Scientific Proof Christianity is the True Religion

[Michael]

Yes triads are everywhere, for example the three states of matter.

Is it just me, or does that look like four states of matter to anyone else around here

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I love it when the religion sub-forum goes scientific. I don't know what it is other than really cold stuff but isn't there a fifth state of matter, the Bose Einstein Condensate?

 

[Doreen]

Is it just me, or does that look like four states of matter to anyone else around here

I assumed that was the joke.

 

[Doreen]

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying. I was only saying that CNS function is based on the physical properties of the brain: structure (neuronal tracts) and function (chemical pathways). That's it.

You were also saying it was hard for people to change the pathways. That is a belief. Do you think having that belief - that change is hard - can make it even harder to change?

And yet, most adult people do not alter the religious belief they were taught as children. Why?

But this is a very complicated issue? It could be because they are neuronally stubborn - my way of summing up your earlier post. It could also be because it works for them. It could also be because it doesn't really matter - as an analogy think of some trait we get via mutation that is neither good nor bad, like a shift in fur color from beige to tan or something.

Most adult people have great difficulties changing the language they were raised to think in. Why?

They don't need to. If they need to, they tend to.

Some religions, for example Scientology, have come up with interesting processes to change people's faith. How does this work?

Now you are really getting to interesting questions. But notice you have shifted from how people do not change to issues around how they can change.

Why does it seem to be that changing a person's name can somewhat alter their personal identity? What is happening neurologically?

Good question. Though, frankly, I am not sure reducing everything to neurons is the best approach. It would be very hard to say what is causal in a brain.

Go back to the experiment of people who wore blind folds daily for a few weeks. This did change the structured function relationship of their CNS. Now, think about the daily religious rituals people are told the Gods or the Aliens require of them. IS there some similar processes going on?

We get good at what we practice. This holds for everyone. If someone comes to sciforums every day and posts posts about the irrationality of religious people, this makes those grooves even deeper in their brains. If we spend time reassuring ourselves that certain phenomena are impossible, information or experiences that might contradict this create anxiety, so we learn to not notice or explain them away as fast as possible, preferably without noticing we are doing this. We are all subject to these habits.

Daily religious ritual is there to strengthen LTP synapse. That's it's function. All of the rules of society are there to do the same. This means its much harder to change the way a brain "thinks" about information in a way that utilizes pathways that are either down regulated or no longer exist. In effect, these rituals could be retarding the variety of perspectives people are able to take?

Or they could be strengthening the ability of the person to experience what they want to experience. Meditation might be a more neutral example.

Lets face it, if you scoop out an area of the brain, it's going to alter the structure function relationship. If you strengthen synapses on a daily bases it makes it harder to remodel those synapses. IMO we're not as "free willed" as we'd like to think

That's another belief that can make things seem inevitable when they are not.

Think about this. Suppose you wanted to "de-program" a Scientologist.
Is it possible to de-program a Scientologist who continues to attend daily religious services?

Sure. But you'd have to tie your deprogramming to what they experience. One issue I would immediately focus on is to ask them how they differentiate between a false smile and a real smile that comes from real joy. I'd be a devil of a deprogrammer.

Not likely for most people (some people yes - most no). Which is why there's often a legal battle between a family who kidnaps a member and "against their will" attempts to have them de-programmed.

But what about the cult of normal? are not normal, middle class families nuts? with a wide variety of delusions about what makes us happy, how we should interact with people, etc.?

One of the first things that seems to be required at an attempt to utilize this wonderful thing called neural plasticity is to stop the daily religious ritual.

Why just religious? Why not start with commercials? Kids are bombarded with these from an early age. They create a whole host of false associations and set kids up, for example the boys, to feel that buying a certain car or watch makes him cool and will get him access to that big titted woman. We should also cut out or extend the news. Because the news makes people think that they understand the context that is leading to war and, religious and atheist alike, jump up and down and drool - like Pavlov's dogs - to kick Sadaam's or Noreiga's butt when the bell rings.

But, no one is really thinking about neural plasticity - - are they? Who knows, in another 10 years maybe a person could be given a pill and quickly learn a new language, or more easily brainwashed by the State, or quit believing in superstition, or start believing in a new one. I won't be surprised if so.

Me neither.

It's all very interesting isn't it?

yes.

 

[Michael]

You were also saying it was hard for people to change the pathways. That is a belief. Do you think having that belief - that change is hard - can make it even harder to change?

I think it probably depends on the pathways being changed. Cerebral neocortex is pretty plastic, so is arch-cortex. Other areas of the brain such as the thalamus or corpora quadrigemina are probably not all that plastic.

That said, for whatever reasons, I tend to follow data. If there's a study that demonstrates plasticity, I'll lean in that direction.

But this is a very complicated issue? It could be because they are neuronally stubborn - my way of summing up your earlier post. It could also be because it works for them. It could also be because it doesn't really matter - as an analogy think of some trait we get via mutation that is neither good nor bad, like a shift in fur color from beige to tan or something.

True. Still, on a religious sub-forum it's an interesting topic. Take this for example:

"Xemu", I suggest you get over it; it's getting tired.

and then....

There is no god but God. God is a singular ONE.


Isn't THAT weird? I think it's very interesting. What if this were a Scientologist:

"God"?? I suggest you get over it; it's getting tired. There is no god but are Alien Overlords. Xemu is a singular ONE Alien Supreme Chancellor.


Now, imagine, an otherwise sane person thinking that Xemu is the one supreme elected Warlord. That's borderline psychosis to me. I'm sure if you have a friend that fervently believed and worshiped Xemu/nu it's probably strike you as a bit off kilter. Maybe you'd wonder: Why?

They don't need to. If they need to, they tend to.

Some adults can come to think in other languages even after learning them as adults, however, most feel more at home in their "mother tongue" - which is why we have that phrase. My only points being, brain plasticity changes with brain age.

Now you are really getting to interesting questions. But notice you have shifted from how people do not change to issues around how they can change.

What I was thinking was this. It may be that using these techniques (we'll call them brainwashing techniques) that entirely new pathways are created. Not that the old ones are remodeled (plasticity) but perhaps somewhat bypassed all together. Now, that I find interesting.

As for your run of the mill LTP synapses. Praying to Xemu 5 times a day in the direction of Hollywood from the age of 3 is a ritual for a reason. Upregulation of AMPA receptors on the post synaptic membrane being one of those reasons.

We get good at what we practice. This holds for everyone. If someone comes to sciforums every day and posts posts about the irrationality of religious people, this makes those grooves even deeper in their brains. If we spend time reassuring ourselves that certain phenomena are impossible, information or experiences that might contradict this create anxiety, so we learn to not notice or explain them away as fast as possible, preferably without noticing we are doing this. We are all subject to these habits.

Which is why the Scientific Method is such a good means by which to describe reality. I'd say, within a 95% confidence interval , that if someone actually posted some good evidence for Gods (or Xemu), well, most of us non-believers would change our minds. Maybe not all, but, I'd say most would. A flying saucer with Xemu stepping out and frying the Senate would change my mind on Scientology!

Or they could be strengthening the ability of the person to experience what they want to experience. Meditation might be a more neutral example.

I'm sure it does. Measuring study these phenomena are interesting. We may find for example that certain religious rituals may lead to and even perpetuate violent behaviors while others peaceful behaviors.

The hippocampus decreases in size as adults age. A smaller hippocampus is associated with decreased sense of well being. Meditation is correlated with retention of hippocampal volume and a sense of well being. Perhaps other beleifs are associated with decreased hippocampal volume and a decreased sense of well being.

Something worth studying. Suppose we find that certain rituals, even certain memes, act to decrease hippocampal volume and increase stress and violent behavior. Maybe we can work to eliminate these rituals and memes from our societies? Or maybe we can support them in the advancement of war? Interesting things to think about

That's another belief that can make things seem inevitable when they are not.

You're referring to the strengthened synapses. If there is going to be a physical reduction in receptor up regulation, this is going to have to take time. Even if it's just time to down regulate those pathways, alter the cytoskeleton and degrade the protein. Less receptors, less time, easier. More receptors, more time, harder. haha.... that's where I was coming from...

Sure. But you'd have to tie your deprogramming to what they experience. One issue I would immediately focus on is to ask them how they differentiate between a false smile and a real smile that comes from real joy. I'd be a devil of a deprogrammer.

Good idea.

But what about the cult of normal? are not normal, middle class families nuts? with a wide variety of delusions about what makes us happy, how we should interact with people, etc.?

Why just religious? Why not start with commercials? Kids are bombarded with these from an early age. They create a whole host of false associations and set kids up, for example the boys, to feel that buying a certain car or watch makes him cool and will get him access to that big titted woman. We should also cut out or extend the news. Because the news makes people think that they understand the context that is leading to war and, religious and atheist alike, jump up and down and drool - like Pavlov's dogs - to kick Sadaam's or Noreiga's butt when the bell rings.

That's exactly right. Ultimately I'd hope we could use the information that we gain from neuroscience not to use against people but to educate them on why we may not want to bombard children with false associations as it may cause mental damage.


A small study I read the other day suggests that parental coddling leads to a permanent decreased frontal lobe volume. And people wonder why babied-children never seem to leave the nest... :shrug:

 

[Michael]

As an aside, regarding neural plasticity. If you've ever had Novocaine at the dentist, and you feel your mouth is larger than it normally is, that's the neurons now processing information from the adjectent receptor fields (that would be otherwise processing them from your mouth). This changes (reversibly) your somatosensory homunculus map.

So, some brain changes happen rapidly.

 

[BrandeX]

I love it when the religion sub-forum goes scientific...

I am noticing this thread lacking in responses from "pro-religious" supporters/believers. Too many big words for them perhaps?