Shape of the universe discussion thread

[quantum_wave]

DRZ, I am going to respond to you from the QWC perspective in less than 1000 words so read it all and be kind enough to tell me if you are just not interested in what others call “too many words posted".

Though there are many reasonable possibilities, the QWC perspective is an internally consistent set of ideas developed over time on the Internet using collaboration and a methodology that I refer to as reasonable and responsible bottom up step by step speculation. In QWC I contend that everything works together (to the extent that it works at all as pointed out by the professionals). Take it for a grain of salt and I am not offended but attack it for violating science consensus and I will defend it because it starts with and accepts the consensus. Remember that the consensus cosmology does not even mention the cause of the intial expansion of our observable universe. Enough said by way of disclaimer.

Why do you say that it would reset after our Big Bang? Its possible that GR manifests itself differently in our universe than other universes, but I don't suppose it would disappear altogether anywhere in space.

There are many reasons. First,”reset” is a new word that appears for the first time in QWC in this thread. The idea of reset is meant to relate the common QWC occurrence of big crunches that burst into expanding arenas to the one occurrence that resulted in our expanding universe that many professionals describe using Big Bang Theory. I equate BBT to the combination of Einstein’s General Relativity with Inflation and Gold’s Cosmological Principle, modified of course for QWC. Of course that is a narrow perspective given that so much science has been built up from those theories but putting it simply, reset means that the geometry of our expanding observable universe could be the standard geometry of the greater universe and if so, each crunch/burst in QWC would simply reset that geometry to start from the tiny beginning of each arena and would apply to that arena as it expands and until it intersects and overlaps with adjacent arenas. That geometry may be spacetime if spacetime is reality, or it may be not-GR geometry if the reality is not spacetime.

Keep in mind that “reality” is not a scientific term but is more philosophical, just like describing a cosmology in words instead of math is not considered scientific to the professionals. To non-professionals it is how we talk and any self respecting professional would let us jabber among ourselves and maybe jabber with us, especially in a pseudoscience forum or any forum that is not dedicated to hard science.

In QWC physics remains the same across the greater universe and therefore the physics are the same in each arena for reasons I will relate below.

As you know, I have demoted our entire observable expanding “universe” to the status of a common arena; one of a potentially infinite number of such arenas in the greater universe.

Here is a list of things that can be said about an arena in QWC that might help you understand them and why they are essentially the same:

They form from the overlap of two or more arenas; parent arenas so to speak. I showed a couple of graphics earlier to portray the formation of an arena from two intersecting and overlapping arenas.

Arenas are essentially all alike and are characterized by “arena action” which is a process that starts from their formation in the overlap of parent arenas and continues on through the formation of the big crunch, the burst of the crunch into expansion, the formation of matter within the arena, the evolution of structure, stars, galaxies, accelerating expansion and eventual intersection and overlap with adjacent arenas. Arenas are all temporary to the extent that they ultimately expand until they intersect and overlap and thus their galactic material is recycled into the formation of subsequent crunch/bursts. Though an arena could potentially expand forever uninterrupted, they are always interrupted by intersection and overlap, and the galactic material caught up in the overlap and the resulting big crunch is said to be “contained”, i.e. removed from the expanding arena and diverted into a new big crunch.

The things that make arenas essentially the same and display the same physics, geometry too, is 1) that they are all connected through the arena process i.e. each have their “parent” arenas that display the common physics. 2) The nature of the energy commodity has natural laws that govern how it acts. 3) There is an energy background that consists of cosmic microwave emissions from an infinite heritage of arenas that have formed, radiated electromagnetic radiation that permeates all space and consists of not only the CMBR but dark matter, dark energy, galactic remnants in various stages of entropy, and anything else that lurks in the corridors between the intersecting arenas; this energy background surrounds the tiny big crunch, is homogeneous and isotropic with slight anisotropy, and is incorporated into the arena as the expanding energy from the burst equalizes with the background energy during expansion. 4) The finite amount of matter and energy in each arena is parsed out the same for each arena because arenas are quantized and the arena quantum of energy is the same for each arena. This is because when that arena quantum amount of energy is accumulated in the big crunch, that crunch bursts into expansion as it achieves the maximum possible energy density allowed by nature. That arena quantum is parsed out to the arena due to what is referred to as the critical capacity of a big crunch and it is essentially the same for each big crunch. Once critical capacity is reached the maximum possible energy density is achieved and the seeds of destruction of the crunch (i.e. its burst) are sown. 5) And other reasons that I have discussed from time to time in my threads.

Here is something I've been wondering about - could we have a universe the size of a ping pong ball? Assuming it is outside of the effects of gravitation of any other locality, is there any reason why such a universe could not exist?

There are many reasonable possibilities as I mentioned above, but from the QWC perspective, there is but one universe and it is referred to as the “greater universe” to distinguish it from the arenas that themselves are equivalent to our known expanding universe. All arenas are connected to each other through the way that they form from the intersection and overlap of similar arenas.

There is nowhere in the greater universe that has not been permeated by an infinite heritage of arenas that have played our or are playing out through the arena process, i.e. arena action. All space is occupied by the energy background and there are not expected to be any anomalies like a ping pong ball sized arena that has an independent existence.

Earlier you mentioned you thought our universe would expand forever and that must be from the single universe perspective vs. the QWC arena perspective. Tell me if you feel it is fantasy to discuss the arena nature of the greater universe or ask about the steps that have been placed in consecutive order to explain the thinking behind the arena nature of the greater universe.

 

[DRZion]

Hey QuantumWave, what do you think about dark matter? It seems that dark matter is usually found around galaxies (correct me if I'm wrong). This could be due to an interplay of quantum fluctuations with gravity wells. Perhaps the more distorted space-time is, the more fluctuations you get. Does this fit into your theory?

 

[DRZion]

Earlier you mentioned you thought our universe would expand forever and that must be from the single universe perspective vs. the QWC arena perspective. Tell me if you feel it is fantasy to discuss the arena nature of the greater universe or ask about the steps that have been placed in consecutive order to explain the thinking behind the arena nature of the greater universe.

What got you thinking that there should be multiple arenas in the first place? I think that arenas, or universes, are formed from exploding black holes. It follows that these arenas are well spaced out and there are very many of them. It does not matter that energy is constant in the universe; every time a black hole explodes a new family of particles is born to cope with the space-time of the black hole. It is very certain that the exploding black hole would create an environment unique; and given that it is isolated far enough from outside influences a universe should be born.

 

[prometheus]

That is why I am in Pseudoscience where words can be use to discuss ideas between non-professionals.

That's not quite true. You post in pseudo because your posts would be very short lived in Astro and Cosmo now that it's being properly moderated.

 

[quantum_wave]

That's not quite true. You post in pseudo because your posts would be very short lived in Astro and Cosmo now that it's being properly moderated.

That is true but QWC is not hard science and with the improvements in moderation it belongs in Pseudoscience.

 

[quantum_wave]

Hey QuantumWave, what do you think about dark matter? It seems that dark matter is usually found around galaxies (correct me if I'm wrong). This could be due to an interplay of quantum fluctuations with gravity wells. Perhaps the more distorted space-time is, the more fluctuations you get. Does this fit into your theory?

Dark matter in QWC terms:

Dark matter forms anew in every newly expanding arena when the expansion lowers the energy density of the expanding dense dark energy to the point where abundant matter formation occurs simultaneously across the entire arena.

Why simultaneously across the entire arena?
Why is it “dark”?
What is it made of?
Why does it lurk in and around galaxies more that intergalactic space?

Why simultaneously? It occurs simultaneously because the energy density across the entire arena during the early expansion is always equalized across the entire arena due to the nature of the energy commodity to equalize its density within any given space. Equalization occurs at or near the speed of light IMHO.

More on energy density equalization is contained in my various threads and it is a huge topic in QWC. One point worth mentioning here is that when the big crunch is mature and ready to burst it has a core of “dense state” energy which has a primary characteristic (aside from the fact that it is the prime example of the energy commodity itself) called expansion potential. It is confined within the compression of the outer crunch surrounding it until that outer containment is defeated by the expansion potential releasing the ball of dense dark energy into expansion.

Why is it “dark”? It is dark because it does not emit electromagnetic radiation. The emission of EM begins after the formation of charged particles. Photons exist throughout the arena from the CMBR but they are not emitted from within the arena during the dark matter formation period.

What is it made of? Dark matter is made of the dark energy when expansion has lowered the energy density to the threshold of abundant matter formation. By that time the arena contains both dark energy and the constituents of the energy background that I mentioned in the last post, i.e. EM from the CMB, dark matter from a history of arenas that have played out, old cold remnants of galactic material that didn’t get captured in the local crunch, etc. When the right energy density is achieved, the mix of dark energy and the constituents of the energy background, and the proper level of energy density all contribute to the dark matter that forms almost simultaneously across the entire arena.

Why does it lurk in and around galaxies more that intergalactic space? It lurks like that because it emits and feels gravity. After the entire arena becomes a sea of dark matter, the process of matter formation moves to building the fundamental particles that make up the Particle Model. Those particles with mass are composed of dark matter which is incorporated in the particle formation process and which is described in mainstream science as particle physics.

There is an evolution of structure in the arena that begins with the formation of dark matter, moves to particle formation and particle structure, hydrogen and early atoms, accumulation of hydrogen and early particles into huge fast burning stars, exploding stars a period of thermalization,, and the emergence of galactic structure. There are probably big differences between BBT and QWC during this process but QWC accepts the consensus to the point that it is supported by observation and data.

 

[Doc Richard]

Shaping up the original question

In the Beginning (of this thread) Quantum Wave asked:

"Does anyone object to adding a possible shape called "shapeless" when discussing non-GR alternative cosmologies that view the universe as spatially infinite?"

Call me old-fashioned if you must, but it seems to me that if the universe is viewed as spatially infinite*, it has to be shapeless, since the word "shape" refers to a boundary, and if it is infinite, it has no boundary.

But on the other hand, if the word "shapeless" is to have any kind of usable precision, it cannot be a kind of shape, because the "less" part of the word implies absence of the quality of shape.

*(which requires either no Big Bang or that it is possible for material to exceed the speed of light -does it not?)

 

[quantum_wave]

In the Beginning (of this thread) Quantum Wave asked:

"Does anyone object to adding a possible shape called "shapeless" when discussing non-GR alternative cosmologies that view the universe as spatially infinite?"

Call me old-fashioned if you must, but it seems to me that if the universe is viewed as spatially infinite*, it has to be shapeless, since the word "shape" refers to a boundary, and if it is infinite, it has no boundary.

That was my thinking also, i.e. boundless is shapeless. It was a play on words to refer to shapeless as a possible shape . Welcome and thanks for posting to my thread first.

But on the other hand, if the word "shapeless" is to have any kind of usable precision, it cannot be a kind of shape, because the "less" part of the word implies absence of the quality of shape.

Exactly.

*(which requires either no Big Bang or that it is possible for material to exceed the speed of light -does it not?)

No, at least not from my perspective. In Quantum Wave Cosmology the greater universe has always existed and is made up of three potential infinites, space, energy and time. To nit pick, in QWC it is actually all energy since space itself could be empty and would still be there even if there was no energy or matter (a vast nothingness which is the ultimate shapelessness), and matter is composed of energy in quantum increments as far as QWC is concerned. So it is not improper to refer to the universe as the energy commodity that takes various forms.

The Big Bang in QWC as you can tell just from reading this whole thread is a common event. The greater universe would be composed of a potentially infinite number of active arenas in various stages of intersecting, overlapping, overlaps collapsing into big crunches, crunches bursting as the critical capacity and maximum possible energy density are achieved, and expansion during which structure forms and the resulting galaxies move away from each other at an accelerating rate. These are the characteristics of the greater universe no matter where you are in it, i.e. the cosmological principle applies on a grand scale.

No need for anything to travel faster than the speed of light because all points in the greater universe have always existed and have always been filled with energy density that fluctuates due to quantum waves that spread in all directions. Every point in space is being traversed by extreme numbers of these waves and the net energy density at each point is the sum of the energy density of all of those waves.

I said earlier that I consider the standard cosmology to be BBT with Inflation and the Cosmological Principle. The Inflation part ala Alan Guth is not necessary or at least is open for discussion in QWC because the CMBR is present throughout the entire greater universe and completely surrounds the infant big crunch when the burst occurs. It doesn't have to be generated from within the expanding arena since it is already everywhere. That energy background is incorporated into the space that makes up the expanding arena as expansion proceeds. The incorporation occurs because of energy density equalization between the extremely high energy density of the expanding ball of dark energy and the extremely low energy density of the greater universe surrounding the crunch.

 

[quantum_wave]

What got you thinking that there should be multiple arenas in the first place? I think that arenas, or universes, are formed from exploding black holes. It follows that these arenas are well spaced out and there are very many of them. It does not matter that energy is constant in the universe; every time a black hole explodes a new family of particles is born to cope with the space-time of the black hole. It is very certain that the exploding black hole would create an environment unique; and given that it is isolated far enough from outside influences a universe should be born.

Let me address that:

What got you thinking that there should be multiple arenas in the first place?

This idea came about as a solution to the question, “What caused the initial expansion of our observable universe.”

In my Google document in section I. Step one of QWC, I address the thinking that lead to the idea of using a big crunch as the precondition to the Big Bang. The burst of the big crunch results in expansion of the arena; The burst is the QWC equivalent to the Big Bang and the arena is equivalent to our observable universe.

Once I decided that I liked the big crunch idea I applied the methodology, i.e. reasonable and responsible bottom up step by step speculation. The step following the big crunch idea has to be how does a big crunch form? Contemplation and collaboration lead to the ideas of the parent arenas which expand until interrupted. The interruption is the intersection and overlap of two parent arenas. A new crunch forms when gravity take over in the overlap area and the galactic material in the overlap collapses around the center of gravity of the overlap. Each parent arena would have formed in the same way and if you go back generation by generation you end up with a potentially infinite number of previous arenas.

Of course that step is closely followed by ideas about what could cause a crunch to burst and that discussion lead to the concept of a maximum possible energy density and the cessation of the functions of mass and gravity at or before that level of energy density is achieved in the core of the big crunch.

Once you apply the limit of energy density that leads to the burst of the big crunch, you realize that the amount of energy in a crunch is finite. A universe with infinite energy then makes possible the idea that there are a potentially infinite number of arenas at any given time. It is that limit of maximum energy density and the subsequent burst that keeps the entire universe from collapsing into one of these big crunches. In the regard, the term "big crunch" differs from the General Relativity version because it is not a final out come but a common outcome that is continually repeated for each of the potentially infinite number of arenas that could exist at any given time.

I think that arenas, or universes, are formed from exploding black holes.

I have noticed the discussion about exploding black holes and there are many reasonable possibilities. In QWC, black holes form from the collapse of stars as well as they exist in the center of most galaxies. These are tiny babies compared to the ultimate black hole that would necessarily have to contain the total energy of the entire known universe. My thinking is that the limit of energy density necessary to cause a big crunch to burst requires huge portions of two parent arenas to collapse into a single big crunch that is the equivalent of trillions of those baby black holes that you are referring to. That maximum level of energy density necessary to lead to the exploding or "burst" as I put it in QWC just cannot be achieved within one of our popular black holes IMHO.

It follows that these arenas are well spaced out and there are very many of them.

Yes, agreed. But I view the spacing of galaxies and their central black holes as a consequence of structure formation within an arena.

It does not matter that energy is constant in the universe; every time a black hole explodes a new family of particles is born to cope with the space-time of the black hole.

We differ on whether the process of matter formation is variable. I view it as a natural process related to the conditions that are similar and present in the period of abundant matter formation within every arena since all arenas are quite similar in QWC as explained in the previous post.

It is very certain that the exploding black hole would create an environment unique; and given that it is isolated far enough from outside influences a universe should be born.

Maybe so and there are many possibilities, QWC being just one. But in QWC each arena has a solid connection to the greater universe by being the product of existing arenas and that connection is one of the main reasons that I consider the physics to be consistent throughout the greater universe. The cosmological principle is important to cosmology and I’m not sure your suggestion complies to that principle as well as QWC does. In addition, even in your version doesn't the black hole explode into the space surrounding it. Though the energy density of that space is extremely low it contains the same constituents, i.e. CMBR, EM, dark matter, etc. and those constituents would become part of the expanding "new universe" that you are suggesting making at least some of the physics the same in each case.

 

[quantum_wave]

Maybe so and there are many possibilities, QWC being just one. But in QWC each arena has a solid connection to the greater universe by being the product of existing arenas and that connection is one of the main reasons that I consider the physics to be consistent throughout the greater universe. The cosmological principle is important to cosmology and I’m not sure your suggestion complies to that principle as well as QWC does. In addition, even in your version doesn't the black hole explode into the space surrounding it. Though the energy density of that space is extremely low it contains the same constituents, i.e. CMBR, EM, dark matter, etc. and those constituents would become part of the expanding "new universe" that you are suggesting making at least some of the physics the same in each case.

Let me follow up on this point.

Consider the greater universe a field of infinite proportions and consider the energy density of that field having control on the quantization of energy. Energy is quantized within a range of energy density. The energy density of the greater universe is within the range that energy is quantized but there are times and places within that unbounded field of quantized energy where the energy density gets too high to permit quantization. Those times and places are at the core of a big crunch in QWC.

When the crunch bursts it is a ball of dense dark energy, the energy commodity, unquantized. As the expansion lowers the energy density it falls back down to within the range where energy is quantized and the entire arena becomes quantized into energy quanta, i.e. dark matter that exerts and feels gravity. The dark matter of the arena forms simultaneously across the entire arena.

Once the newly formed dark matter is in place within the freshly expanding arena, the process of particle formation, charged particles, atoms, and larger structure begins to unfold. That process leads to the galactic structure of the mature arena and that arena is ready to play out its role by intersecting and overlapping with other arenas to perpetuate the arena process of the greater universe.

Thus in QWC the ideas of an infinite universe with an infinite variety of different types of universes all separate and immune to the physics of each other is replaced by one infinite universal field of quantized energy that is controlled by limits of energy density that only show themselves at the core of an ultimate black hole, i.e. at the core of a QWC big crunch.

 

[Diode-Man]

The universe is composed of spheres rotating around spheres.

If there is a finite amount of matter then the Universe has a shape, but I concluded a long time ago that it is infinite.

Spheres rotating around spheres at infinitum.

 

[DRZion]

It seems that there are spheres in the subatomic realm as well, oscillating back and forth.

 

[quantum_wave]

It seems that there are spheres in the subatomic realm as well, oscillating back and forth.

That is a good point. In my last post I should have taken the opportunity to link the arena level of QWC to the quantum level. Let me just repost it with that connection:

Consider the greater universe a field of infinite proportions and consider the energy density of that field controlling the quantization of energy. Energy is quantized within a range of energy density. The energy density of the greater universe is within the range that energy is quantized but there are times and places within that unbounded field of quantized energy where the energy density gets too high to permit quantization. Those times and places are in the core of a big crunches at the arena level of QWC, and in the high density spots at the quantum level.

When the crunch bursts it is a ball of dense dark energy, the energy commodity, unquantized. As the expansion lowers the energy density it falls back down to within the range where energy is quantized and the entire arena becomes quantized into energy quanta, i.e. dark matter that exerts and feels gravity. The dark matter of the arena forms simultaneously across the entire arena. Thus the connection is made between the arena level and the quantum level since the energy commodity that emerges from the burst of the big crunch is quantized into energy quanta that characterize the quantum level of QWC. The presence of energy quanta is maintained by quantum action as long as the energy density of the arena remains within the quantization range.

Once the newly formed dark matter is in place within the freshly expanding arena the process of particle formation, charged particles, atoms, and larger structure begins to unfold. That process leads to the galactic structure of the mature arena and that arena is ready to play out its role by intersecting and overlapping with other arenas to perpetuate the arena process of the greater universe.

Thus in QWC the ideas of an infinite universe with an infinite variety of different types of universes all separate and immune to the physics of each other is replaced by one infinite universal field of quantized energy that is controlled by limits of energy density. Those limits are activated in the core of the big crunch phase of arena action and at the high density spot phase of quantum action. Arena action that characterizes the greater universe has striking parallels to quantum action that characterizes the quantum level of Quantum Wave Cosmology.

 

[DRZion]

I apologize for not being too diligent about staying on top of the thread, I plan to pore over it in the near future with a more detailed response.

Why is it “dark”? It is dark because it does not emit electromagnetic radiation. The emission of EM begins after the formation of charged particles. Photons exist throughout the arena from the CMBR but they are not emitted from within the arena during the dark matter formation period.

A very good point. EM energy is emitted due to the oscillation of charges. Any oscillation will produce waves, the spectrum is defined by Planck's laws of radiation.

Why does it lurk in and around galaxies more that intergalactic space? It lurks like that because it emits and feels gravity. After the entire arena becomes a sea of dark matter, the process of matter formation moves to building the fundamental particles that make up the Particle Model. Those particles with mass are composed of dark matter which is incorporated in the particle formation process and which is described in mainstream science as particle physics.

A good point as well. Since Visible Matter is held together by gravity in galaxies and clusters, Dark Matter should as well.

However, there is reason to believe that Dark Matter does not act exactly as Visible Matter. It is known that dark matter accumulates in 'bubbles' around disk-like galaxies and affects their rotation. If the two were both equally affected than dark matter should also form a disk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_rotation_curve

No need for anything to travel faster than the speed of light because all points in the greater universe have always existed and have always been filled with energy density that fluctuates due to quantum waves that spread in all directions. Every point in space is being traversed by extreme numbers of these waves and the net energy density at each point is the sum of the energy density of all of those waves.

It has been hypothesized that the speed of light is not a fixed constant, and so it may be different in different arenas. Even in our universe the speed of light may be changing with time.

 

[quantum_wave]

I apologize for not being too diligent about staying on top of the thread, I plan to pore over it in the near future with a more detailed response.

Hang in there. There is not schedule or deadlines to participation.

However, there is reason to believe that Dark Matter does not act exactly as Visible Matter. It is known that dark matter accumulates in 'bubbles' around disk-like galaxies and affects their rotation. If the two were both equally affected than dark matter should also form a disk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_rotation_curve

The nature of dark matter in QWC is probably best described as cold dark remnants of the earliest phase of particle formation. Gravity emitting dark matter would confirm that energy occupies all space and that within a wide range of energy densities the energy in space is quantized. Dark matter would make up the vast majority of quantized energy.

If the idea that arenas form dark matter almost simultaneously across the entire arena in the early stage of expansion then it would be an extremely dense thermalized perfect black body. The current distribution of dark matter would have to be a result of the subsequent dynamics of galactic formation.

Ideas for discussion include charged particles forming and then atoms, especially hydrogen and helium forming quickly within the arena of dense dark matter. Slight perturbations from the initial big burst event might be responsible for the initial pattern of clumping of gases into structure that leads to stars. There could have been a first round of star formation that was characterized by extremely massive gaseous stars. These huge stars, primarily hydrogen and helium in quantities equivalent to the mass and energy of whole galaxies in the second round would burn out very rapidly. This first round of galactic proportion single stars would result in a pattern of rapid star death across the arena. If those star deaths left remnant black holes surrounded by the stellar remnants in a nova then that could establish the formation of a second round of star formation where millions of stars from in the locality of the dead first round star’s black hole. The nature of the resulting galaxies and the distribution of the dark matter would display various characteristics, various types of galaxies of various sizes. Possibly there are ongoing galactic processes that provide for the continual creation of new stars and the demise of old stars into the black hole resulting in near equilibrium which extends the life of galaxies themselves resulting in unsuspected dark matter distribution. Many galaxy types could have evolved over several rounds of star deaths and rebirths within individual galaxies from those dynamics.

It has been hypothesized that the speed of light is not a fixed constant, and so it may be different in different arenas. Even in our universe the speed of light may be changing with time.

There are good reasons to consider the speed of light to be invariant regardless of the reasonable possibility that over time and as the energy density of the arena changes that invariant speed could morph. The best reason may not be all that good but it is that special relativity would be a fact even if the speed of light did morph over billions of years. Special relativity deals with relativistic speeds of objects and no matter if the speed of light itself has some slight variability over eons, as objects approach the speed of light that slight variance would be unremarkable.

I would like to state a disclaimer about QWC and that is that it is built from the bottom up and not from the perspective of existing theory. The reason I mention that here is that the discussion of dark matter, matter formation, galactic and larger structure formation are fertile grounds for all sorts of theories that all stem from the standard cosmology. QWC does not incorporate any set of theories but instead it builds from step by step speculations starting from the general science consensus. We are in a known universe that is expanding.

A bottom up approach quickly leads to a scenario that diverges from the various theories because to explain the cause of expansion requires taking a position on preconditions and new physics. Existing theory does not have the convenience of tossing out new physic and does not encourage a consensus on preconditions to the Big Bang. QWC will necessarily be at odds with theory that must be based on the standard cosmology and known physics.

 

[quantum_wave]

I decided to branch off of this thread to a new thread to continue the QWC discussion. The new thread is "Limiting energy density and mass function range".

 

[AlphaNumeric]

and you acceptance of "thinking out loud" as long as it is not thinking out loud about QWC is hypocrisy.

There's a difference between thinking out loud and thinking outloud while believing your musings are any way constructive or methodical.

AN wants to talk about why my idea of shapelessness is meaningless which shows his ignorance on the subject.

If you can give an example of such structures and perhaps how you'd distinguish between them and those universes which possess a shape then I'd perhaps be able to see where you're coming from. As yet, I am not sure if the concept you're talking about is well defined. I'm trying to engage you in conversation.

AlphaNumeric believes that an example of a non-GR alternative cosmology is anti deSitter spacetime.

Where did I say that? AdS space is a well defined infinite space-time. It's particular properties include constant negative curvature (which equates to the GR description of dark energy) and has, despite being infinite, a well defined notion of a boundary, hence its use in the AdS/CFT correspondence. You have certainly put words in my mouth because not only do I know AdS is important to mainstream cosmology and particle physics I have work published which talks about it, from a cosmological point of view (and soon to have work from aq particle physics point of view). Perhaps if you actually engaged me in conversation and didn't fall back onto whining we'd get somewhere and you'd not need to paraphrase me to the point of you lying?

That is ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding or an intentional misdirection to promote his agenda to show that everything I want to discuss simply proves I am a crank. Anti de Sitter spacetime is a solution to the EFEs, i.e. GR.

*sigh* Rather than answer my questions you've simply lied about me in order to have a go at me. Do you honestly think I don't know about AdS space? Really? Shall I give you a link to work of mine which talks about it or will that result in your possum defense mechanicism kicking in and you ignoring me?

AN, if you can’t grasp the concept of a boundless universe that had no beginning because you believe that we couldn’t get to this point in time, i.e. now if the past was infinite, then why not say that. We covered that in the Zeno thread http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=95074 .

AdS is a well defined shape. You can obtain a nice visualisation of it by embedding it as a hyperbola in flat space-time.

When you say 'shapeless' I took it to mean that it is without any kind of nice geometry description, meaning it's something GR cannot describe. AdS is a well known space-time shape and so not something I'd class as 'shapeless'. You want to talk about 'shapeless' non-GR cosmology and then use as your example the GR description of a universe with negative cosmological constant, causing expansion!

You have continually trolled my threads about QWC with claims that I am a crank without using the quote feature to point to something I have said about Quantum Wave Cosmology (QWC) that is ignorant, uninformed or incorrect. Yet I have used the quote feature to show that you have moments of ignorance. Does that make you a crank? Your actions make you a crank. If there was a forum God you would be banned from Pseudoscience discussion for your insistence on hard science quantification and for claiming that people in general who discuss pseudoscience topics are ignorant of science.

*sigh* (again) I've tried to engage you in conversation, asking on topic and direct questions so that I (and others) can understand what you mean. The very fact you have been considering AdS as 'shapeless' means that you're working with a different definition to what some others might use. But if you don't want to explain yourself it's no skin off my nose....

And I didn't reply for quite a while because I've been a mixture of apathetic in regards to your ramblings, not in front of a computer and visiting my gf for her birthday and our 1 year anniversary. I'm sure it'll shock you to know its possible for people to get on with me in real life.

 

[quantum_wave]

You have taught me not to engage with you. Say what you want, but from my view what you say is filled with your twisted version and misrepresentations. I know you, I have read your posts, and I know your intentions are not to discuss anything with the likes of me and I guess you will never change. You couldn't possibly be interested in QWC and you have repeatedly said as much.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

You have taught me not to engage with you.

And yet you did last post I made, when you had a lot to say. And it's not like I've been 'fixating' on you in the last few days, you and I haven't even crossed paths. What could make your "I'm not listening" fingers-in-ears reaction kick in? Oh yes, that I pointed out you've lied repeatedly and you've got no come back.

Say what you want, but from my view what you say is filled with your twisted version and misrepresentations. .

Seriously?! Seriously?! You are the one who just got caught categorically twisting things I've said and putting words into my mouth. I tried to engage you in conversation, asking you to clarify the differ you just had a go at me and lied about me.

You ask for non-GR cosmology involving 'shapeless' space-times. AdS is the shape of GR cosmology, so why is it your example of non-GR shapeless space-time, after you'd said it was a solution to the Einstein Field Equations? I never mentioned AdS in my post a few days ago, yet you 'paraphrased me' (ie utterly made up) that I deny its validity. No, I deny it being 'shapeless'.

Further more, infinite cannot simply be synonymous with 'shapeless' as you can have different infinitely large space-times. Minkowski and AdS for instance. I previously asked you how you'd tell two infinitely large 'shapeless' space-times apart, you didn't want to reply.

I know you, I have read your posts, and I know your intentions are not to discuss anything with the likes of me and I guess you will never change.

Its there in black and white in this thread for anyone to read. I asked you relevant questions, I was much more polite than you've been and you have utterly refused to enter into any kind of rational discussion. The fault isn't at this end Chuckles.

You couldn't possibly be interested in QWC and you have repeatedly said as much.

You do realise it's possible to wonder about the overall structure of the universe in a QWC-less context? Pondering shapes and infinitely large structures for the universe doesn't need to be in a GR or a QWC context, it's somewhat independent of the underlying theory. Are any and all infinitely large structures 'shapeless'? Is there even one example? Is there more than one example? If so, how would you tell them apart from your little view of your corner of the universe? All of those can be discussed outside of GR or QWC. I didn't even mention QWC, I simply tried to discuss those questions.

The fact your example is AdS space, which is central to the current GR view of the universe, has a well defined boundary (despite being infinite) and can be viewed in terms of hyperbolic shapes goes to show you're not really sure what you're talking about. You've jumped down my thought for something I didn't actually say and you've got the hypocrisy to complain I'm twisting things?!

You're quite a sad little man, when it comes down to it, aren't you....

 

[quantum_wave]

...
You're quite a sad little man, when it comes down to it, aren't you....

No.

This thread did pretty well. Several people had appropriate comments and contributions. I like it when that happens.

I'd say the thread has played out so here is my view on the shape of the universe from my QWC perspective.

It boils down to absolute space vs. the interaction of masses; Newton, Mach, Einstein and others. But as I said earlier in the thread, QWC doesn't start with theory, it starts from observation and departure points where consensus on theory leaves off. So how does the shape of the universe relate to absolute space vs. the interaction of masses and the geometry of universe? Simple. There is no absolute space and there is no geometry of space. Space has always existed and is infinite. The inertia of mass within any given patch of space is an incomplete picture because the inertia of any object is connected to every other object, sooner or later.

There is an obvious problem with that view and any geometry. A geometry requires a finite organization of matter and energy; it cannot be boundless in shape (not talking "shape" as in open, closed or flat GR terms) and contain a finite amount of matter/energy. If matter and energy fill all space and space is infinite and has always existed, then matter and energy exist in infinite proportions; there is no shape and so it is boundless in QWC terms.

We observe our universe to be expanding and the expansion is accelerating. The consensus cosmology is BBT and Inflation, and BBT is GR and the cosmological principle in simple terms. When I compare QWC to GR and the cosmological principle I would have to say that QWC is a bigger picture. If there is a greater universe and if our observable expanding universe is just a piss in the ocean of infinite space filled infinitely with matter and energy, that demotes our observable universe to a mere arena and it demotes GR to what lies within the event horizon. OK, fine. As long as we are within our event horizon why not live under the rule of GR. But if the event horizon is ever interrupted by intersection and overlap with matter formerly undetected beyond the horizon then the concept of "within the event horizon" is no longer all there is for us to know.

What would that do to the inertia of mass within the event horizon. It would mean the there is a connection to mass beyond the event horizon and the inertia of everything in our observable expanding universe must be connected to the universe beyond the horizon that is evidenced by the interruption.

In the infinite universe, filled with an infinite amount of matter and energy, where energy cannot be created or destroyed and where entropy is defeated by arenas that expand, intersect, overlap, collapse into big crunches, and where big crunches burst when a limit to energy density is reached, then the result is a shapeless boundless perpetual universe.

I'm cutting and pasting the following from my thread on the Limiting Energy Density and Mass Function Range: "The greater universe itself would be homogeneous and isotropic. The landscape of the greater universe would be filled with arenas each like our observable universe, playing out the various stages of intersection with other arenas, overlap, collapse of the galactic matter caught in the overlap into a big crunch, big burst, expansion, intersection with other arenas, overlap, collapse, big crunch, big burst, you get the idea. There would be a potentially infinite number of arenas playing out at all times and an infinite history of time throughout which arenas have formed and played out. This would make for an energy background throughout the entire greater universe made up of CMBR which would be homogeneous and isotropic."

"There are two parts of the cosmological principle; one says that on a grand scale the universe should look the same in all directions from any point within it, and the other says it should look the same on a grand scale at all times past, and future. QWC complies both from a structure standpoint, i.e. the arenas, and from a background standpoint, i.e. CMBR."