SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I applaud your wit and snootyness immensely. First rate really.
No, however, is not an explanation which conforms to the scientific method.
So, please... Does the fact that electrons absorb and emit photons mean that an electron may contain a photon? If not please rationally explain why and my only response will be, OK- Thanks.
Avoiding, ignoring or ridiculing a valid, on topic question is usually a substitute for "I don't know". Or in this case "Sorry, I'm wrong".
 
Last edited:
Mike Honcho said:
Does the fact that electrons absorb and emit photons mean that an electron may contain a photon? If not please rationally explain why and my only response will be, OK- Thanks.
Click to expand...
No. How many photons do you think it can contain? Because it can emit as many photons are you like.
Mike Honcho said:
Avoiding, ignoring or ridiculing a valid, on topic question is usually a substitute for "I don't know". Or in this case "Sorry, I'm wrong"..
Click to expand...
I bet if I asked you to demonstrate you have working knowledge of quantum electrodynamics you'd not answer. Because you don't know. But you always try to give the impression you're knowledgable and hacve ideas superior to mainstream models. :rolleyes:
 
AlphaNumeric said:
I bet if I asked you to demonstrate you have working knowledge of quantum electrodynamics you'd not answer. Because you don't know. But you always try to give the impression you're knowledgable and hacve ideas superior to mainstream models. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


No working knowledge here.. I promise. Just a mediocre conceptual knowledge and exceptional intuition. Yes I said intuition in a quantum physics thread.

And I'll not get in a fly shit picking contest with you (I've seen your enthusiasm).

But regarding the question (and this is important because it is an attempt to disprove one of the contestants entries):

1) Q: You asked how many photons do I think an electron may contain?
(my) A: One for each shell depending on the Atom... I guess.

2) You post that an electron can emit as many photons as I like.

Is that true or something you just said? Please explain or refer me to an explaination.
If so, then the answer to my question is, "no, electrons cannot contain photons, they somehow extract/reduce them from/to the surrounding environment" - and Entry # 8 By Janus stands.
If an electron can absorb, tempoarily contain and emit a photon (I think some smart guy called this a "Quantum Leap" ;)), then Ben must remove Entry # 8.
 
AlphaNumeric said:
No. How many photons do you think it can contain? Because it can emit as many photons are you like.
Click to expand...
I suspect that electrons do not emit photons. Any time an electron changes direction and doing so crosses lines of force a photon is created. Just as if you wiggle electrons in a wire you generate photons of radio energy
 
So, Vern "suspects" photons are created (we should say inducted) when force lines are crossed. If so Entry #8 should stand because a photon need not be contained within the electrons wavefunction.
Is this bit of knowledge actually known yet?

I do not see how Verns suspicion explains the absorption of a photon by an electron. Are the photons destroyed or uninducted back into whatever we're calling the ambient energy fields nowadays?

Still I have a question.
Can an electron absorb, tempoarily contain and emit a photon? Ben?
 
Last edited:
Mike Honcho said:
I do not see how Verns suspicion explains the absorption of a photon by an electron.
Click to expand...
When a photon reacts with an electron, the electron changes direction. That change in direction can take all the photon's energy, or just a portion of it, leaving a less energetic photon and a more energetic electron, or visa versa. That is my suspicion.
 
Vern said:
When a photon reacts with an electron, the electron changes direction. That change in direction can take all the photon's energy, or just a portion of it, leaving a less energetic photon and a more energetic electron, or visa versa. That is my suspicion.
Click to expand...

Thats pretty good Vern but the energy differences between electrons in different shells are known. The differences come in uniform amounts sometimes called quanta.. look it up ;).
Electrons don't exist inbetween shells due to "partially absorbed photons".

I know you are sharp... don't make me loose faith.
 
MikeH said:
Does the fact that electrons absorb and emit photons mean that an electron may contain a photon?
Click to expand...
If you use the "pebble" model, ask yourself if a pebble or a rock contains perturbations in the surface of water...(?)

They do, in the sense they make them in a surface - water - if they have sufficient momentum.
Which is essentially what electrons and other charged particles do.
The biggie is that charged particles don't look like pebbles at all.

P.S. looks like we're meant to stay away from holes in space that take these photon particles to the horizon of the cosmos, in like "no time at all", I guess.
There should be a solution that shows a particle with charge will take a finite time to reach the cosmic horizon, I surmise.
I don't have the math, but I do have the nous to look for one in some paper or other. Which would support the above and the "proof" that in our cosmos, massless bosons must exist, and must not be allowed to become massive, ipso factoid.
 
Last edited:
Mike Honcho said:
Electrons don't exist in between shells due to "partially absorbed photons".
Click to expand...
True Mike; electrons are only allowed certain positions within atoms, so it is all or none. They seem to be able to go from one energy level to the other instantaneously. I suspect though, that a photon slamming into an atom with excessive energy might trigger the energy level change by losing only a portion of its energy.
 
Vern said:
They seem to be able to go from one energy level to the other instantaneously.
Click to expand...
They don't though.
You mean electrons change from one stationary state to another; except electrons are never stationary, their resonant state (orbital period) around a proton's charge changes. The proton an electron interacts with is in a similar holding pattern. A kind of interference pattern, with degrees of freedom in it.
 
Last edited:
Vkothii said:
You mean electrons change from one stationary state to another;
Click to expand...
I didn't say anything about stationary; they change from one energy state to another. I don't know if it is "orbital" and I don't think anyone else knows that. Electrons do some kind of dance within an atom; everybody's got their own guess about just exactly what that is. I don't think it is "orbital".
 
Vkothii, Vern,
We digress.
My humble intention here is to eliminate one of the Contestants Entries (#8). Not because I hate people, but because I think it is probably wrong.
Janus argues, as I understand, that a photon is more or less too big with respect to an electron for an electron to be composed of photons.
Wavelengths and what not.
I am trying to argue that electrons absorb, store and release photons thereby disproving the photons are too big arguement i.e. Entry #8.
how can a massless bit of energy wavelength possess size anyway? Wouldn't it just meld with and increase the total frequency within the electrons wavefunction? IDK. I do know that wavelength can change inversely with frequency.

Anyway,
Vkothii, Vern, anyone..
Do electrons absorb, store and release photons thereby disproving the photons are too big arguement i.e. Entry #8?

Ben has said they don't
BenTheMan said:
See here.
Click to expand...

I think he may be incorrect.
 
That's ok too, you can think anything you "want" (given you have a brain with a thermodynamically useful range, presumably - you should be good as long as you don't go sticking it in any strong magnetic fields, for too long).
 
Vkothii, do you know if the answer to my question is yes or no?
If no, how does an electron absorb and emit photons without somehow containing them?

Please respond with off point, nonsensical sentences containing misused seven syllable words if you don't know the answer. I'll get the point.
 
Mike Honcho said:
..electrons absorb, store and release photons thereby disproving the photons are too big arguement i.e. Entry #8.
how can a massless bit of energy wavelength possess size anyway? Wouldn't it just meld with and increase the total frequency within the electrons wavefunction?
Click to expand...
Well, I was sort of waiting to see if you could answer your [own] question; [your] model as I visualise it isn't all that far from the guts.
Potential states are like the idea of "stored" energy.
 
Last edited:
Vkothii said:
Well, I was sort of waiting to see if you could answer your question; the model as I visualise it isn't all that far from the guts.
Potential states are like the idea of "stored" energy.
Click to expand...

No seven syllable words but I get the point.
btw, I think the answer to my question is (obviously) yes electrons absorb, contain and then emit photons. This quantum effect is Physics 101. Basis of modern chemistry, etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top