Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

[lightgigantic]

"Science without religion is lame"

This could be true, if taken from the context that religion is full of fantasy and myth, providing us with magical creations of galaxies and planets, adventurous tales of seas spreading open, pillars of fire and every other imaginable plague to mankind.

Science, on the other hand, is merely the boring, tiresome understanding of how things work.

In that respect, science could be considered lame without religion.

"Religion without science is blind"

Of course, remove any understanding of how things work and all your left with is the blind leading the blind with blind faith.

Are you saying that science relies on a sense of illusion to remain valid?

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Religion is outdated as I think we should know by now how to live in society.

Your evidence Kenny? The figures show otherwise! There is an enormous thirst for spiritual belief.

Numbers of non-believers are dropping compared with world population increases (see religious-tolerance.org). Islam is expanding greatly, and New age religion seems also to be expanding fast too (according to library.thinkquest.org).
Overall therefore, you might conclude that religion (especially Islam and New Age religion) is very much a growth industry!! Your secular modernism looks old-hat in this post modern age!

The problem with religion is that it's very alienating and is something society could do without having a significant role.

I disagree - atheistic 'objectification' gives rise to alienation because it's notion of 'reality' is based on some non-human 'objective' perspective. That is one of my objections to it! Quote from Wikipedia:

In a broader philosophical context, especially in existentialism and phenomenology, alienation is the inadequation of human being or mind to the world. The human mind, as the subject of perception, relates to the world as an object of its perception, and so is distanced from the world rather than living within it. This line of thought can be found, among others, in Søren Kierkegaard, Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Heidegger, and Theodor Adorno.

Religions almost universally emphasise "brotherhood", "love thy neighbour" and even "love your enemy" which are values opposed to alienation. These values contrast starkly with those based on secular materialism - where people become reduced to mere commodities.

I am seeing a bit of a contradiction between those two paragraphs. Religion has no urge for power, money, aggression, manipulation and corruption? I think you are ignoring history and current events.

I think Baumgarten has already answered this one...

Religion can't want any of those things. Ideas don't have desires. People, on the other hand...

I would just add that if you look at the values espoused by most religions, they are towards goals other than acquisition of money, power etc. Rich men and camels etc. etc.

I propose that we selectively culture benign memes such as secularism and close off our ties to virulent religious ones

Secularism ignores people's deepest needs. That is why all attempts (e.g. in the USSR) at supressing religion have never succeeded, and never will. I suggest rather that we culture our existing 'flora' of memes for moderation and religious tolerance.

 

[Paraclete]

Are you saying that science relies on a sense of illusion to remain valid?

You almost got it right lightgigantic : the correct statement is this :

Religion relies on a sence of illusion to remain valid ........

also : religion is blind - with or without science !!!

also : science with religion is lame - because the religion inhibits science !!!

Correct science without religion is not only GREAT , it is also the only TRUE thing in the universe ....

 

[spidergoat]

Atheism does not satisfy the basic human desire for something better. Life is ultimately unjust and in a world of limited resources - power, money, aggression, manipulation and corruption all enable the rich to remain rich and keep the poor in their place. Might makes right in the struggle for existence.

Gee, and I thought it was only that they don't believe in God. I don't think atheism implies these things at all. Atheism just means that we need to produce justice ourselves, which is what we do. As far as money, corruption, ect., religion doesn't solve these things, human institutions do.

Destroy that hope and only earth based utopias, attained through political revolution can hold out any hope for the disaffected, dienfranchised and angry.

Earth-based utopia...sounds good to me! In fact I think that is what Gesus meant by The Kingdom of God.

 

[KennyJC]

Your evidence Kenny? The figures show otherwise! There is an enormous thirst for spiritual belief.

I am skeptical towards polls which detail particular religions. People think of it more of a thing they were born into and have a bias towards voting 'catholic' etc even if it's not really a belief. Many passive non-believers would no doubt say they were Catholic because that's what they were taught in school. I am sure I am probably on many records also as a 'catholic'. The polls I prefer are a simple 'Do you believe in God?', and if I'm not mistaken people in Western society are increasingly saying no, although I don't have time right now to check up on my claim. Certainly one of those websites stated that atheism was at 3.5% in Europe... Which I question, since I barely know anybody who is religious or is an active believer.

And anyway, you misunderstood me for I was not saying that religious is outdated because more people are becoming atheist, I am saying that religion is outdated as a means of dictating the way people should live, because in modern society, you don't need religion for this purpose.

I disagree - atheistic 'objectification' gives rise to alienation because it's notion of 'reality' is based on some non-human 'objective' perspective. That is one of my objections to it!

I don't have much time, so I am just going to say 'bollocks'.

Religions almost universally emphasise "brotherhood", "love thy neighbour" and even "love your enemy" which are values opposed to alienation. These values contrast starkly with those based on secular materialism - where people become reduced to mere commodities.

Considering half the Bible and ALL of the Koran (more or less) preaches against infidels and believers in other Gods, that can not be considered religions intentions. Even if it was religions intention, the followers of religion certainly seem unable to see it, for the more fundamental the person follows the faith, seems to correlate with their levels fascism and tendancies for war.

I would just add that if you look at the values espoused by most religions, they are towards goals other than acquisition of money, power etc. Rich men and camels etc. etc.

America is a devout religious country, yet one of the most 'materialistic'. So saying atheism tallys with materialism is a bit of a contradiction.

Secularism ignores people's deepest needs. That is why all attempts (e.g. in the USSR) at supressing religion have never succeeded, and never will. I suggest rather that we culture our existing 'flora' of memes for moderation and religious tolerance.

Secularism doesn't ignore people's needs, it allows them to be free to do what they wish.

Ignore typo's... I'm off to endulge in glorious materialist pleasures.

 

[(Q)]

Are you saying that science relies on a sense of illusion to remain valid?

No, that is entirely your misunderstanding of science.

 

[lightgigantic]

No, that is entirely your misunderstanding of science.

You seem to be saying that science relies on a sense of wonder etc to progress, but at the same time you decry this wonder as illusory, hence my statement.

 

[lightgigantic]

You almost got it right lightgigantic : the correct statement is this :

Religion relies on a sence of illusion to remain valid ........

also : religion is blind - with or without science !!!

also : science with religion is lame - because the religion inhibits science !!!

Correct science without religion is not only GREAT , it is also the only TRUE thing in the universe ....

Your conclusion runs contrary to einsteins

while thi s may reflect your own personal understandings of both religion and science, it certainly says nothing about the thread topic, except perhaps that both you and einstein have differing views.

 

[Sarkus]

Your conclusion runs contrary to einsteins

while thi s may reflect your own personal understandings of both religion and science, it certainly says nothing about the thread topic, except perhaps that both you and einstein have differing views.

What is there to say about the thread topic other than it was one man's view, which others may or may not share?

There is no fact behind what Einstein quoted - just personal opinion.
It should be respected, as should anyone elses, but it is just an opinion.

 

[lightgigantic]

What is there to say about the thread topic other than it was one man's view, which others may or may not share?

There is no fact behind what Einstein quoted - just personal opinion.
It should be respected, as should anyone elses, but it is just an opinion.

Until people get off the platform of making bold statements to the world there is not a lot to respond to unless they want to reveal their premises.

As for einstein's quote - obviously he was very dedicated to material science but at the same time he gave a unique status to something beyond matter - this thread is about unpacking that statement of his