Science is not immune from requiring faith...

I've never seen it, but I shall have faith that my intepretation is right. C came from B which came from A. You just got to have faith my friends, that I interpreted the data right, since I've never seen this happen." That's pretty much how it seems to me. What say you ?
Your example is misleading because that is in fact not how science or scientists work.

Yes, there is faith in science, but it is a reasoned faith. As more evidence is discovered that supports a hypothesis, and as all evidence that might falsify it is tested and found to be false itself, the probability of the hypothesis being true continues to increase. At some point it becomes "true beyond a reasonable doubt" (to borrow the language of the law because frankly the language of science sucks for communicating with laymen) and is promoted from a hypothesis to a theory and eventually to a canonical theory.

At every step faith is employed, but it is faith in the scientific method itself, a faith that has been earned because the scientific method has proven satisfactory for 500 years. We have faith in all of its components, most noteworthy of which are empirical observation, logical reasoning, experimentation, testing and peer review. We have seen theories developed by the scientific method for several centuries, and we have observed empirically that only a very small number of them have been falsified. This low failure rate makes science a useful tool for understanding and predicting the behavior of the natural universe.

This is very much like the faith I have in my wife. When I married her my faith in her was based in love, and as we know from empirical observation that faith is not always rewarded. But after thirty years of her unwavering devotion and positive contributions to our life, my faith is based on logic and experience. (And no, it didn't take the whole thirty years to reach this point. :))

Religious faith is not like this at all. Religious faith is based entirely on hope that a supernatural universe exists which is unobservable and exempt from both natural laws and logical reasoning. Religionists hope that when they die they will prove to have "souls" which are then transported to an "afterlife" where they will be rewarded by a "god." There is no empirical evidence to support this hypothesis. It has never been tested by experimentation or any other means. It is not derived from logical reasoning like the faith of the scientist. It is derived from sheer unreasoning hope, like the faith of the little boy that his dog will come home even though he vanished a month ago. The little boy can't stand the sadness of believing that his dog met an untimely demise, and religionists can't stand the sadness of believing that death is exactly what the dictionary calls it. So they have faith that something that defies logic and empirical evidence will occur.
Faith does not require evidence.
Our faith does. We have faith in the laws of probability. The more evidence there is to support a hypothesis, the higher the probability that it will never be falsified. This is the difference between faith based on reason and faith based only on hope.
If I understand you correctly...I think that science education is one very important aspect of what you are looking for. Understanding the basics, the basic priciples AND the basic philosophy of science.
The basic philosophy of science is that the natural universe is a closed system, and that its behavior can be predicted by theories derived logically from empirical observation of its past and present behavior. This stands in stark contrast to the philosophy of religion, which is that denizens of an unobservable supernatural universe are capriciously meddling with the behavior of our universe so we can never be sure what's going to happen next.
I have read several creationist web sites, and I find that most of their arguments rely heavily on a lack of knowledge of logic, and a lack of even basic scientific knowledge. So, a trained scientist looking at these arguments finds them to be utter nonsense, but someone poorly educated in science will find the arguments compelling.
As a member of the L.A. chapter of CSICOP I attended a debate between a real scientist and a creation "scientist" back when that particular religious bullshit first became popular about 25 years ago. I found to my dismay that the people who were accepted as leaders of the movement were patently frauds. They carefully picked through the evidence and only presented the bits that seemed to support their hypothesis. They cited research from third-rate universities. And they had much better communication skills than the real scientists, so they were able to dazzle the audience with rhetoric and proper scientific terminology. Their goal was only to mislead people into supporting them, not to make any headway in the academic community.
Faith is a VERY abundant thing in science classes. Perhaps even required. Seriously, how many times have you seen someone believe in a principle without being able or bothering to understand it? How many times do you have to accept a principle before you have fully accepted it? Very often complexities are brushed over... things that people spent years to develop.
And this is the reasoned faith of which I speak. We decide logically to accept the theories developed by other scientists because we know that they have been tested and peer reviewed by qualified people. One of the greatest features of the scientific method is that in order to peer review a hypothesis you don't have to be as well qualified as the guy who thought it up. So there are a lot more top-notch peer reviewers than top-notch researchers and everything has been reviewed to death.

When I choose to have faith in the DNA theory of terrestrial life, it is because I know that it has been tested for decades by thousands of scientists, and every one of them would be thrilled to be the guy who disproved it.

When I'm exorted to have faith that I'll meet all my dead friends in an "afterlife," I am given nothing to support that belief except that millions of really nice people hope it's true. Well all right quite a few assholes believe it too but that's a topic for a different thread.
Any time someone has believed what they were taught when they were taught wrong has done so based on faith (once again ignoring laziness). And that has happened a lot.
We learn where to place our faith. When we're children we have no choice but to trust our parents, because living a life where we can't do that would be unbearable so it's worth taking the risk. We transfer that faith to our teachers and other people whom our parents have faith in. Faith in teachers is somewhat more rational, since hanging onto their jobs requires at least a modicum of peer review. But as we grow up we become capable of doing our own testing and peer review of the people who ask us to accept them as authorities. By the time we're adults we're not as likely to believe something we're taught without having in some way validated the authority of the teacher.

At least that's the way it's supposed to work. :)

I think the preceding paragraph sums it up. Religionists are like children. Living a life without gods and all that wacky stuff would be--for them--unbearable, so they trust an unreasoned hypothesis and take the risk that it will turn out to be invalid. In a sense it's a good bet, since if it's false they won't be alive to find out.
 
Hahaha, I read the first two posts of this topic and bursted out laughing.

Didnt even read the rest.

Too Funny!:bravo:
 
This is very much like the faith I have in my wife. When I married her my faith in her was based in love, and as we know from empirical observation that faith is not always rewarded. But after thirty years of her unwavering devotion and positive contributions to our life, my faith is based on logic and experience. (And no, it didn't take the whole thirty years to reach this point. :))
Regardless of your love for your wife, if you had reasons to think the two of you were incompatible you wouldn't have married her. You had reasons, evidence, which you had obtained throughout your courtship and interactions with her which led you to think that marrying her would work out. Because you used evidence it's a misnomer to say you have "faith" in your wife.
 
Take the Peppered Moth, now people KNOW that it 'evolved' slightly to adapt to its surroundings during the Industrial Revolution.
That's only half a century, it's not faith that leads people to believe that a lot more can be achieved over millions of years.

When are you going to realise that the evidence for Natural Selection and Evolution is all around us?

When are you going to realise that the argument for God gets weaker everyday?

You live with your eyes shut, blocking out the facts that would answer your 'questions' about Darwinism. Preferring rather to make simply mindless threads such as this, which achieve nothing except your own discredit.

God gives the rabbit larger hind legs to enable him to run faster, and long ears to hear a coming predator. God gives the buzzard keen eyes to see its prey, and sharp claws and beak to rip it apart.
Why did God create these two animals merely to play their endless game of cat-and-mouse? Nature is indifferent to suffering, because we can plainly see that it makes no efforts to numb the pain of the rabbit as it's ripped apart. Nature only seeks to survive, because without that instinct, these animals wouldn't be here today.
But God, He's compassionate and caring, so who's side is he on?

Why does God see sex before marriage as a sinful act, but create the orgasm nevertheless? Or perhaps, did the orgasm develop because those organisms who found sex the most pleasurable would have more of it, and therefore pass their genes on to the next generation?

God is a defence against a fear of the unknown, based in no real evidence at all.

The sooner religion is phased out; the better. It belongs to a more primitive age, and shouldn't be used as an excuse to hinder scientific progress.

Mate, time for a reality check.
 
we have faith in those who are wiser than us, like the scientists and gods.

Why did God create these two animals merely to play their endless game of cat-and-mouse?

for the same reason he created men and women to chase each other endlessly.

Nature is indifferent to suffering, because we can plainly see that it makes no efforts to numb the pain of the rabbit as it's ripped apart.

nature numbs the pain by creating chemicals and drugs in the brain

The sooner religion is phased out; the better. It belongs to a more primitive age, and shouldn't be used as an excuse to hinder scientific progress.

when we were children our parents wrote rules to us, but now when we have grown up we don't need rules (religions) anymore.
 
Regardless of your love for your wife, if you had reasons to think the two of you were incompatible you wouldn't have married her. You had reasons, evidence, which you had obtained throughout your courtship and interactions with her which led you to think that marrying her would work out. Because you used evidence it's a misnomer to say you have "faith" in your wife.
What I'm saying is that the word "faith" is not used exclusively to mean the kind of groundless, irrational hope that characterizes religion. To use scientific language, that kind of faith is belief in the truth of an extraordinary assertion which not only lacks extraordinary evidence but lacks evidence entirely: a worst-case violation of the Rule of Laplace.

"Faith" is commonly used to mean trust in a person, institution, procedure or natural phenomenon based on their history of behavior. This kind of faith is evidence-based and rational.
 
for the same reason he created men and women to chase each other endlessly.

No, because men and women 'chase' eachother in order to have sex and reproduce. Not for one of them to eat the other.

nature numbs the pain by creating chemicals and drugs in the brain

Sorry, have you ever been ripped apart? Nature creates pain; so organisms know when something is wrong. That rabbit has no 'drugs' (perhaps you should look up the definition by the way) to ease its agony.


when we were children our parents wrote rules to us, but now when we have grown up we don't need rules (religions) anymore.

I tried to make sense of this. Tried, but failed. Perhaps you're just too profound for me.
 
when we were children our parents wrote rules to us, but now when we have grown up we don't need rules (religions) anymore.
I tried to make sense of this. Tried, but failed. Perhaps you're just too profound for me.
What he's saying is that civilization has become so complex that children cannot understand it intuitively, and therefore must be coerced into abiding by its rules. Even in a pre-civilized society without schools, traffic signals and cash registers, very young children must be made to follow that society's fundamental rules about respecting others, just as the adults of any social species must do with their young.

But as we mature, the nature of civilization becomes more apparent, and furthermore--if we were raised right--we willingly give it what it requires in return for what it gives back, because it's a fantastic deal. (At least in places where civilization has not become dysfunctional.) Adults have rules but to a large extent they are consensual. "Drive on the right side of the road to avoid chaos, and everybody will get where they're going faster and safer." "Don't touch a woman without asking or being invited, and men and women will get along better." "Send your children to school, and you won't have to support them forever."

Of course this system has been perverted by a too-big-for-its-britches government that enforces rules with no clear benefit to civilization. "Use alcohol and tobacco instead of marijuana and LSD, even though they're more dangerous." "Give us a trillion dollars to spend fighting terrorists we can't find, even though you're fifty times more likely to be killed by the drunk drivers we all know personally."

But religions are even worse than governments. "Don't let strangers see your face." "Stay with your spouse even if you hate each other." "Don't eat milk and meat in the same meal." "Don't hurt the cows."
 
What he's saying is that...

Thank you, that was very helpful (if that sounds sarcastic, it's unintentional). However, I still don't see how that links with religion being obsolete in today's world.
 
Thank you, that was very helpful (if that sounds sarcastic, it's unintentional). However, I still don't see how that links with religion being obsolete in today's world.
It's a metaphor. As children mature into adults, they don't need as many rules because they can figure out right and wrong for themselves. Similarly, as civilization matures, the species as a whole becomes wiser and doesn't need artificially imposed rules.

I said "as a whole," so don't get on my case with a thousand examples of individuals (and a couple of entire communities) who don't seem to have advanced from the Stone Age.
 
Saying that, for example, Hitler hasn't advanced from the Stone Age, is not really noticing how his decisions went far past Stone Age atrocities. Not simply because he could be more effective due to technology, but in his way of thinking.
 
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