Sharia courts operating in Britain.

[Michael]

I've read the arguments and we will just have to see what happens. I've said time and again that I personally think that only education and integration is the solution.

Will a few people think they got a raw deal and turn to British courts? Perhaps a few. But, I think we'll need a hell of a lot more Islam before people are actually willing to pull their head of their arse. People's tenacity for stupidity is undeniable. Just look at how long and to what end people endured Christianity. It finally took a plague, mini ice age and discovery of an entirely new world to break it's grip. Conditions not likely to happen again. So, sure, perhaps sometime in the far far far off future Muslims will pull their collective heads out of their collective arses. But, I wouldn't hold my breath. If anything, we'll see Muslims become more superstitious not less. Take a look here and tell me what you don't see: Nasser's Funeral In the 1970s you couldn't find a woman in Egypt stupid enough to wear a veil, this morning I rode past two Aussie gilrs covered head to two with a tiny slit for their eyes. I'd call that regression, but, meh. That's just my opinion. Maybe it's just me but I think it's moronic to teach children to worship an Alien Overlord. Even MORE stupid is to give people that do teach such bullshit officially recognized moral authority in the form of judicial court!?! The pinnacle of stupidity.

Like I said, the British have finally crawled up into their own arses.



Tiassa, a few questions:

1) Would you approve of a Court of CoS in Londonstan? Why or Why not?
2) Should Sharia courts also handle murder cases?
3) Should Sharia courts be able to order the cutting off of a hand if ALL parties (including the condemned) agreed to this punishment? Why or why not? (I mean, meh, probably the person would, after losing their hand, think back and say, hey, you know, come to think of it I should have gone to a British court thus ushering in what should have never happened - the removal of a couple courts, or then again, it was never Sharia at fault, it was really ONLY THAT one judge - another Sharia court just found him guilty, off with his head.. all praise Allah and Papa Smurf)


We could write a book:
Sometime in the future - New Age Islamic Muslims from Londonstan have finally achieved enough political power to declare war on the ME and Indian apostate-Muslims. The British flag (with a little moon added) flys over Mecca where Old Age Muslims are again colonized and taught proper English. Any good NewAge Muslim from Londonstan knows the Qur'an could only truely be revealed in English - THAT was the secret all along... English, the world's perfect language, God's language, all praise Allah and Ron Hubbard the Last Prophet... With the economies crashing and cash becoming the main means of finance the British were grateful for all the money KSA pumped into Londonstand... the Mega Mosque truly signified a Godly beautiful skyline and heralded a New Age for the people of Britannia AND eventually for apostate Muslims in KSA itself....


If there's one thing we can count on, it's that history repeats itself...

 

[Asguard]

Michael whats your opinion on the intergrated traditional aborigional court in the australia legal system???????

 

[Michael]

It's an utter failure. As evidenced by the alienation and rapid decline of Aboriginal people in Sydney. The horrendous... just horrendous...goings on in North Australia. It's become NORMAL for children to be raped. Accepted they will raped. The men get away with it. There's an us versus them attitude. I'd rather protect my own then let whitey prosecute him. We'll deal with it sort of attitude. BUT, it isn't dealt with. The men run rampant up there. It's no longer legal to sell petro in the outback unless it has an addititive that makes it impossible to huff as a drug.

In short, just take a look at any aboriginal community and you'll see the system in place is destroying them not helping.

Solution - education and integration; NO more free handouts. A hard days work for a days pay. I knew an aboriginal who worked here at the Uni, he wanted to go surfing and so he went on a "walk about" for 5 months (still being f*cking paid) and went surfing then came back and walked right back onto the job. He did that often and it pissed everyone off. He should have been fired with NO pay. Done and Done. Everyone is Equal.

Also, I'd like to see Aboriginal language taught in school for a few years so ALL kids learn a little more of the culture.

 

[Asguard]

actually:
a) inspite of what was said about the "little children are sacred" report there was actually no evidence found that child sexual abuse was ANY higher in the aborigional community compared to the general populations. in fact not one procution came out of the report

b) the injustice your refering to was a case in the MAGISTRATES court. if it was in an aborigional cultural court the men would have been speared because thats there penelty for those crimes

 

[Michael]

Asguard,

This is off topic but:

1) Do you agree that alcohol is prohibited in some Aboriginal community's?
2) Do you agree that there is a petro sniffing problem and it's illegal to sell regular (sniffable) in some areas of the outback.
3) Do you think Aboriginal communities are doing well compared with wider Australia?

There's a problem in Aboriginal community I think the best solution is integration and education.

 

[Tiassa]

I hope you're right ... but, still ....

Not necessarily, we have some fine sharia courts in India.

This I do not doubt. But if we compare Sharia to general state courts, the potential disparity faced by Muslims in Britain is greater than in India. Among the challenges facing India's emergence are law enforcement and the administration of justice. Admittedly, how these troubles play into the arena of family law is a question I have yet to answer for myself.

Part of the broader question, however, is an issue of interpretations. To use an extreme example, some would assert that covering a woman from head to toe is a matter of providing women elevated respect. I, personally, reject that notion, but raise it here to remind that most Westerners, when considering Sharia courts, think of fundamentalist backwater institutions rife with corruption and misogyny. Some might look forward to the first showdown between British and Sharia law when some poor woman is sentenced to death by stoning for whatever, but I would be rather quite surprised if it ever came to that. While I disdain "separate but equal" as inherently unequal, I haven't so low an opinion of Britain or Islam in general as to believe that these courts would undertake such cases in the first place, or that, to the other, the Crown would be compelled to accept such a ruling.

Personally, I don't think British Sharia is going to go well. Still, Her Majesty seems somewhat determined to try this process insofar as it is progressing at all. And while the operation of a wise, rational Sharia court will inevitably shed some light on this mysterious assertion of justice that scares the bejeezus out of so many in the West, I do not think that, in the long run, it will provide any great benefit to British or European Muslims in and of itself.

 

[Asguard]

do you agree that removing the ability to goven ones own life CAUSES this disfuntion?
yes there is a 17 year life expectancy gap in remote communities, YES there is wide spread discrimination (which i can varify with my own eyes sadly) against aborigionals in country areas. hell it happens in city areas as well sadly.

i dont get the point of your questions

OF corse achole is banned in some aborigional communities, the goverments have banned it. what does that show? nothing really, the goverment controls liquor licencing and distibution everywhere. the consumption of achole is banned at the beach down the road from here what does that prove?

yes petrol sniffing is a problem caused by a lack of control over ones own life, whats the cause of croming that is happerning on the swanson street bridge near where i used to work in melbourne? (i watched it happen sadly, an aproxamtly 10 year old boy was doing it right in front of me)

i answered the third question above.

there are 2 seprate issues relating to aborigionals in regional and remote area's, lack of goverment services because of distance is one which effects not only aborigionals but the wider community as well and i really dont know what the solution is to this. i know there arnt enough doctors currently even for the outer metro areas so its no wonder that the rural and remote area's cant get the needed health services.

the same is true of education

there is however a further problem and thats one of our own making, that has to do with vilification and discrimination and the lack of any control over there own lives.

put yourself in there shoes for a moment, you live in the middle of australia, you cant access health services, education, proper housing anyway and the goverment accuses you of sexually abusing your children symply because you have red hair (or whatever it is). they accuse you of lasyness because there are no jobs in your area and irisponcability and they say THEY will decide how you spend your money. then they send in the army rather than the police you have been begging for and doctors to examin all your children to PROVE that your abusing them so that they can win and election

how would you react?

this isnt just the actions of the former goverment, state and territory goverments on both sides of the fence have been doing this since we invaded this country

i read an ordanance that predated federation in class the other day. if you give me a miniute i will go dig it up and write it on here and see wether if this was you how YOU would feel

 

[Tiassa]

Dancing and farting and slouching toward Bethlehem?

1) Would you approve of a Court of CoS in Londonstan? Why or Why not?

No. In the first place, I consider Scientology a bogus religion. It is, after all, a for-profit enterprise. Additionally, even if we set that aside, there is no genuine "Scientology culture" that has existed long, far, and wide in various forms through history.

2) Should Sharia courts also handle murder cases?

Depends on how those cases are tried. In the end, the question should become moot because I believe in equal protection under the law. I do not know specifically the Crown's stance on the issue.

3) Should Sharia courts be able to order the cutting off of a hand if ALL parties (including the condemned) agreed to this punishment? Why or why not?

No. Because this is the United Kingdom in the twenty-first century. Under what other circumstances would Her Majesty permit such treatment of people within Brittany? Lots of stupid shit happens out in the Commonwealth, but the government has, increasingly through recent centuries, followed a fairly steady arc toward a more equal justice, especially at home.

Such punishments, at best, serve an older idyll if any at all. In modern civilizations, they only degrade the society. If we have to get cold enough, you're fucking up the labor market and thus undermining the economic security of the state by hacking off limbs. Certainly, there are more humane considerations than columns in ledgers, but even if we have to get down to the cold rationalism that is economic theory, there's nothing to be gained by penal amputation.

We could write a book:
Sometime in the future - New Age Islamic Muslims from Londonstan have finally achieved enough political power to declare war on the ME and Indian apostate-Muslims. The British flag (with a little moon added) flys over Mecca where Old Age Muslims are again colonized and taught proper English. Any good NewAge Muslim from Londonstan knows the Qur'an could only truely be revealed in English - THAT was the secret all along... English, the world's perfect language, God's language, all praise Allah and Ron Hubbard the Last Prophet... With the economies crashing and cash becoming the main means of finance the British were grateful for all the money KSA pumped into Londonstand... the Mega Mosque truly signified a Godly beautiful skyline and heralded a New Age for the people of Britannia AND eventually for apostate Muslims in KSA itself....

Are you familiar with Kilgore Trout, whose stories, while making certain admirable and fundamental points about the human endeavor, inevitably fail to communicate any inherent point, and thus ends up being published in bottom-shelf porn rags?

All you're missing is the dancing, farting matchstick warning of the apocalypse.

 

[S.A.M.]

Asguard,

This is off topic but:

1) Do you agree that alcohol is prohibited in some Aboriginal community's?
2) Do you agree that there is a petro sniffing problem and it's illegal to sell regular (sniffable) in some areas of the outback.
3) Do you think Aboriginal communities are doing well compared with wider Australia?

There's a problem in Aboriginal community I think the best solution is integration and education.

Have you seen Rabbit Proof Fence?

 

[Asguard]

unfortunatly for both of us i cant find an electronic version of this so i will have to type it:

1848, No. 3
ordinance enacted by the governor of SA with the advice and concent of the legislative council of thereof.

To facilitate the admission of the Unsworn Testimony of the aborigional inhabitants of SA and the parts adjacent

21st of july 1884

....who are altogether uncivilized and are destitute of the knowlage of a GOD and of any fixed religious belife, and whereas in order to pevent the failure of justice and that crimes and offences commited with the privity of such uncivilised Persons might not go unpunished....

im not writing the full thing out because it would take me all day to copy but you get the drift. futher more the aborigionals were hunted like dingos to prevent them stealing sheep of the "rightfull land holders"

i sugest you watch this movie and actually think before you blindly follow the policies of the federal goverment on this one

http://www.kanyini.com/

 

[Asguard]

SAM i keep meaning to see that movie but i always forget about it, however the one i posted just above im sure would be along the same lines

 

[S.A.M.]

Rabbit Proof fence is very good. Its all about the good intentions of well meaning people who wanted to integrate the Abos. And the cost that the Abos paid for those delusions. Reminds me of what is happening to the Negev in Israel.

 

[Asguard]

did you look up Kanyini?
that is the documentry of a man who WAS one of the stolen generation

 

[Asguard]

Tiassa could you perhaps split this thread please

 

[Michael]

No. In the first place, I consider Scientology a bogus religion. It is, after all, a for-profit enterprise. Additionally, even if we set that aside, there is no genuine "Scientology culture" that has existed long, far, and wide in various forms through history.

Scientology is a recognized Religious belief on par with Christianity, Islam and many other superstitions. Cris joined a CoS temple and she said they were not interested in her money and were well meaning and mainly promoted community welfare and family values.

So, now with this better understanding of CoS, do you think CoS should have their own legal Judicial Courts?

Depends on how those cases are tried. In the end, the question should become moot because I believe in equal protection under the law. I do not know specifically the Crown's stance on the issue.

Well, this is where we truely differ. I simply think it’s asinine to have all these different paralleled legal system based on Religious superstitious mumbo jumbo recognized by the State. If they want to pass judgment as to what Allah or Xenu wants in their own house fine. BUT, the idea the the State is going to uphold a ruling based on Xenu or Allah!!?!? uke:

Brits should have a referendum on this.

No. Because this is the United Kingdom in the twenty-first century.

So what? Sharia Law is based on prehistoric religous superstitions and nomadic tradition and you just said you support it.

Do you support multiple parallel Religious Judicial Systems or not?

(It seems if you are already reinterpreting their Jurisprudence? Are you? If so, if you are putting your moral compass above theirs, then why in hell should a parallel system based on their superstitions and traditions exist in the first place? It shouldn't – done and done).

Are you familiar with Kilgore Trout, whose stories, while making certain admirable and fundamental points about the human endeavor, inevitably fail to communicate any inherent point, and thus ends up being published in bottom-shelf porn rags?

The last fiction I had a chance to read was by George RR Martin. Good fantasy

Anyway, if I could write a whole scifi story that even made it to the level of porn rag - I'd be more than happy with endeavors!

 

[Asguard]

you do realise there are already parral legal systems even in the offical legal system of australia dont you?

for instance the supreme court can hear the same cases which the family court takes
the surpreme court also hears cases which the guardianship board deals with

thats not even to mention the innurmeral tribunals like the tennancy tribunal which deals with cases the magistrates court could deal with or the jewish courts which deal with things the civil courts of australia like the family court have juristiction over

 

[Michael]

I'm looking forwards to the first CoS court and I'm wondering about opening a Jedi court...

 

[Asguard]

an artical on this very case (possably the same one)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece

"Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act. "

why should one religion be treated any differently from any other?

 

[Tiassa]

Scientology is a recognized Religious belief on par with Christianity, Islam and many other superstitions. Cris joined a CoS temple and she said they were not interested in her money and were well meaning and mainly promoted community welfare and family values.

So, now with this better understanding of CoS, do you think CoS should have their own legal Judicial Courts?

Can the patronizing bullshit. In a thousand years, when Scientology has built and lost empires, has a billion adherents, and sees its religious principles so inextricably intertwined with law and justice in diverse societies around the world, then you'll have a point.

Well, this is where we truely differ. I simply think it’s asinine to have all these different paralleled legal system based on Religious superstitious mumbo jumbo recognized by the State.

Actually, we don't differ that greatly. However, you seem so fixated on a narrow range of issues you consider applicable, you're overlooking that point. Like I said, the question should be moot. That it is not depends entirely on Her Majesty's government.

Or, in consideration of Asguard's point—

... if they were here they would still be subject to the law of the land ....

—that's how it goes in the United States, too. If it's different in England, this whole discussion takes on a new context.

I think the notion of "separate but equal" is untenable in this sense. Perhaps you noticed that? Or were you too busy vomiting?

So what? Sharia Law is based on prehistoric religous superstitions and nomadic tradition and you just said you support it.

See the prior points about equal protection and law of the land.

Do you support multiple parallel Religious Judicial Systems or not?

Hmm ....

• If your disdain for the American character can actually serve a purpose on this point, I would urge you to recall what happened when we tried to go with a "separate but equal" standard on this side of the Pond. (#18)

• Some might look forward to the first showdown between British and Sharia law when some poor woman is sentenced to death by stoning for whatever, but I would be rather quite surprised if it ever came to that. While I disdain "separate but equal" as inherently unequal, I haven't so low an opinion of Britain or Islam in general as to believe that these courts would undertake such cases in the first place, or that, to the other, the Crown would be compelled to accept such a ruling. (#26)

• In the end, the question should become moot because I believe in equal protection under the law. (#28)

• Under what other circumstances would Her Majesty permit such treatment of people within Brittany? Lots of stupid shit happens out in the Commonwealth, but the government has, increasingly through recent centuries, followed a fairly steady arc toward a more equal justice, especially at home. (ibid)​

I'm sorry that I haven't been clear on that point.

It seems if you are already reinterpreting their Jurisprudence? Are you?

To reiterate:

In the end, the question should become moot because I believe in equal protection under the law. I do not know specifically the Crown's stance on the issue. (#28)​

We might simply presume for the sake of argument—unless someone would like to clarify the issue—that in England the law of the land is arbitrary and there is no such thing as equal protection under the law. While I would find such a condition abhorrent and disgraceful, I'm looking at this situation from several thousand miles away.

So it seems to me that instead of wringing my hands in a numbskull panic and whining about the stupidity of the situation—

(There, are you happy? Is that what you want to hear? Is it that "inherently unequal" or "I don't think British Sharia is going to go well" is insufficient for you? Do you need me to call it stupid before you're satisfied? Fine. Whatever it takes to accommodate you. I have certainly said pettier things through the years. But I also think it's really fucking stupid that all we're supposed to do is whine like ninnies.)

—we might be better served by considering what rational, useful issues we can find. After all, if there is no equal protection in the British system, your point about spiteful idiocies like CoS and FSM are completely worthless.

Or we might take the long view, although it seems to me the very attempt to do so is somehow offensive to you. Perhaps it is too taxing to be rational and proportionate in such considerations. I mean, I did the best I could to take your question number three in post #21 seriously, but it's a stupid question. Or else I've severely overestimated my British neighbors, and soon enough the world will be rid of that particular poor excuse for a civilization.

So instead of screaming and crying about it, we might attempt to take a more rational outlook, and I'm sorry if that prospect offends the hell out of you. I've given my thoughts about what these courts will bring to British communities, but apparently that's unpalatable because I should just call it stupid. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! Waaaaah! Stupid!

Christ on a fucking pony, man.

 

[Michael]

Can the patronizing bullshit. In a thousand years, when Scientology has built and lost empires, has a billion adherents, and sees its religious principles so inextricably intertwined with law and justice in diverse societies around the world, then you'll have a point.

This part of your argument is a fallacy.

The point is not how old the faith is. Anyway, one could argue we should have Courts based on ancient Athenian Law, Hindu Law, Shinto Law, Buddhist Law ... .... etc.... I simply disagree.


I think this comes down to a perception of what multicultural means and what is acceptable in society. I am happy to see the integration of new cultures into our multiculture I am not happy to see Civil segregation.

I also think this is such a serious matter that the wider British community should put it to the vote. See what the majority of people think. I've mentioned many times that it seems to me many Muslims don’t integrate well. And this isn't' something I just *shit* out of my mouth. People from China, India, Japan and The Philippines to France and Spain are presently having integration problems. While it would be nice to think I'm just an bigotted ass hole as this makes the world a much simpler place, that's not the case. There is a problem. It's called fundamentally flawed superstition. I find the news that Muslims have found even more ways to segregate themselves of no surprise.

Ever heard of Chinese asking to have Tao courts? How about Hindu? Do Hindu expect separate Hindu courts? What about Shinto? Do the Japanese get separate courts? How about Buddhist? Catholic? Protestant?

I don't know? Do they?

The last thing we in the West should be doing is entertaining the notion of Religious based courts. That goes for Jewish courts as well – they should be private. If they want to have a Religious Rulings then that’s all very well and fine – BUT it should not be backed up by the State.


That’s my opinion I have laid out my rational, you very well can think me an intolerant ass for thinking it, but in the end I will stand by the notion that Superstitious Courts whether they be CoS, Islam, Tao, Jewish, Christian or what have you should NOT be enforced by the State. If they want to have them for themselves THAT'S FINE.


We’ll just wait and see what happens. Like I said, now with the credit crunch, I truly hope that KSA uses some of that hard-earned petro cash to build a mega Mosque downtown Londonstan so that the actual skyline of city can permanently and prominently reflect the idiocy of the people who dwell there.

Here's an example of why mixing Religious Law with Civil Law sucks salty balls and why the argument that because a Superstition is 1200 years old it is any more valid than 50 year old superstitious bullshit and what ultimately can happen when Civil secular governments mix up with Superstitious Belief:
3) Indonesia bans Islamic sect

Indonesia's Attorney General has banned a controversial Islamic sect from practising in the country. But the government has stopped short of disbanding the Ahmadiyah sect altogether.

It should be noted, this was a Muslims ruling against fellow Muslims. There's no West, no East, no Hindu, no colonization, no Jews, no one to blame. This is exactly what's wrong with Shiara Law in Britain.

Michael II