Science-based spirtuality

[wellwisher]

But yeah, pseudoscience in the flimsy guise of legitimate science is often used as a propaganda tool by cranks and woos, both religious and non-religious. I mean, the biggest use of pseudoscience today actually comes from the fringe branches of Christianity, in the form of "Intelligent Design."

The point I was making is, religion is inherent inside each person, such that even if one is not outwardly religious in the formal sense, there will be urges to do a parallel behavior, such as believe in UFO's and aliens. The justification for aliens may be called pseudo-science but it is trying to rationalize what is felt inside, but in a way that is more atheist friendly.

The way I combine science and faith was to use science to investigate the human mind to see where these religion factors come from and how they work. In my observations, atheism is not formerly a religion, based on semantics. But if you look at behavior, there is always the crusade to rid the world of that evil religion, like another religion in competition. The inside is disguised to make it science friendly.

If you apply the theories of evolution and natural selection, humans have been practicing religion since civilization began. If you combine this time intensive behavior, with selective advantage in terms of following the herd and gaining placement in the pecking order, compared to departure (expulsion or death), human behavior based genes; natural for some, concentrated along the lines of religious behavior.

One way to test this theory would be to make use of small children. Small children are little natural human animals who have not yet been conditioned or programmed to the bias of culture. They can still act natural. Their affinity will be toward the natural. Small children all seem to like stories that involved talking animals, etc; mythology. This affinity is innate, but gets repressed as children enter indoctrination into atheism.

In America, only atheism can be taught in public schools. In spite of this high level of propaganda control, the country is not 100% atheist. What would happen is religion was allowed to teach in public schools for 50% of the class time?. Would atheist gain the same ratio of indoctrinates? The answer would be no, since even though religions may teach what is not science, it reaches something inside; brain firmware.

 

[Balerion]

The point I was making is, religion is inherent inside each person, such that even if one is not outwardly religious in the formal sense, there will be urges to do a parallel behavior, such as believe in UFO's and aliens.

But to call that impulse "religion" is a misnomer. It's like calling the impulse to eat food "cake hunger." There is a marked difference between worshiping Allah and believing in UFOs, even though they can share a trigger, such as ignorance. What's really inherent in us is inquisitiveness and pattern-seeking. That can result in religious faith, or belief in conspiracies, or UFOs, but it's not in and of itself religion.

The justification for aliens may be called pseudo-science but it is trying to rationalize what is felt inside, but in a way that is more atheist friendly.

I don't know what the hell that's supposed to mean.

The way I combine science and faith was to use science to investigate the human mind to see where these religion factors come from and how they work. In my observations, atheism is not formerly a religion, based on semantics. But if you look at behavior, there is always the crusade to rid the world of that evil religion, like another religion in competition. The inside is disguised to make it science friendly. [/quote]

Again, this doesn't even make any sense.

If you apply the theories of evolution and natural selection, humans have been practicing religion since civilization began. If you combine this time intensive behavior, with selective advantage in terms of following the herd and gaining placement in the pecking order, compared to departure (expulsion or death), human behavior based genes; natural for some, concentrated along the lines of religious behavior.

Word salad.

One way to test this theory would be to make use of small children. Small children are little natural human animals who have not yet been conditioned or programmed to the bias of culture. They can still act natural. Their affinity will be toward the natural. Small children all seem to like stories that involved talking animals, etc; mythology. This affinity is innate, but gets repressed as children enter indoctrination into atheism.

Children also like chocolate chip cookies for breakfast. They also like playing with broken glass and putting objects in their mouths. You're really trying to say that because kids enjoy monster stories that delusion is good for them? C'mon, even you can't really believe that.

In America, only atheism can be taught in public schools. In spite of this high level of propaganda control, the country is not 100% atheist. What would happen is religion was allowed to teach in public schools for 50% of the class time?. Would atheist gain the same ratio of indoctrinates? The answer would be no, since even though religions may teach what is not science, it reaches something inside; brain firmware.

Atheism is not taught in schools. Actually, because of pressure from cranks and zealots such as yourself, evolution has difficulty being taught. Many biology teachers are afraid of "insulting" young children whose parents have poisoned them with religious zealotry.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Magical Realist,

Religious" as in being an adherent to one of the some odd 730 religions existing on this planet? I suppose there are degrees of religiousity among these adherents, but these would still just be varying degrees of adhering to a given religious belief system.

What is important is the "belief system", and how it affects the individual.

What does the word "spiritual" mean to you personally? From reading your posts I don't see you as much of an authority in this area.

"Spiritual'', to me, means the essential part of the person, that part that does not change.

Hmm..and here I was thinking that was ketamine.

Then maybe it's not for you at this junction of your experience.

jan.

 

[Nobeliefs]

"What is important is the "belief system", and how it affects the individual."

If something is important, is to face nature the way it is... Belief gives you nothing more than an ilusion, belief spreads ignorance wich is our worst enemy... The only way we know to discover reality and face it, is by the Scientific Method. True scientific mided people have no beliefs, just hypothesis and theories...

If you give less importance to words and face nature the way it IS, then you wont find any sense to use the word "spiritual"... Try to use words that precisely represent reality, words that are not subject to interpretation...

Here, a quote from a genius:

"You see, one thing is, I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing.
I think its much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.
I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things.
But Im not absolutely sure of anything, and there are many things I dont know anything about,
such as whether it means anything to ask why were here, and what the question might mean.
I might think about it a little bit; if I cant figure it out, then I go onto something else.
But I dont have to know an answer. I dont feel frightened by not knowing things,
by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is,
as far as I can tell — possibly. It doesnt frighten me."

Richard Feynman

 

[JWA]

Energy?

Kwhilborn wrote: Could energy itself be a god conscious

Do we all agree that immediately after the so called "Big Bang" that all that existed and the first effect was pure energy? Is it also not accepted scientifically that everything evolved from this energy (or should I write Energy?)? Further have the "materalists" not seen solid objects vanish into quantum effects. My understanding is that the concept of the material has evolved into the concept of mass and we can equate all mass with energy (E=Mc2). To me all this begs the question: What actually is energy? Science has given it a name and has indicated that it "does work", but what actually is this thing that makes up all other things?

 

[river]

Is there a way to be scientific and spiritual at the same time? By "spiritual" I don't necessarily mean "religious". By "spiritual" I mean having an aesthetic and ethical vision of life based on values like reason and human creativity. This does not even entail belief in a God per se. Einstein for instance had an awe and wonder for the universe that did not require personification as some ghostly overlord. Others may find in quantum physics support for a buddhist or transcendentalist idealism. CAN science accomodate the spiritual needs of the human mind? Or is it doomed to offer us only a nihilistic and reductionistic fatalism?

Funny that this thread should come up after I just finished a book called THE FORBIDDEN UNIVERSE by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince

The occult origins of science which were based on the HERMETICA

All the pioneers of science , from Copernicus to Newton , via Galileo , were inspired by Hermeticism

Leibniz , Bacon , Kepler , Tycho Brahe and even Shakespeare

This is little known , so at one time science did have already a spirtuality , and not based on any Abrahamic religions

But on Egyption esoteric teachings

I highly recommend this book

http://www.picknettprince.com/books/forbiddenuniverse/forbiddenuniverse.htm

Gives a short overview

 

[spidergoat]

Do we all agree that immediately after the so called "Big Bang" that all that existed and the first effect was pure energy? Is it also not accepted scientifically that everything evolved from this energy (or should I write Energy?)? Further have the "materalists" not seen solid objects vanish into quantum effects. My understanding is that the concept of the material has evolved into the concept of mass and we can equate all mass with energy (E=Mc2). To me all this begs the question: What actually is energy? Science has given it a name and has indicated that it "does work", but what actually is this thing that makes up all other things?

Space/time.

Note that materialists are not "matterists". Energy is just as material.

 

[Thoreau]

I think the term "spirituality" is highly subjective. Anything can be spiritual in nature, at least IMO.

My own personal spirituality encompasses many things - reading, meditating, visiting cathedrals and other "holy" places, being in nature, listening to relaxing music, etc. I do personally believe in God. However, the majority of my personal spirituality has very little to do with God, as I believe that God has very little to do with me.

In essence, I believe "spirituality" to simply be the things that awe me the most and make me feel the most at one with the universe and my own existence.

 

[river]

I think the term "spirituality" is highly subjective. Anything can be spiritual in nature, at least IMO.

My own personal spirituality encompasses many things - reading, meditating, visiting cathedrals and other "holy" places, being in nature, listening to relaxing music, etc. I do personally believe in God. However, the majority of my personal spirituality has very little to do with God, as I believe that God has very little to do with me.

In essence, I believe "spirituality" to simply be the things that awe me the most and make me feel the most at one with the universe and my own existence.

Thats all well and good

But the problem is that science , mainstream science , won't consider or allow any sort of spirituality to enter into the understanding of life and the universe

That is the problem with science

 

[river]

Look the difference with the Hermetic spirituality is that it didn't ask you to worship a god , there were no priests between the individual and god

Each individual has within them the ability to UNDERSTAND god because everyone of us is from god or Thoth

And it encouraged knowledge and the potential within each of us to reach and understand god , so that we as Humans can become potentially gods themselves

 

[river]

I need to correct something here

Looking back into the book it was ATUM NOT thoth who was the god who created the material world who was invisible and RA is the visible manifestation

Thoth was part of the Lesser Ennead , the nine gods of this world

 

[river]

Science has forgotten its spiritual side , based on the Hermetica

It was suppressed by the catholic church by the threat of persecution by death from the time of Giordano Bruno ( who was burned at the stake ) to Newton

Perhaps if more were aware of the Hermetica science would be less defensive about the spiritual being a part of scientific theory

Because right know if the scientific community admits to a spiritual element to the world the this invites the creationist in , understandable , I disagree with there perspective as well

Hermetics is far more advanced than any abrahamic philosophy by far

 

[jayleew]

Spirituality and the belief that there are no ghosts is compatible. There are at least a few religions even that focus on the mind, body, and spirit. Spirituality has layers of inspirational, passion, and emotional connections. Anyone, even the atheist, can be spiritual about other things than the belief in a god.

Fanatic athletes treat their own bodies as temples and their routines take on a religious tone. They are inspired by their growing power and recognize the control they have over the body by allowing the mind to push it beyond what they thought is possible, but they believed in it and they excel.

Meditation is a spiritual act. Your spirit is your being, all that you are both physical and mental, like your "soul".

 

[JWA]

The issue of this Thread is addressed in a book titled “The Self-Aware Universe” subtitled “How Consciousness Creates the Material World” by Amit Goswami, Ph.D. He notes that “during the past four hundred years, we have gradually adopted the belief that science can be built only on the notion that everything is made of matter – of so-called atoms in the void. We have come to accept materialism dogmatically, despite its failure to account for the most familiar experiences in our daily lives.” He speaks of a new paradigm that will “integrate mind and spirit into science”. He says that “the centerpiece of this new paradigm is the recognition that modern science validates an ancient idea – the idea that consciousness, not matter, is the ground of all being.” He describes the first part of his book as introducing “the new physics and a modern version of the philosophy of monistic idealism” with the latter part of his book as an attempt to construct “a bridge over the chasm between science and religion”. Goswami is a professor of physics at the Institute of Theoretical Sciences at the University of Oregon. He states that “many physicists today suspect that something is wrong with material realism but are afraid to rock the boat that has served them so well for so long.” It seems to come down to the question: Is consciousness made of atoms or are atoms made of consciousness? Goswami makes a strong (scientifically based) case for the latter in my opinion.

 

[kx000]

Spirituality means what?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Nobeliefs,

"What is important is the "belief system", and how it affects the individual."

If something is important, is to face nature the way it is...

We've no choice but to face nature the way it is.

Belief gives you nothing more than an ilusion, belief spreads ignorance wich is our worst enemy... The only way we know to discover reality and face it, is by the Scientific Method. True scientific mided people have no beliefs, just hypothesis and theories...

You make alot of claims, can you give some example of how ''belief gives you nothing more than illusion''?

So science is all a human being needs to live his/her life. Nothing else? Is that what you're pedalling?

If you give less importance to words and face nature the way it IS, then you wont find any sense to use the word "spiritual"... Try to use words that precisely represent reality, words that are not subject to interpretation...

That kind of lifestyle is not for me, but if it works for you, great.

Here, a quote from a genius:

"You see, one thing is, I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing.
I think its much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.
I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things.
But Im not absolutely sure of anything, and there are many things I dont know anything about,
such as whether it means anything to ask why were here, and what the question might mean.
I might think about it a little bit; if I cant figure it out, then I go onto something else.
But I dont have to know an answer. I dont feel frightened by not knowing things,
by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is,
as far as I can tell — possibly. It doesnt frighten me."

Richard Feynman

Oh! The guy who said: I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Guess you overlooked the fact that this guy has beliefs, heh?

He sees himself as a random coming together of particles that somehow magically evolved into a human being. Remember, he doesn't know, he thinks or believes this to be the case. I don't see it like that, and my experience has lead me to a different understanding about my existence.

What I don't get is, how one person's belief relevant to spirituality?

jan.

 

[Cris]

Jan Ardena,

We've no choice but to face nature the way it is.

Which doesn't include "supernatural", something we have no certainty is even possible.

So science is all a human being needs to live his/her life. Nothing else? Is that what you're pedalling?

That kind of lifestyle is not for me, but if it works for you, great.

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"). So to not base your life on knowledge is to say you base it on fantasy. A somewhat unstable starting point.

 

[Cris]

The term "spirituality" does not appear to have a clear authoritative meaning. One of the conclusions in wiki has it as "Spirituality has come to mean the internal experience of the individual", and that could mean a whole host of things.

Last year, in their home at Thanksgiving, I was discussing religion with a Jewish woman who had married a Catholic man. I was curious as to how they dealt with their different beliefs. It seems they each believe what they wish and it doesn't appear to affect their excellent relationship. But she admitted she doesn't believe in a god but does believe in spirituality and she quoted her personal feelings experienced at the operas and art galleries she attends. I guess for her such sensations can be compared to what Einstein stated at his awe at the wonder of the universe, he also stated he was atheist.

While I love studying science, although I am no scientist, and I do find astonishment at times at how the universe operates with its often apparent "weirdness", I do not find myself moved to state it is a spiritual sensation - it just is. Similarly, I enjoy the arts, but not enough to move me significantly to a deep emotional state.

So while the term does not depend on religious beliefs I will accept that some folks are deeply moved by some humanistic or inanimate phenomena, and at the same time I cannot say there is anything that moves me in such a manner. Perhaps I have simply not discovered anything yet and perhaps never will, so for now I could not claim to be spiritual in any context. I'll keep looking, but perhaps my analytical approach to everything prevents me from achieving a spiritual state, that is not to say I am not emotional, I can weep quite easily at some silly heart-pulling movies for example, and I feel deeply for members of my family. So spirituality is not necessarily connected with an emotional cycle - it seems to be different to that.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan Ardena,

Which doesn't include "supernatural", something we have no certainty is even possible.

When you say ''we'', do you mean every single living organism that is, and has ever been?

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"). So to not base your life on knowledge is to say you base it on fantasy. A somewhat unstable starting point.

The old switcheroo!

jan.

 

[Baldeee]

Can anyone tell me what "spirit" is?
That would be a good start.
If we can use our own definitions/understandings then to me "spirit" is just the underlying personality of a person.
Being "spiritual" is just a feeling one gets when they tap into their rawer, coarser self.
Or when something affects that level of their being.
Music can have that effect on me.
Even pondering the wonderful nature of the universe.
Especially after a drink or two.
Nothing fancy about that kind of "spirituality" and wholly subjective.