Science of Homeopathy-how you count?

[S.A.M.]

My own experience (and only one) has been with relation to my iron deficiency following heavy menstrual losses and accompanying severe dysmenorrhoea

I tried diet, iron supplements (all types), eating organ meats rich in liver, doing yoga, exercising and lots and lots of analgesics and anti-dysmenorrhoeals. And suffered. From the ages of 12 to 22, I suffered severe dysmenorrhoeal cramps, severe iron deficiency (haemoglobin levels between 9 and 9.5).

Finally during my stint with the army, an army doctor who dabbled in homeopathy recommended me a month long course on 3 types of homeopathic supplements (no sugar coated pills, just supplements). After that, my iron levels have consistently remained at 12.5 to 13.5, I have regulated blood flow (from 7-9 days to 3-4 days) and mild cramps. It took just one month of homeopathy to relieve me of all the symptoms.

Maybe its all psychosomatic. But it worked for me.

 

[Read-Only]

My own experience (and only one) has been with relation to my iron deficiency following heavy menstrual losses and accompanying severe dysmenorrhoea

I tried diet, iron supplements (all types), eating organ meats rich in liver, doing yoga, exercising and lots and lots of analgesics and anti-dysmenorrhoeals. And suffered. From the ages of 12 to 22, I suffered severe dysmenorrhoeal cramps, severe iron deficiency (haemoglobin levels between 9 and 9.5).

Finally during my stint with the army, an army doctor who dabbled in homeopathy recommended me a month long course on 3 types of homeopathic supplements (no sugar coated pills, just supplements). After that, my iron levels have consistently remained at 12.5 to 13.5, I have regulated blood flow (from 7-9 days to 3-4 days) and mild cramps. It took just one month of homeopathy to relieve me of all the symptoms.

Maybe its all psychosomatic. But it worked for me.

I don't doubt you. But for every single one like you, there are dozens, if not hundreds, for whom it did nothing. And that seems to clearly put it in the psychosomatic realm. Actual good medicine has the opposite results - only a few failures compared to positive results. And I think that says it all.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't doubt you. But for every single one like you, there are dozens, if not hundreds, for whom it did nothing. And that seems to clearly put it in the psychosomatic realm. Actual good medicine has the opposite results - only a few failures compared to positive results. And I think that says it all.

Actually I am aversive to medicines, I prefer taking injections to pill popping. I hated taking those pills, they were chalky and stuck to my palate.

But the doctor did tell me something interesting; he said homeopathy depends on the diagnosis. So the efficacy of treatment would depend on how good a diagnostician you get. I've never needed it otherwise, I'm healthy as a horse, so I haven't had the opportunity to try it again.

 

[madanthonywayne]

The success of homeopathy--if any--is due to the placebo effect. If those "medications" actually contained a significant concentration of the substance they are alleged to contain, many of them would be dangerous for many patients.

I pretty much agree with you. It reminds me of many patients who've had a corneal transplant and take one drop a day of a steroid.

It's really a subclinical dosage, in fact, we'd often refer to it as a homeopathic dosage. But we'd always be afraid to take the patient off the once a day schedule for fear they'd suddenly reject the cornea.

About the only time we do take the patient off that maintanance dose is when they forget to take it on their own. Then we say, "Well, you're doing fine without it. Let's continue that way."

 

[Kumar]

Homeopathic effects, being delicate, natural, belief or at least not dysbelief effected, self dependant (not chemical dependant) etc. can show variations and inconsistent outcomes. Still, one can be benefitted by least side effects.

Anyway, I want to concentrate here more on possible microbilogical and biotechnological impacts in homeopathic remedies during preparation. So pls contribute.

 

[Kumar]

Your entire line of questioning appear to be centered on the accidental inclusion of some unknown biological agent(s). Quackery aside for the moment, hoping for some medical cure from THAT sort of thing should be enough to scare off any halfway rational person!!!!! Cure by accident??? By some unknown biological contaminant??? Please!!!!!

Whatever may be the impact by biological contaminant and their biological derivatives, whether these are possible in final outcome during preparation/potentization process or not?

 

[Read-Only]

Whatever may be the impact by biological contaminant and their biological derivatives, whether these are possible in final outcome during preparation/potentization process or not?

Sorry, I don't understand that question. Please try rewording it.

 

[Kumar]

Sorry, I don't understand that question. Please try rewording it.

Can some microbial contamination be present in various preparations of homeopathic remedies?

 

[Read-Only]

Can some microbial contamination be present in various preparations of homeopathic remedies?

Sure. But the likelyhood of their providing any benefit is highly doubtful and very, very unlikely. If they happen to be pathogens, it could result in an infection - NOT a good thing!!

 

[velcro]

What controls are there in the factories that make the pills? How are the pills made and by who? What quantities of (say) onion (cold remedy), are bought in, where from and in what form? How is it diluted to the required infinitesimal value? What quality control is in place?

What if I said 'Hey these pills are not what they claim to be" How could anyone find out? What forensic lab could check it where not even one molecule of the desired substance is present?

They could just sell blank chalk pills and what the hell.

What if someone secretly shuffled the pills in the hom.prac. cupboard? Would results change?

However, many people claim to feel a lot better after hom. treatment. Thats got to be good.
The irony is that you have to believe in it for it to work. If it helps then ok.
BUT..
Theres a homeopathic hospital in my home town. Homeopathic anaesthetic anyone?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

How we got pencillin and how it effective?

Penicillin was discovered by quite proper science. The bacteria in a Petri dish died. The scientists searched the entire laboratory looking for possible causes. The extensive mold on a forgotten sandwich was the first thing they encountered that hadn't been in the room before, so they tested it. It was not a submicroscopic quantity, and it was tested exhaustively under laboratory conditions on bacteria cultures in Petri dishes before it was tried on humans. This is not the way homeopathic "remedies" come about. No one can actually provide a coherent, scientific explanation of how they work!

"It's a little bit like the principle of vaccination." No it's not. Vaccinations work by killing live organisms, they're not much good against minerals.

 

[Kumar]

Sure. But the likelyhood of their providing any benefit is highly doubtful and very, very unlikely. If they happen to be pathogens, it could result in an infection - NOT a good thing!!

Thanks. Due to the behaviour of microbes..fast multiplcations, surrvival in extreme conditions, quick adaption and resistance to new environment, presence everywhere etc. can make them or their impacts prominient in final remedies. Microbes may die but their changed or modified derivatives can exist in final remedies. I think, microbiology and biotechnoly can be relevant.

Whether anyone know, whether presence of above impacts had previously been checked?

 

[Kumar]

Penicillin was discovered by quite proper science. The bacteria in a Petri dish died. The scientists searched the entire laboratory looking for possible causes. The extensive mold on a forgotten sandwich was the first thing they encountered that hadn't been in the room before, so they tested it. It was not a submicroscopic quantity, and it was tested exhaustively under laboratory conditions on bacteria cultures in Petri dishes before it was tried on humans. This is not the way homeopathic "remedies" come about. No one can actually provide a coherent, scientific explanation of how they work!

"It's a little bit like the principle of vaccination." No it's not. Vaccinations work by killing live organisms, they're not much good against minerals.

Yes, this can be indicipline or unsystematic but it has been tried on mass public with positive outcomes, therefore it is existing with much popularity and at increasing rate. Probably, it might had gone into reverse order, first effects are observed/felt then science is known. It may be happening in many systems. If my thoughts are correct, now it can move in straight direct line, systematically.

 

[Kumar]

What controls are there in the factories that make the pills? How are the pills made and by who? What quantities of (say) onion (cold remedy), are bought in, where from and in what form? How is it diluted to the required infinitesimal value? What quality control is in place?

What if I said 'Hey these pills are not what they claim to be" How could anyone find out? What forensic lab could check it where not even one molecule of the desired substance is present?

They could just sell blank chalk pills and what the hell.

What if someone secretly shuffled the pills in the hom.prac. cupboard? Would results change?

However, many people claim to feel a lot better after hom. treatment. Thats got to be good.
The irony is that you have to believe in it for it to work. If it helps then ok.
BUT..
Theres a homeopathic hospital in my home town. Homeopathic anaesthetic anyone?

Remedies are prepared in controlled atmosphere, may not strictly as modern medicines are prepared. Still, it can be unavoidable that no microbe can be present. Though molecules of active substance/s may not be present in higher potencies, but their related (same, similar or opposing) effects can be present via modification and discharges in microbes. We know about pus, miasma, penicillin or other biotechnical products.

One consideration in homeopathy is;

"Nosodes: This is a homeopathic remedy made from diseased tissue or bodily secretions rather than from a plant or animal. Taken like a homeopathic immunization to build up an immune response against a specific disease. Nosodes are often named for the disease present in the material they were made from, such as the flu nosode.
www.cedarvale.net/information/medicalterms.htm"

Why entering microbes, effected by mixture in initial stages, produce above secrations or modified/adapted to new environment?

 

[river-wind]

If you compare the time it takes for adaptation and reproduction to occur in even the fastest of microbial species with the time between the creation of the full strength homeopathic solution and it's final dilution, my initial reaction is that the microbes would not have been exposed to the initial non-diluted chemical long enough for any meaningful change to have taken place.

By diluting the original chemical over time, you are providing the reverse stimulus for optimal adaptation. If you wanted to make bacteria change, it is much more effective to introduce a lower concentration, and then increase it (as Scull noted in the Biological Changes? thread).

Besides, if the initial exposure to the original compound were enough to cause the microbes in question to be altered such that *they* are the active ingredient in a homeopathic remedy, wouldn't the following also be true:
1) If the the microbes are effected by the original undiluted compound, they would be similarly by every other environmental factor they come into contact with, in the end reducing the overall effect that the particular desired change has on their secretions.
2) that the exposure of an unhealthy area of the body to the external environment would cause microbes to come into contact with the sick area, changing them in a similar fashion. By leaving the area via the bloodstream, they would then be entering a more dilute solution effectively re-creating the creation of a homeopathic remedy. Shouldn't this suggest that open wounds would be beneficial to the patient?

 

[Kumar]

If you compare the time it takes for adaptation and reproduction to occur in even the fastest of microbial species with the time between the creation of the full strength homeopathic solution and it's final dilution, my initial reaction is that the microbes would not have been exposed to the initial non-diluted chemical long enough for any meaningful change to have taken place.

Oh! I have not yet considered modified microbes and their product's presence in full original substance prior 1st step. I oversighted it and just considered 1:99 solution at first step. Thanks. If modified/adapted miscobes or their products including their dead bodies are present in origional substance, that can be a food to new enterants and multiplying modifications.

By diluting the original chemical over time, you are providing the reverse stimulus for optimal adaptation. If you wanted to make bacteria change, it is much more effective to introduce a lower concentration, and then increase it (as Scull noted in the Biological Changes? thread).

That can serve as a new environment to new entrants causing new modifications.

Besides, if the initial exposure to the original compound were enough to cause the microbes in question to be altered such that *they* are the active ingredient in a homeopathic remedy, wouldn't the following also be true:
1) If the the microbes are effected by the original undiluted compound, they would be similarly by every other environmental factor they come into contact with, in the end reducing the overall effect that the particular desired change has on their secretions.

That can be a reson to "variation in effects giving property" in different dilutions/potencies. As homeopathic theory suggest reverse order of concentration increases potential effects, this will be valid. We need to consider homeopathic theory and hormesis instead of modern theory of concentration for this purpose.

2) that the exposure of an unhealthy area of the body to the external environment would cause microbes to come into contact with the sick area, changing them in a similar fashion. By leaving the area via the bloodstream, they would then be entering a more dilute solution effectively re-creating the creation of a homeopathic remedy. Shouldn't this suggest that open wounds would be beneficial to the patient?

You may need to understand nosodes, miasma, Isopathy(same cure same) consideration in this respect;

"Nosode: This is a homeopathic remedy made from diseased tissue or bodily secretions rather than from a plant or animal. Taken like a homeopathic immunization to build up an immune response against a specific disease. Nosodes are often named for the disease present in the material they were made from, such as the flu nosode.
www.cedarvale.net/information/medicalterms.htm "

Best regards and thanks. I respect your deep, dynamic and unbiased understandings and replies. Probably, we/you may get clarity on many unclear and badly needing understandings(may be antibiotic resistance issue) by this understanding. Derrivatives or products from relevant diseased and dead microbes may serve as a medium to repel or kill relevant microbes.

 

[Kumar]

"High sensitivity 1H-NMR spectroscopy of homeopathic remedies made in water
Contaminants
Signals that were consistently upgoing could be artifacts or they could be measuring something actually present in the sample. Among such signals, some were evidence of contamination by small organic molecules. Seven signals were positively identified, and an eighth was given a probable assignment....While we admit that our procedures and lab technique were apparently introducing some extraneous acetate and formate, the Helios remedies' levels of these ions typically ran higher than the levels seen in remedies prepared on site (medians of 55 and 44 versus a maximum of about 30 for on site remedies). We deduce that the source of these contaminants in Helios remedies was at least partially from the remedies themselves,
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=534805

If we look deeply, I think (though I am not much technical) that some organic and other contaminants are considered but just ignored in conclusion considering these as non- objective presence related to active substance. Such considerations may also be possible in other studies/testings. As such;

Why these can't be specifically effected contaminants expressing specific effects relevant to active substance justifying molecular presence of similars/relevant but not the same active substance?

Modified microbes ot their products can also come from undiluted active substance at first step and muliply thereafter.

 

[river-wind]

They are not considered because they are not there on purpose. If the practitioner is not expecting them to be present in the remedy, and can control their presence within a certain level of concentration, then they will be considered contaminants first.

Why rely on a remedy that will vary significantly between productions? Initially, Hahnemann would not allow anyone else produce the remedies, as the practitioner's energies and even more importantly, sweat, were not the same as his own - the person doing the diagnosis. How can we trust any homeopathy remedy produced today if the founder of the system wouldn't?

Thanks for the link to the pubmed article. Yummy, acetone.

 

[Kumar]

They are not considered because they are not there on purpose. If the practitioner is not expecting them to be present in the remedy, and can control their presence within a certain level of concentration, then they will be considered contaminants first.

Or they would had previously thought "microbiological basis" being indirect.

Pls also look at my previous post to last post.

Why rely on a remedy that will vary significantly between productions? Initially, Hahnemann would not allow anyone else produce the remedies, as the practitioner's energies and even more importantly, sweat, were not the same as his own - the person doing the diagnosis. How can we trust any homeopathy remedy produced today if the founder of the system wouldn't?

Thanks for the link to the pubmed article. Yummy, acetone.

Efficacy can vary due to lesser control (Hahn.'s time) to strict control (now), still in same line. More or less efficacy will still be efficacy not adverse effect.

Btw, whether few modified microbes can come with undiluted origional substance at first step? Modified, because they might had previously lived with origional substance for some more time.

How much time/exposure it may take microbes to get modified or dischage modified substances?

 

[river-wind]

Depends on the microbe in question. E. coli divides as fast as every half hour. so if you begin with 1 cell, you could have 4 within the hour, 16 after hour 2, 64 after hour 3...

If the strain that ends up in the solution has a fast mutation rate, and each generation holds onto the useful fraction of those mutations, then you could start noticing an external change fairly quickly (in terms of hours/days).

This is assuming, or course, that the first cell is able to survive and reproduce at all in the original mixture.