you in your life, or that in order to get money you need to work or steal.
Which has what to do with religious or atheistic leanings?

Do you manage to go by in life without believing this or that to be the highest or at least most reliable instance?
There are people who are neither here nor there about the whole thing. Does that mean their opinion does not count if they don't state their exact position in regards to their personal beliefs? Do they cease to exist? No, they do not.

At the end of the day there are those who demand to know the personal beliefs of others so that they can then categorise them in their minds and in how they behave towards those people.
 
And who is it that declares 'morality is subjective'?
Someone or something other than man?
Why would it need to be something else that declares it?
All of it spoken by a man!

Or do you wish to declare that someone or something else said it?
What are you (failing and) trying to imply?

Why are so many people on this forum so lazy? Why can't you just state your opinion and make a logical argument? What's with all this unhelpful attempt at sarcasm rather than real discussion?
 
God vs. the Tooth Fairy?

S.A.M. said:

Do we have clubs of people who don't believe in UFOs, a festival for those who don't celebrate Christmas, a book for those who don't collect stamps?

Why even have a separate category for atheism?

Excepting Christmas, because, yes, there are festivals for other people, I think you're making a bit of a mistake.

I don't actually know how religious you are, but you are culturally sensitive along a religious boundary, and that's where I think your question hits its first wall.

Maybe you think God is the equivalent of UFOs, stamp collecting, or faeries, but most people apparently don't. And, presently, we do not have civil rights issues in front of society defined by whether or not someone collects stamps or has seen a UFO.

We do, however, in terms of religion. And you know this. Creationists in Kansas, premillennial dispensationalists attacking the Middle East, abortion, homosexuals, prayer in schools, &c. In Islamic nations, there is the question of whether you should be able to buy underwear without some man leering over you. Or the question of whether a newspaper should be shut down for not being Islamic enough.

Nobody's shutting down a newspaper because of the Tooth Fairy. If your bra doesn't fit, it's not some mischievous garden sprite. It's not the freakin' Reticulan Greys trying to teach children bad science.

Yes, atheism requires an identification because it represents a certain comparative condition. I mean hell, this has made it to federal court before because some idiot somewhere decided to argue that since atheism isn't a religion, it has no First Amendment protection and thus can be suppressed. In 1997, for instance, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals (NY, CT, VT) ruled that a county correctional system could not force a man to enter a religious-based alcohol treatment program against his beliefs.

Religious people, S.A.M., made this important. Consider Alcoholics Anonymous. Fully half of the twelve steps involve God (2-3, 5-7, 11). So imagine that a person who happens to be an atheist is sentenced in a public intoxication case to undergo AA counseling. Well, in order to pass the program—to be successful to the Court's satisfaction—that atheist would have to acknowledge the existence of God, beseech Him to help, and constantly pray to Him for understanding.

Now, what if it was you? And what if it was Jesus Christ? Could you fake your way through? Should you have to?

"Re-education" is often a sinister term. It would be in this case, too.

If people's ability to sustain themselves in society did not, from time to time, hinge on whether or not they believe in God, then I could agree that the atheists were out on a limb. But they're not, because the world doesn't work that way.

Something a little more concrete, the U.S. Supreme Court:

At one time, it was thought that this right merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Islam or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all. This conclusion derives support not only from the interest in respecting the individual's freedom of conscience, but also from the conviction that religious beliefs worthy of respect are the product of free and voluntary choice by the faithful, and from recognition of the fact that the political interest in forestalling intolerance extends beyond intolerance among Christian sects -- or even intolerance among "religions" -- to encompass intolerance of the disbeliever and the uncertain.

(Stevens, accent added)

And in an even earlier case:

The constitutional inhibition of legislation on the subject of religion has a double aspect. On the one hand, it forestalls compulsion by law of the acceptance of any creed or the practice of any form of worship. Freedom of conscience and freedom to adhere to such religious organization or form of worship as the individual may choose cannot be restricted by law.

(Roberts, accent added)

Choosing no religious expression is still a form of religious expression; it is relevant and defining in religious terms.

The answer, then, to your question—

"Why even have a separate category for atheism?"​

—is that it's that important to the religious people. If they could just let certain things go—say, the fact that someone doesn't believe in God—it would be a lot easier to get along.
______________________

Notes:

Clark, Curtis E. "Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says Court". The Academy of Metaphysical Naturalism Blog. September 15, 2008. http://freeassemblage.blogspot.com/2008/09/atheism-is-protected-by-law-austin.html

Alcoholics Anonymous. "The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous". AA.org. Accessed March 11, 2009. http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf

Stevens, J. John P. "Opinion of the Court". Wallace v. Jaffreee 472 U.S. 38. Supreme Court of the United States. June 4, 1985. Legal Information Institute at Cornell University Law School. Accessed March 11, 2009. http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0472_0038_ZO.html

Roberts, J. Owen J. "Opinion of the Court". Cantwell v. Connecticut 310 U.S. 296. Supreme Court of the United States. May 20, 1940. Legal Information Institute at Cornell University Law School. Accessed March 11, 2009. http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0310_0296_ZO.html
 
iassa said:
The answer, then, to your question—

"Why even have a separate category for atheism?"

—is that it's that important to the religious people. If they could just let certain things go—say, the fact that someone doesn't believe in God—it would be a lot easier to get along.

So the fact that, religious people started AA with God in it is a sign that they cannot let go? Thats an odd form of reasoning.
 
Did you just miss the point, or did it require some effort?

S.A.M. said:

So the fact that, religious people started AA with God in it is a sign that they cannot let go? Thats an odd form of reasoning.

Nay, m'lady. And I know you're not so superficial as that.

Here's a question I would appreciate a straight answer to: Under what circumstances should you be forced to worship a God you don't believe in?

Let's try that for starters and then work back to the larger context.
 
How are you forced to worship?

Going back on my experience in India, if I attend and participate in a pooja or mass with my friends am I being forced to worship their God?

Its all one God to me, so I really don't get nitpicky about what people say.

If I were attending an AA started by Catholics, I would not be surprised to find Jesus Christ there.

If I was paranoid about being contaminated by their worship, I would start my own Islamic AA.

I don't understand why atheists would want to remove God from AA for those that find it helpful to have religion as an aid rather than starting their own.
 
Hey Sam, trolling again about atheism??

Why does a negative position need to be recognised?

You know a definition by you for recognition would have been helpful. Certainly in Muslim countries atheists are not recognized...

But to answer your question, because they are the MINORITY in most countries and they usually don't enjoy same rights....
 
Back
Top