Sexual Discrimination and Violence: Changing men's attitudes

[Tiassa]

A running discussion at present has focused on the precautions a woman should take in order to protect herself from rape and sexual harassment. These precautions arose initially in defense of sexual harassment, and became the focus of rape prevention in subsequent discussion.

To the other, though, is the proposition that men have an obligation to temper their conduct, and this notion seems somehow unpopular. Nonetheless, the following short paragraph from the University of California at Santa Cruz, entitled "UCSC Rape Prevention Education: How Men Can Help" has been presented, along with an inquiry about what is actually involved in fulfilling these suggestions:

By becoming involved. By speaking up when you hear other males stereotype women or make sexist and/or homophobic jokes and put-downs. By not conforming to the "traditional" male role as aggressor. By supporting other males who are challenging gender stereotypes. By examining your own attitudes. By supporting women in their efforts to gain equality. By refusing to support sexist media. By educating yourself through the many workshops, readings, films and events organized on campus. By talking with younger boys about these issues and encouraging their development away from control and aggression.

(UCSC)

Compared to an open-ended precaution theory that suggests there is always something more a woman can do to protect herself against rape or harassment, there is nothing here that seems particularly extreme. Nonetheless, we cannot pretend that these recommendations are actually simple tasks to fulfill. For instance, refusing to support sexist media? It is easy enough to not put down for the latest Girls Gone Wild, but what does that really mean? By talking with younger boys about these issues? Encouraging their development away from control and aggression? Who here pretends that a comfortable proposition? Do you just call the issue out of the blue sky? Wait and react when an occasion demands? Quite clearly, psychosocial conditioning is an extended commitment, a lifelong endeavor. Supporting males who challenge gender stereotypes? Can we expect people at large, or the challenging male himself to understand the fine distinction between breaking the mold and being annoying?

Given the prevalence of sexual discrimination and violence in our culture, it seems a generational proposition. To the other, though, if we never set out on the voyage, we shall never arrive anywhere.
______________________

Notes:

University of California at Santa Cruz. "UCSC Rape Prevention Education: How Men Can Help". Viewed June 12, 2008. http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/men.html

 

[visceral_instinct]

Good point. That's a motherfucker of a grey area if ever there was one.

Can we expect people at large, or the challenging male himself to understand the fine distinction between breaking the mold and being annoying?

I don't know about other people, but I would definitely be sympathetic to someone who erred on the side of being annoying. It takes courage, I think, for a male to stand up and be openly anti-sexist, especially the younger ones.

 

[John99]

Every case is different.

As far as sexual harassment: I (male) can be working for all females. We joke around a bit about sexual stuff and i laugh...we all laugh. It is all good. THEN one day i get pissed off because...it could be about anything. Well since i work for THEM they can tell me that i am being difficult (i am) and they no longer need me. NOW i have my ace in the hole. Go to the lawyer, lawyer gives instructions, preparations take place, practice for awhile and bam...i have myself a lawsuit.

Violence is always violence and rape is always rape. I dont think the OP has firm grasp of some basic concepts. I dont mean to be harsh but mixing things up and creating grey areas is very damaging. IMHO.

 

[visceral_instinct]

He wasn't mixing anything up or creating a grey area. He was asking for concrete ways to go about changing attitudes...I think...it's 12:45 and I'm out of it and need to sleep...

 

[John99]

You cannot discuss, sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and rape in the same few paragraphs without creating grey areas.

Then throwing in 'girls gone wild' videos? They are all drunk, 17-25 year olds getting drunk and what do you expect to happen? Female passes out or cannot walk in a straight line is prime target for horny males. Only solution is to not put themselves in that situation. Same for a male getting drunk and falling off of a balcony or killing someone in a car accident. In the latter example they will be prosecuted and held accountable.

 

[Bells]

You cannot discuss, sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and rape in the same few paragraphs without creating grey areas.

Then throwing in 'girls gone wild' videos? They are all drunk, 17-25 year olds getting drunk and what do you expect to happen? Female passes out or cannot walk in a straight line is prime target for horny males. Only solution is to not put themselves in that situation. Same for a male getting drunk and falling off of a balcony or killing someone in a car accident. In the latter example they will be prosecuted and held accountable.

So "horny males" should not have some semblance of self control? Is that what you're saying? That men cannot or should not have to control their own behaviour and others should act a certain way or behave a certain way because men are so lacking in self control? Tell me, does this apply to all males? Do you rape and sexually assault every single drunk or incapacitated woman you happen to come across? Or are you able to control your urges?

 

[visceral_instinct]

You cannot discuss, sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and rape in the same few paragraphs without creating grey areas.

Then throwing in 'girls gone wild' videos? They are all drunk, 17-25 year olds getting drunk and what do you expect to happen? Female passes out or cannot walk in a straight line is prime target for horny males. Only solution is to not put themselves in that situation. Same for a male getting drunk and falling off of a balcony or killing someone in a car accident. In the latter example they will be prosecuted and held accountable.

Female passes out or cannot walk in a straight line is prime target for horny males. Only solution is to not put themselves in that situation.

BOLLOCKS! The solution is for horny males to go find willing females, not assault semi-conscious ones who cannot fight back. Why is that so hard for people to get their brains around?

I am slight, average height and a girl, I could not commit rape even if I wanted to, but let's say for argument's sake I could...I would NOT get aroused by the idea of having sex with an almost unconscious male without his consent. It's not that I would have to restrain myself from doing so, the thought of doing something sexual to someone against their will just makes me recoil. Are men so different??!!

Same for a male getting drunk and falling off of a balcony or killing someone in a car accident. In the latter example they will be prosecuted and held accountable

No that doesn't even come close to an analogy. The pissed male in scenario 1 just happens to fall, or in 2) chooses to drive that car, no one forced anything on him against his will.

 

[Randwolf]

What sort of concrete ideas do you propose, tiassa?

Even if it is difficult, shouldn't a frank discussion of the topic be part of boy's / young men's education? Maybe as part of so called "sex education"?

What about women? Should this topic be raised with them as they are growing up? In what context?

 

[John99]

BOLLOCKS! The solution is for horny males to go find willing females, not assault semi-conscious ones who cannot fight back. Why is that so hard for people to get their brains around?

Because the males are intoxicated also. What many young people cannot get their brains around is that drugs and alcohol makes them do stupid things.

Personally i have never taken advantage of drunk women where they were not fully willing and conscious. Guys who do that are s***B*** or just really horny losers.

 

[Asguard]

i do have to agree with both bells and VI, expecially when talking about things like "girls gone wild" (though i do have to say, dont you people think that MOST of these are actually proffesional porn stars rather who are acting?). If a girl or guy is drunk they cant concent to sexual activity (under the new laws, though that does bring up a whole range of other areas like if they are responcable for assults if they are under the influance). There for it IS sexual assult or rape even if she/he "wants it"

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

John99

Gray areas and basic concepts, indeed. There are some (not so) subtle issues you seem to be having a problem with; as a result, you are providing an excellent example of a couple of aspects of the problem facing society.

First:

Then throwing in 'girls gone wild' videos?

I didn't realize that one of the most blatant and well-known examples of sexist media would be confusing.

In refusing to support sexist media, it is easy enough to avoid something so obvious. But what about FOX network's Bones? Why, for instance, must the beautiful, frigid scientist be shown the ways of the real world by the macho, allegedly cute half-wit? Can we get any more sexist than exploitative soap operas? What the hell to do about MTV? And what about the news media during the Democratic primary cycle?

The underlying question: What, exactly, does the proposition demand? Certainly, we might pat ourselves on the back for not wasting money on Girls Gone Wild, but there are more challenging issues about sexism and media to figure out.

As far as sexual harassment

Just out of curiosity, how often do (would) those women offer to insert a penis into your body? And how often would (do) you take up such an offer?

They are all drunk, 17-25 year olds getting drunk and what do you expect to happen? Female passes out or cannot walk in a straight line is prime target for horny males. Only solution is to not put themselves in that situation. Same for a male getting drunk and falling off of a balcony or killing someone in a car accident. In the latter example they will be prosecuted and held accountable.

Now this is a curious point. It seems a problematic comparison. You seem to be arguing that if a woman gets drunk and another person hurts her, she is as culpable as a man who gets drunk and hurts himself or another person. In other words, you seem to have asserted that a rapist is not responsible for his actions if a woman is drunk.

Is that really what you intended?

 

[John99]

Asguard, you dont know what you are talking about. Threre are no laws against being intoxicated while having sex. There are laws about signing video releases while intoxicated though. The idiot resonsible for girls gone wild got his ass into a lot of trouble. GOOD.

There for it IS sexual assult or rape even if she/he "wants it"

That is just not true. You and your wife get drunk and have sex...what do you call that?

 

[Asguard]

john im not actually sure, i asked bells to see if she could find that out for me because i dont know how the new laws are written. It COULD be that if someone sees you having sex with an intoxicated person that you can be charged regardless of what your partner says in court or it could be that they have to make a complaint AFTER the fact. Im hoping for the latter but i dont know.

Its the same set of changes that make having sex with someone who is asleep, or unconious or under the influance of drugs or achole illegal. I THINK this came out of the responce to the inquest into the women who died on the cruise ship but that could just be coincidence. There was a huge set of reforms to the sexual assult laws recently including how victoms give evidence in court ect in order to make the courts more victom friendly and i THINK this was part of those reforms

 

[Orleander]

so if they are both drunk why can't the guy claim she was raping him? He said/she said. Good luck proving that.

 

[John99]

First of all for single women to go out to bars to get smashed (bar hopping), especially young women is insane. At some point it is just a matter of luck that you make it home the way you left your house.

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

What sort of concrete ideas do you propose, tiassa?

Even if it is difficult, shouldn't a frank discussion of the topic be part of boy's / young men's education? Maybe as part of so called "sex education"?

A whole lot of little things. An obvious one is how we talk about other people and the examples we set in doing so. It is well-known that I don't have great appreciation for my daughter's mother. My former partner is a chronic liar and an example of someone who wanted to have a child as a fashion or status statement. Life goes on. The one thing I won't do—or, at least, that I try very hard not to do—is call her a bitch.

And here's a curious thing: what is the equivalent male insult? You know, the one that seeks to target a man and denigrate his manhood?

Faggot.

So right there you have two ways of insulting people that require a feminine or effeminate foundation.

That's a start. And it might seem like a really small thing, but when you've heard a nine year old calling his little sister a bitch and explaining to her how he's going to smack her shit up, the saddest thing is when it's not surprising. There are, of course, children from whom such outbursts would be very surprising, but in the case I'm thinking of, there is absolutely no question about where he picked up that kind of crap.

And, indeed, the traditional role of the male as aggressor must be reassessed. We're not chasing mammoths across the savannah, anymore. Maybe once upon a time, Mike Tyson would have been a tribal chief, but the age of the berserkers is long gone. Slaying the myth of studs and skanks will help, too.

Maybe these seem obvious, and that would be at least in part because they are. But that does not mean these are easy things to figure out. What did your father teach you? Mine? Seems like next to nothing. We never had "the talk", and his greatest gesture toward my manhood came on my eighteenth birthday, when he gave me a copy of Sam Keen's Fire in the Belly, which to this day I've never read all the way through. I'm sure there's something in there that slips my mind for being so obvious, but most of what I've learned about sex, sexuality, propriety, and manhood has been inferred on the fly as a witness to the disastrous effects of machismo unleashed against society.

And this is part of the problem: many men are perfectly willing to wag their finger and tell women how to act, in large part because we know the bogus justifications that have been put forward over time. But we don't seem to know what to do about ourselves, in large part because it has not been considered a proper reflection on manhood to invest our efforts in such ventures.

Personally, I start with very simple presuppositions—women are human beings, all people are equal before the law, &c.—and build from there as circumstance demands. It works to a degree, but it's not exactly getting ahead of the game.

What about women? Should this topic be raised with them as they are growing up? In what context?

What about them? You might try asking them.

One curious point I can relate, though, is that when I was in high school, the HIV scare was powerfully influential, to the point that the girls in my school were told to not open a wound on their attacker unless it was absolutely necessary. Instead, part of their instruction was to make the rape impractical or undesirable, with tactics ranging from making a lot of noise to defecation.

So let's stop and think about that. When was the last time you were in a position where shitting yourself was an advisable course of self-defense?

I mean, it still seems strange to me, but I went to a Jesuit high school, so who knows what they were pulling from?

But yeah, you ought to try asking women, and in a context that isn't intended to deflect attention from men's conduct.

 

[Randwolf]

Certainly, we might pat ourselves on the back for not wasting money on Girls Gone Wild, but there are more challenging issues about sexism and media to figure out.

Personally, I find "Girls Gone Wild" boring, but don't the "girls" in question have the right to act in this manner? Are you suggesting that this sort of behavior be banned?

Just out of curiosity, how often do (would) those women offer to insert a penis into your body?

You have penetration issues, don't you tiassa? Doesn't sexual discrimination kind of imply a bigger picture than the overt act of sexual intercourse?

Now this is a curious point. It seems a problematic comparison. You seem to be arguing that if a woman gets drunk and another person hurts her, she is as culpable as a man who gets drunk and hurts himself or another person. In other words, you seem to have asserted that a rapist is not responsible for his actions if a woman is drunk.

Isn't a rapist always, and solely, responsible for his (I guess /her) actions? Does this preclude the sensibility of a woman taking reasonable precautions, such as not getting stone drunk in an unsafe environment?

 

[Asguard]

tiassa, im sorry but self defence is an issue for ANYONE and not always for rape. I would sugest that MOST of the time people need to defend themselfs its from common law assult rather than sexual assult.

Though i do wonder why they wernt just shown how to punch to the throat which wont open a wound and will stop even the biggest atacker no matter what sex they are. Then there is also the puch to the nose or under the rib cage ect all of which will stop someone in an atempt to harm you. It sounds like the teachers in your school were just idiots though making alot of noise is a good idea no matter WHAT the dangious situation your in. Also scream rape or fire not HELP no matter if your actually being raped or there is a fire

 

[Randwolf]

A whole lot of little things. An obvious one is how we talk about other people and the examples we set in doing so. It is well-known that I don't have great appreciation for my daughter's mother. My former partner is a chronic liar and an example of someone who wanted to have a child as a fashion or status statement. Life goes on. The one thing I won't do—or, at least, that I try very hard not to do—is call her a bitch.

And here's a curious thing: what is the equivalent male insult? You know, the one that seeks to target a man and denigrate his manhood?

Faggot.

So right there you have two ways of insulting people that require a feminine or effeminate foundation.

That's a start. And it might seem like a really small thing, but when you've heard a nine year old calling his little sister a bitch and explaining to her how he's going to smack her shit up, the saddest thing is when it's not surprising. There are, of course, children from whom such outbursts would be very surprising, but in the case I'm thinking of, there is absolutely no question about where he picked up that kind of crap.

And, indeed, the traditional role of the male as aggressor must be reassessed. We're not chasing mammoths across the savannah, anymore. Maybe once upon a time, Mike Tyson would have been a tribal chief, but the age of the berserkers is long gone. Slaying the myth of studs and skanks will help, too.

Maybe these seem obvious, and that would be at least in part because they are. But that does not mean these are easy things to figure out. What did your father teach you? Mine? Seems like next to nothing. We never had "the talk", and his greatest gesture toward my manhood came on my eighteenth birthday, when he gave me a copy of Sam Keen's Fire in the Belly, which to this day I've never read all the way through. I'm sure there's something in there that slips my mind for being so obvious, but most of what I've learned about sex, sexuality, propriety, and manhood has been inferred on the fly as a witness to the disastrous effects of machismo unleashed against society.

Well, I must say, this seems to be your most detailed effort to date.

And this is part of the problem: many men are perfectly willing to wag their finger and tell women how to act, in large part because we know the bogus justifications that have been put forward over time. But we don't seem to know what to do about ourselves, in large part because it has not been considered a proper reflection on manhood to invest our efforts in such ventures.

Some men accept women as equal participants in the endeavor of life, and believe that our actions as men and women influence our futures. This can be applied in a more concrete, individualistic manner, as opposed to some sort of macro social experiment. I am certainly not saying that education, social reformation, etc. do not have a place, but the question is, what can we, as individuals, do tomorrow to improve our lot?

What about them? You might try asking them.

Maybe if I encountered a thread discussing the premise of "What, if anything, can a woman do to reduce her exposure to sexual discrimination, and by extension, her likelihood of suffering sexual assault?", I would.

So let's stop and think about that. When was the last time you were in a position where shitting yourself was an advisable course of self-defense?

Honestly, tiassa, I have never been in such a position. However, considering the magnitude of the results of the alternative (rape), I would not hesitate to take the course of "shitting myself" if that was expedient. Hopefully, I would have the opportunity to go back, catch the perpetrator and drown him in his own shit, but that is another story. Point is, "shitting yourself" seems a sensible precaution in a situation such as this, if it will prevent actual rape.

But yeah, you ought to try asking women, and in a context that isn't intended to deflect attention from men's conduct.

Well, let's ask. Ladies, what are your thoughts?

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

Personally, I find "Girls Gone Wild" boring, but don't the "girls" in question have the right to act in this manner? Are you suggesting that this sort of behavior be banned?

That's quite a leap, and counterintuitive.

You have penetration issues, don't you tiassa?

Well, I'm toying with a hypothesis. I'm wondering what the correlation is between inflexible masculinism and penetration.

Doesn't sexual discrimination kind of imply a bigger picture than the overt act of sexual intercourse?

Indeed. Recall that this is part of a "running discussion" that "has focused on the precautions a woman should take in order to protect herself from rape and sexual harassment". You know, as described in the first sentence of the topic post.

Isn't a rapist always, and solely, responsible for his (I guess /her) actions? Does this preclude the sensibility of a woman taking reasonable precautions, such as not getting stone drunk in an unsafe environment?

Always riding to the rescue, aren't you, Randwolf? So noble. Whenever someone is called out for the appearance of advocating rape or dismissing the culpability of the rapist, here you come to turn our attention back to women and why it's their fault.

Getting stone drunk is unhealthy for anyone. Beyond that, if the implication is, as John99 has expressed, that men under the influence cannot restrain themselves, then perhaps men should not drink at all.

Gee, thanks, guys. I'll make sure to raise a glass and a finger in your honor this weekend. And I'll make sure it's Knob Creek.

• • •​

tiassa, im sorry but self defence is an issue for ANYONE and not always for rape. I would sugest that MOST of the time people need to defend themselfs its from common law assult rather than sexual assult.

Indeed.

The counterpoint, though, is how much time people should expect to dedicate to mitigating the fact that we just don't want to treat each other decently. You know, the macho answer always sounds good, but it does nothing about the problem itself.

Though i do wonder why they wernt just shown how to punch to the throat which wont open a wound and will stop even the biggest atacker no matter what sex they are. Then there is also the puch to the nose or under the rib cage ect all of which will stop someone in an atempt to harm you. It sounds like the teachers in your school were just idiots though making alot of noise is a good idea no matter WHAT the dangious situation your in. Also scream rape or fire not HELP no matter if your actually being raped or there is a fire

Well, on the one hand, it was a Jesuit school. To the other, though, I wasn't privy to the whole lecture. Rather, I just heard about some of the spectacular parts before Melanie and I got busted passing notes in class.