Shoot me down. Please.

[b0urgeoisie]

These ideas may sound crazy. (Vern you should preface everything you say with that phrase.) But, I can't find biblical evidence to discredit them. If you can give me a passage, from any book of scripture, that is contradictory, please post it here.

Ideas
#1. People existed in spirit before they came to earth.
#2. There are creatures in heaven that have never existed on the Earth.
#3. We will exist eternally after this life.

After some discussion of these first ideas, I will post more. Remember that I am not asking for what you believe. I am looking for passages only. So, even if you are 1,000,000% atheist, you can still participate.

 

[SkippingStones]

There are many definitions of spirit, and existence.
I'm pretty sure it says something about cherubim in Revelation, among other creatures.

Alas, almost any argument based on scripture is fraught with miscommunication.

 

[Cris]

It is quite likely that the human mind can imagine a near infinite number of fantasy ideas that the bible does not discredit.

What makes these fantasies any more relevant than any other?

Isn't this an excercse in futility?

 

[§outh§tar]

where did you hear that people existed in spirit before "coming to earth"? that is surely untrue.

 

[Halcyon]

There are many definitions of spirit, and existence.
I'm pretty sure it says something about cherubim in Revelation, among other creatures.

Don't take the things you read in Revelation too literally. It's widely held/known among biblical scholars to be a political statement against Caesar.

 

[Jenyar]

#2. There are creatures in heaven that have never existed on the Earth.
#3. We will exist eternally after this life.

#2. Do you mean angels?
#3. In what form? It's called an afterlife or "the next world". You won't find anything in the Bible contradicting that, except two: death itself, which later came to be equated with hell, and the Sadducees, who didn't believe in resurrection.

 

[Jenyar]

Halcyon,

Cherubim were depicted on the Ark of the covenant. Thousands of years before Revelation was even conceived.

 

[Adstar]

QUOTE=b0urgeoisie]These ideas may sound crazy. (Vern you should preface everything you say with that phrase.) But, I can't find biblical evidence to discredit them. If you can give me a passage, from any book of scripture, that is contradictory, please post it here.

Ideas
#1. People existed in spirit before they came to earth.
#2. There are creatures in heaven that have never existed on the Earth.
#3. We will exist eternally after this life.

After some discussion of these first ideas, I will post more. Remember that I am not asking for what you believe. I am looking for passages only. So, even if you are 1,000,000% atheist, you can still participate.[/QUOTE]


#1. People existed in spirit before they came to earth.

People existing before they came to earth is a mormon doctrine. They use predestination scriptures to support this. But predestination is a result of Gods foreknowledge i believe.



#2. There are creatures in heaven that have never existed on the Earth.

Revelation 4
2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. 5And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:


"Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!"

There is more scriptural support for living creatures in heaven than not in the bible



#3. We will exist eternally after this life.

Well that’s one of the central messages of scripture, we all will exist forever.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[b0urgeoisie]

It is quite likely that the human mind can imagine a near infinite number of fantasy ideas that the bible does not discredit.

What makes these fantasies any more relevant than any other?

Isn't this an excercse in futility?

No. I believe that the Bible does give credit to these ideas. That does not make them true. So, I am looking at them critically. I am examining potential flaws in my own theistic paradigm.

 

[b0urgeoisie]

where did you hear that people existed in spirit before "coming to earth"? that is surely untrue.

Please give scriptural evidence that is contrary.

 

[StarOfEight]

Don't take the things you read in Revelation too literally. It's widely held/known among biblical scholars to be a political statement against Caesar.

And isn't John a political statement against the Jews, and isn't Cain and Abel a political statement against the Canaanites? I mean, if you're going to discredit one book of the Bible because of the scholarship, I can't imagine there's too many that'd be left standing.

 

[b0urgeoisie]

And isn't John a political statement against the Jews, and isn't Cain and Abel a political statement against the Canaanites? I mean, if you're going to discredit one book of the Bible because of the scholarship, I can't imagine there's too many that'd be left standing.

Exactly. This is not a critical examination of the Bible. It is an examination of those three points.

 

[MacM]

Exactly. This is not a critical examination of the Bible. It is an examination of those three points.

Nice attempt to control the debate on three specific statements but what good is a loaded conclusion other than to smooth feathers.?

Saying the Bible doesn't exclude something makes it true would mean evolution must be true, Relativity must be true, Newton's view must be true (although both Newton and Relativity can't both be true).

Get my point?

 

[§outh§tar]

Please give scriptural evidence that is contrary.

Psalm 139

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.


As is quite OBVIOUS, creation is associated with the mother's womb and even in reference to the creation of humans from the soil, "woven together in the depths of the earth", we see that you cannot create a thing that already exists.

 

[MacM]

As is quite OBVIOUS, creation is associated with the mother's womb and even in reference to the creation of humans from the soil, "woven together in the depths of the earth", we see that you cannot create a thing that already exists.

Personally I would interprete what you say to mean that the Bible is describing evolution. Life arising from the soil (minerals) and being woven and formed. Sounds much more like evolution than God created Adam and then Eve from Adams rib.

 

[b0urgeoisie]

Nice attempt to control the debate on three specific statements but what good is a loaded conclusion other than to smooth feathers.?

Saying the Bible doesn't exclude something makes it true would mean evolution must be true, Relativity must be true, Newton's view must be true (although both Newton and Relativity can't both be true).

Get my point?

I am controlling the debate. I only care to hear from reflective believers and reflective non-believers. If you say I believe x because I believe x, we can't have any critical discussion. That does not give me a loaded conclusion. It removes meaningless data from the equation.
I didn't imply that anything not excluded by the Bible is true. If you are suggesting I did, you are distorting the truth.

 

[b0urgeoisie]

Psalm 139

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.


As is quite OBVIOUS, creation is associated with the mother's womb and even in reference to the creation of humans from the soil, "woven together in the depths of the earth", we see that you cannot create a thing that already exists.

Nothing is obvious from this passage. If you use it as you have tried to, then you must account for the creation in "the secret place". You must also account for the creation under the Earth. Also, what is meant by "unformed' body?
Finally, the term creation and "mother's womb" are seperate ideas. The author claims to have been created and then knit together in the womb.

 

[MacM]

I am controlling the debate. I only care to hear from reflective believers and reflective non-believers. If you say I believe x because I believe x, we can't have any critical discussion. That does not give me a loaded conclusion. It removes meaningless data from the equation.
I didn't imply that anything not excluded by the Bible is true. If you are suggesting I did, you are distorting the truth.

I'm not suggesting anything. that was my take on your conditions of discussing the issues.

Since I am not interested in scouring the Bible I'll butt out.

 

[MacM]

I am controlling the debate. I only care to hear from reflective believers and reflective non-believers. If you say I believe x because I believe x, we can't have any critical discussion. That does not give me a loaded conclusion. It removes meaningless data from the equation.
I didn't imply that anything not excluded by the Bible is true. If you are suggesting I did, you are distorting the truth.

I'm not suggesting anything. That was my take on your conditions of discussing the issues.

Since I am not interested in scouring the Bible, nor of anything it claims, I'll butt out.

 

[Jenyar]

Personally I would interprete what you say to mean that the Bible is describing evolution. Life arising from the soil (minerals) and being woven and formed. Sounds much more like evolution than God created Adam and then Eve from Adams rib.

Gen.1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.​

Food for thought, often overlooked. Although, for the creation of man:

Gen. 2:7 the LORD God formed adam from the adamah [dust] of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruach (Spirit)] of life, and the man became a living being.​