Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke

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Big brass balls to demand other people respond to his points while ignoring theirs.
Yep. Generally he argues until his arguments fall apart, then either stops replying or starts making ridiculous demands (like "respond to my imaginary points or I will refuse to reply!") to try to end it while he is "ahead." Or starts with the insults.

It would be sad to have a faith that was built on that kind of sand.
 
Yep. Generally he argues until his arguments fall apart, then either stops replying or starts making ridiculous demands (like "respond to my imaginary points or I will refuse to reply!") to try to end it while he is "ahead." Or starts with the insults.

It would be sad to have a faith that was built on that kind of sand.
Errorist, as ever was.
 
Yep. Generally he argues until his arguments fall apart, then either stops replying or starts making ridiculous demands (like "respond to my imaginary points or I will refuse to reply!") to try to end it while he is "ahead." Or starts with the insults.

It would be sad to have a faith that was built on that kind of sand.

How you can blatantly lie, like that, is quite astounding.

Jan.
 
So what?
It's not my claim, but it makes a whole lot of sense.
Why wouldn't I post it?
It's your claim, posted by you as the title of the thread.
And it's false: the scientists discovered nothing of the kind.
Whether that is reason enough not to post it is your lookout.
To the discussion.
"Others arecompletely conscious of theiracceptance or lack of same. "
That's your quote.
Yes. Now go back and notice what it was about. It was not about atheists accepting God, as you claimed.
 
It's your claim, posted by you as the title of the thread.

I claim that it makes sense, which is the reason why I started this thread.

And it's false: the scientists discovered nothing of the kind.

That's your opinion.
I'm of a different opinion.

Whether that is reason enough not to post it is your lookout.

That's not why I posted it.

To the discussion.

You're the one who personalised God in that way. So it is central to you.

Yes. Now go back and notice what it was about. It was not about atheists accepting God, as you claimed.

It's not clear.

Jan.
 
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How you can blatantly lie, like that, is quite astounding.
No need to lie. Anyone who wants to see you in action can just read your posts here. I just summarized.

I noticed you gave up on our discussion when you started to lose the argument quite badly. And so you switched to insults, which is your usual MO.
 
I noticed you gave up on our discussion when you started to lose the argument quite badly. And so you switched to insults, which is your usual MO.

Are you kidding?:D

You claimed that people worship different God's (upper-case G?).
Not only is that observationally wrong, it is logically wrong .

After failing to back your claim, legitimately, you cited the 'Trimurti ".
Wrongfully claiming that these were (3) God's (upper-case G). And people worship them as God (upper-case G). I showed you, via vedic shlokas, that this was not the case. Vishnu, and Vishnu alone, is God. The Original Cause of ALL causes.

The problem is, you don't know what you're talking about, and you're doing it with confidence.

As for me dishing out insults, you couldn't be further from the truth. It is respectful to point out where the person you are discussing with, has no real clue what they are talking about. Or if they are purposely being obtuse. Hopefully that way they may refrain from such behaviour. To carry on acting in that negative way, despite being informed, on more than one occasion, is insulting.

Jan.
 
Are you kidding?:D

You claimed that people worship different God's (upper-case G?).
Yes. And then I backed that up with facts and citations.
Wrongfully claiming that these were (3) God's (upper-case G). And people worship them as God (upper-case G).
Nope. I claimed that there are two sorts of polytheists - hard and soft. "Hard" polytheism posits that there are separate Gods, each with their own agendas, areas of responsibility and appearance. They are often in conflict (i.e. ancient Greek mythology.) "Soft" polytheism is what you describe above - "there are innumerable gods, but one God."

You don't believe any hard polytheists exist. Which I find pretty funny; again, I would love to see you explain to such a person that his belief doesn't exist.
As for me dishing out insults, you couldn't be further from the truth. It is respectful to point out where the person you are discussing with, has no real clue what they are talking about. Or if they are purposely being obtuse. Hopefully that way they may refrain from such behaviour. To carry on acting in that negative way, despite being informed, on more than one occasion, is insulting.
Yes, it is. We all hope you will discontinue it - but don't hold out much hope.
 
I claim that it makes sense, which is the reason why I started this thread.
The title of the thread makes a false claim about a scientific research report.
That's your opinion.
I'm of a different opinion.
That's now your posted reason for posting a false claim about a scientific research report.
You're the one who personalised God in that way
I am not the one who personalized God, in any way.
Yes. Now go back and notice what it was about. It was not about atheists accepting God, as you claimed.
It's not clear.
It is. Consciously accepting God is clearly different from consciously not accepting God, for example. The word "not" is significant, in English.
 
Yes. And then I backed that up with facts and citations.
Your ideas about the trimurti are not factual.

Contrary to popular understanding, Hindus recognise one God, Brahman, the eternal origin who is the cause and foundation of all existence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/beliefs/intro_1.shtml

You probably don't want to really understand the topic fully, but in brief, there is controversy in hinduism whether Brahman is underpinned by an ultimately personal form or impersonal form.

Those who worship Vishnu advocate the personal form (vaisnavism) and those who worship Siva advocate the impersonal form (Shaivism or its close counterpart Shaktism).
IOW the worship of the personal form of Siva is just a convenient means of address by people (who, so they say, have no ultimate personal form) to something greater that (also, so they say) has no personal form.
IOW the Saivites/Shaktas subscribe to the view that the variety of this world is illusion, yet for the sake of convenience, they worship the form of Siva as the (illusory) fountainhead of such energy. To make matters even more complicated, sometimes even Vishnu is worshipped in the same illusory capacity, although such worship (advaita vedantism) remains distinct from vaishnavism

Tl:dr ... the big question in hinduism is about whether brahman (impersonal undifferentiated oneness) is underpinned by a personal or impersonal form. Any reference to so called polytheism is simply a front to this question.

Nope. I claimed that there are two sorts of polytheists - hard and soft. "Hard" polytheism posits that there are separate Gods, each with their own agendas, areas of responsibility and appearance. They are often in conflict (i.e. ancient Greek mythology.) "Soft" polytheism is what you describe above - "there are innumerable gods, but one God."

Technically the variety of worship arising from brahman is not soft polytheism. It is not based on dealing with ideas of mere forces of nature (wind, fire, etc) being worshipped as ultimately personal or impersonal, but rather whether reality itself is actually dualistic (ie made up of God and his contingent potencies) or monistic (ie made up of the one substance which takes the form of variety by the agency of illusion).
 
You probably don't want to really understand the topic fully, but in brief, there is controversy in hinduism whether Brahman is underpinned by an ultimately personal form or impersonal form.
Do you think that Hinduism is the only polytheistic religion out there, or that all Hindus share the same beliefs in that religion?
Technically the variety of worship arising from brahman is not soft polytheism. It is not based on dealing with ideas of mere forces of nature (wind, fire, etc) being worshipped as ultimately personal or impersonal . . .
That's not the definition of soft polytheism.
 
Do you think that Hinduism is the only polytheistic religion out there, or that all Hindus share the same beliefs in that religion?

I think you don't understand hinduism beyond a few brief minutes on wiki.
 
The title of the thread makes a false claim about a scientific research report.

So what is the the true result of the research?

That's now your posted reason for posting a false claim about a scientific research report.

The title alone, let alone the research makes sense, which is the reason why I posted it. Obviously something about the article rings a bell with you, why you are in denial mode.

I am not the one who personalized God, in any way.

If you say "my God" or "your God", or some "religious institutes God" then you have personalised God.If God Is,
God, is your God, also. It doesn't change because of your atheism.

It is. Consciously accepting God is clearly different from consciously not accepting God, for example. The word "not" is significant, in English.

What about subconsciously accepting God, but consciously denying, and rejecting God. Do you think that is possible?

Jan.
 
So what is the the true result of the research?
The research you cited in your opening post?

Maybe you should have worked that out before letting 315 posts go by.

Let's step through the article to extract relevant findings, as reported, shall we? The following quotes are from the article.

[URL='http://www.science20.com/profile/nury_vittachi']Nury Vittachi[/URL] said:
Cognitive scientists are becoming increasingly aware that a metaphysical outlook may be so deeply ingrained in human thought processes that it cannot be expunged.
Result 1: a metaphysical outlook appears to be deeply ingrained in human thought processes.

Caveat: A "metaphysical outlook" does not equate with theism.

While this idea may seem outlandish—after all, it seems easy to decide not to believe in God—evidence from several disciplines indicates that what you actually believe is not a decision you make for yourself. Your fundamental beliefs are decided by much deeper levels of consciousness, and some may well be more or less set in stone.
Result 2: fundamental beliefs are formed subconsciously.

This line of thought has led to some scientists claiming that “atheism is psychologically impossible because of the way humans think,” says Graham Lawton, an avowed atheist himself, writing in the New Scientist.
The scientists who supposedly make the claim that "atheism is psychologically impossible" are not named. This is commentary, not a finding of research.

“They point to studies showing, for example, that even people who claim to be committed atheists tacitly hold religious beliefs, such as the existence of an immortal soul.”
Result 3

Caveat: It is not necessarily true that all people who claim to be atheists hold religious beliefs, though certainly some do.

This shouldn’t come as a surprise, since we are born believers, not atheists, scientists say. Humans are pattern-seekers from birth, with a belief in karma, or cosmic justice, as our default setting. “A slew of cognitive traits predisposes us to faith,” writes Pascal Boyer in Nature, the science journal, adding that people “are only aware of some of their religious ideas”.
Result 4: human pattern-seeking predisposes people to believe in gods or other religious ideas.

Caveat: a general predisposition does not imply that belief is inevitable in all people.

Scientists have discovered that “invisible friends” are not something reserved for children. We all have them, and encounter them often in the form of interior monologues. As we experience events, we mentally tell a non-present listener about it.
Result 5: people have interior monologues.

The imagined listener may be a spouse, it may be Jesus or Buddha or it may be no one in particular. It’s just how the way the human mind processes facts. The identity, tangibility or existence of the listener is irrelevant.
Result 6: The interior monologue is sometimes interpreted as an external entity (e.g. a religious figure). This is through a process of imagination.

“From childhood, people form enduring, stable and important relationships with fictional characters, imaginary friends, deceased relatives, unseen heroes and fantasized mates,” says Boyer of Washington University, himself an atheist.
Result 7: Some people imagine complex relationships with the imagined entities representing their interior monologues.

This feeling of having an awareness of another consciousness might simply be the way our natural operating system works.
This is not a research finding, but is the writer's interpretation. No mention has been made of any "other consciousness" at this point in the article. The author is injecting this idea at this point.

In the United States, 38% of people who identified themselves as atheist or agnostic went on to claim to believe in a God or a Higher Power (Pew Forum, “Religion and the Unaffiliated”, 2012).
Result 3 again. See above.

While the UK is often defined as an irreligious place, a recent survey by Theos, a think tank, found that very few people—only 13 per cent of adults—agreed with the statement “humans are purely material beings with no spiritual element”. For the vast majority of us, unseen realities are very present.
Result 8: Most people hold a dualist view of what a human being is, and believe humans are not "purely material".

Caveat: there is zero evidence that this view is correct.

When researchers asked people whether they had taken part in esoteric spiritual practices such as having a Reiki session or having their aura read, the results were almost identical (between 38 and 40%) for people who defined themselves as religious, non-religious or atheist.
Result 9: Lots of people have participated in pseudoscientific sessions at one time or another, regardless of their religious beliefs.

The implication is that we all believe in a not dissimilar range of tangible and intangible realities.
This is author's commentary. This is not implied by any of the quoted research results, but is injected by the author.

Whether a particular brand of higher consciousness is included in that list (“I believe in God”, “I believe in some sort of higher force”, “I believe in no higher consciousness”) is little more than a detail.
This is quite a stretch by the author, but in for a penny, in for a pound, after the last claim.
 
(continued...)

Social scientists have long believed that the emotional depth and complexity of the human mind means that mindful, self-aware people necessarily suffer from deep existential dread. Spiritual beliefs evolved over thousands of years as nature’s way to help us balance this out and go on functioning.
This is not a research finding, but a belief that "social scientists" have, apparently. It is speculation.

If a loved one dies, even many anti-religious people usually feel a need for a farewell ritual, complete with readings from old books and intoned declarations that are not unlike prayers.
Again, not research, but a generalisation. Probably a fair one, apart from the tacked-on bit about prayer at the end. (Did you see what the author tried to do there?)

In war situations, commanders frequently comment that atheist soldiers pray far more than they think they do.
Unverified anecdote. At this point, the author's bias is really starting to shine through.

Statistics show that the majority of people who stop being part of organized religious groups don’t become committed atheists, but retain a mental model in which “The Universe” somehow has a purpose for humanity.
Result 10: most people who dump organised religion tend to retain a mental model in which the universe is "purposeful".

Caveat: The source of the "statistics" is not cited.

In the US, only 20 per cent of people have no religious affiliation, but of these, only one in ten say they are atheists. The majority are “nothing in particular” according to figures published in New Scientist.
Result 11: Of the "no religion" census group (20% of the population), one-tenth say they are atheists (2% of the population).

There are other, more socially-oriented evolutionary purposes, too. Religious communities grow faster, since people behave better (referring to the general majority over the millennia, as opposed to minority extremists highlighted by the media on any given day).
No particular research is cited for the claim that religious communities grow faster. (Faster than what? Communities populated entirely by atheists? Where are those communities?)

Why is this so? Religious folk attend weekly lectures on morality, read portions of respected books about the subject on a daily basis and regularly discuss the subject in groups, so it would be inevitable that some of this guidance sinks in.
Assumption by the author, again showing his bias.

There is also the notion that the presence of an invisible moralistic presence makes misdemeanors harder to commit. “People who think they are being watched tend to behave themselves and cooperate more,” says the New Scientist’s Lawton. “Societies that chanced on the idea of supernatural surveillance were likely to have been more successful than those that didn't, further spreading religious ideas.”
Result 12: People who think they are being watched tend to behave themselves more.

Speculation: Societies populated by people who believe in supernatural surveillance are most successful than ones that lack such people. (This has not been tested, as far as I can tell.)

These theories find confirmation from a very different academic discipline—the literature department. The present writer, based at the Creativity Lab at Hong Kong Polytechnic University’s School of Design, has been looking at the manifestation of cosmic justice in fictional narratives—books, movies and games. It is clear that in almost all fictional worlds, God exists, whether the stories are written by people of a religious, atheist or indeterminate beliefs.
This is not formal research, but the author's opinion, again. Anecdotal evidence.

It’s not that a deity appears directly in tales. It is that the fundamental basis of stories appears to be the link between the moral decisions made by the protagonists and the same characters’ ultimate destiny. The payback is always appropriate to the choices made. An unnamed, unidentified mechanism ensures that this is so, and is a fundamental element of stories—perhaps the fundamental element of narratives.
Author backtracks on previous claim that God exists in all fictional worlds. Now he says it's not really God, but some kind of karmic idea. Maybe. Further speculation follows:

Indeed, it appears that stories exist to establish that there exists a mechanism or a person—cosmic destiny, karma, God, fate, Mother Nature—to make sure the right thing happens to the right person. Without this overarching moral mechanism, narratives become records of unrelated arbitrary events, and lose much of their entertainment value. In contrast, the stories which become universally popular appear to be carefully composed records of cosmic justice at work.
And the author goes on to talk about screenwriting and other narratives.

But if a belief in cosmic justice is natural and deeply rooted, the question arises: where does atheism fit in? Albert Einstein, who had a life-long fascination with metaphysics, believed atheism came from a mistaken belief that harmful superstition and a general belief in religious or mystical experience were the same thing, missing the fact that evolution would discard unhelpful beliefs and foster the growth of helpful ones. He declared himself “not a ‘Freethinker’ in the usual sense of the word because I find that this is in the main an attitude nourished exclusively by an opposition against naive superstition” (“Einstein on Peace”, page 510).
Author attempts argument from authority.

Similarly, Charles Darwin, in a meeting with a campaigner for atheism in September 1881, distanced himself from the views of his guest, finding them too “aggressive”. In the latter years of his life, he offered his premises for the use of the local church minister and changed his family schedule to enable his children to attend services.
Author implies that Darwin must have been religious because he let the local church use his house and sent his kids to church.

Author is drifting off topic at this point.

Of course these findings do not prove that it is impossible to stop believing in God.
See what the author is doing here?

The assumption is that everybody has already started to believe in God, and that you have to stop believing to become an atheist. Author is correct that the research results do not prove this.

What they do indicate, quite powerfully, is that we may be fooling ourselves if we think that we are making the key decisions about what we believe, and if we think we know how deeply our views pervade our consciousnesses. It further suggests that the difference between the atheist and the non-atheist viewpoint is much smaller than probably either side perceives. Both groups have consciousnesses which create for themselves realities which include very similar tangible and intangible elements. It may simply be that their awareness levels and interpretations of certain surface details differ.
This is rather a poor summary of the quoted research results, and it "suggests" lots of stuff that the author would like to be true but which the research doesn't really address.

On a more personal level, we all have loved ones who will die, and we all have a tendency to puzzle about what consciousness is, whether it is separate from the brain, and whether it can survive. We will always have existential dread with us—at a personal or societal level. So the need for periods of contemplative calm in churches or temples or other places devoted to the ineffable and inexplicable will remain. They appear to be part of who we are as humans.
I like how the author tries to import his desire for churches or temples into what is otherwise a reasonable statement. Don't you?

Furthermore, every time we read a book or watch a movie, we are reinforcing our default belief in the eventual triumph of karma. While there is certainly growth in the number of bleak narratives being produced, it is difficult to imagine them becoming the majority form of cultural entertainment. Most of us will skip Cormac McCarthy’s crushingly depressing “The Road” in favor of the newest Pixar movie.
What to take from this? I'd say people tend to have a sense of justice, and they like narratives where justice appears to be done.

When looking at trends, there’s also population growth to consider.
Result 13: birth rates in Western nations are falling, whereas in Africa and South Asia this may not be true. Since the people of Africa and South Asia tend to be more religious than Western nations, this means that over time religious populations might tend to increase and secular ones decrease, all other things being equal.

Caveat: There's no guarantee that all other things will remain equal.

This may appear as bad news for pro-atheism campaigners. But for the evolutionary life-force which may actually make the decisions, this may augur well for the continued existence of humanity.
Author thinks that high birth rates are a good thing, it seems.

We might all be a little more spiritual than we think.
Well, maybe. Maybe not. Depends what you mean by "spiritual".

And we're done.

Hope this helps unpack it for you, Jan.
 
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Thanks for that James. I will look at it, and try to respond.

Of course I have to keep in mind that the author is an avowed atheist, meaning that, like you, he sees it from an atheist perspective.

Jan.
 
the author is an avowed atheist

One could make the presumption that he is also a journalist who writes to please a wide readership.

And some of the readers will cite his article as science when all he is doing is reporting ...his reporting of science is not science.

Journalists often distort the research they report upon and sensationalise so that
people will read their article and tell their friends.

I recall when research predicted certain limited situations would not result in the formation of a black hole was reported that black holes may not exist..a huge departure from the research.

The reporting was sensationalising to increase readership and that flavour of sensationalisation runs through the article you seized upon to support your beliefs and ironically the research probably does little to support the view you formed reading the article.

Many readers are taken in this way and if one wishes to know about science it is best to read the research after you read an article to determine what the research determined.

Alex
 
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