SBC meets in NC; numbers of saved have dwindled.

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: I read that the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting this week, is worried about how to attract new members. Apparently, for the past 50 years, there has been a downslide in baptisms. Back in 1950, there was 1 baptism for every 19 members. In 2003, the ratio was 1:43 baptisms to church members. To fix the numbers, outgoing president, Bobby Welch, set a goal of baptising 1 million people in this past year. They fell short of their goal, and they are worried about it.

What does this mean? Will the Baptists get more aggressive in the pursuit of baptising their members? Or, will they continue to lose membership?

I think they will push baptism on newcomers. Apparently, it doesn't seem to matter if a person is ready for a religious commitment. All that matters is the dunking.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a solution to the SBC's concern. People have smartened up in the past 50 years. The truth is, there really is no significant difference in the dunked and non-dunked. Perhaps the are relying on insignificant statistics. With a lesser membership quota, of course they will have proportionately fewer baptismal statistics.

I spoke to a friend of mine who is a staunch Christian about this. He told me that, first of all, he wasn't a Christian, he was a Southern Baptist. That surprised me, especially since he believes in the virgin birth, ministry, miracles, death of Jesus by crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He wanted no part in the definition of what is to be a Christian. We discuss Christianity often, even when it becomes somewhat heated. He had no comment on the SBC article. In fact, he believes the numbers are not faltering! (He doesn't rely on the SBC statistics!).

Anyhoo, I wanted to bring this to the forum to see where others stand, especially the Christians. Do Southern Baptists not see themselves as Christians? This is news to me. But for all Christians, how do you feel about the numbers dwindling? How are you going to deal with solving the problem of losing Christianity?

 

[The Devil Inside]

well, i was a southern baptist for the majority of my teenage years. i can say that at that particular time, i saw myself as being a christian before a baptist. that isnt to say that they dont think this way now, though. around the time that i left the church, there was a kind of large awakening in the christian community. there were conferences all over america (for a hefty ticket price, you could attend ) called "promise keepers". during this time, i saw what a giant cash machine the evangelical faiths were becoming. around this time, you saw the emergence of benny hinn for example.

also, as a former christian of the baptist flavor, i can say that indeed, they will launch an aggressive campaign of conversion as the first line of attack, and secondarily by involving those newcomers that buy into the dogma in the actual church functions to "guilt" them into staying. i have seen that tactic used many times. the church i went to had around 50 members when i joined, and when i left the fold, there were at least 250 attending the BRAND NEW church they had built.

 

[ggazoo]

But for all Christians, how do you feel about the numbers dwindling??

It's fine with me. It was prophisized biblicaly as a sign of the end times (which could be tomorrow, or 1,000 years from now, who knows).

they will launch an aggressive campaign of conversion as the first line of attack, and secondarily by involving those newcomers that buy into the dogma in the actual church functions to "guilt" them into staying.

This is something I don't agree with - these paticular Christians are using cult like tactics... scary stuff.

 

[The Devil Inside]

thats the scary thing, ggazoo. they are very good at what they do: influence those who feel they need something to hold onto. THEY have the answers, and if you dont believe them, YOU are going to hell.
its sick, really.

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: I read that the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting this week, is worried about how to attract new members. Apparently, for the past 50 years, there has been a downslide in baptisms. Back in 1950, there was 1 baptism for every 19 members. In 2003, the ratio was 1:43 baptisms to church members. To fix the numbers, outgoing president, Bobby Welch, set a goal of baptising 1 million people in this past year. They fell short of their goal, and they are worried about it.

What does this mean? Will the Baptists get more aggressive in the pursuit of baptising their members? Or, will they continue to lose membership?

I think they will push baptism on newcomers. Apparently, it doesn't seem to matter if a person is ready for a religious commitment. All that matters is the dunking.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a solution to the SBC's concern. People have smartened up in the past 50 years. The truth is, there really is no significant difference in the dunked and non-dunked. Perhaps the are relying on insignificant statistics. With a lesser membership quota, of course they will have proportionately fewer baptismal statistics.

I spoke to a friend of mine who is a staunch Christian about this. He told me that, first of all, he wasn't a Christian, he was a Southern Baptist. That surprised me, especially since he believes in the virgin birth, ministry, miracles, death of Jesus by crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He wanted no part in the definition of what is to be a Christian. We discuss Christianity often, even when it becomes somewhat heated. He had no comment on the SBC article. In fact, he believes the numbers are not faltering! (He doesn't rely on the SBC statistics!).

Anyhoo, I wanted to bring this to the forum to see where others stand, especially the Christians. Do Southern Baptists not see themselves as Christians? This is news to me. But for all Christians, how do you feel about the numbers dwindling? How are you going to deal with solving the problem of losing Christianity?

How do you conclude a reduction in baptisms among members equates to a reduction in absolute membership numbers?

Most of the southern baptist churches I know about are growing and expanding. I'd have to say the same about most churches that preach the gospel -- they grow.

The social churches and liberal ones die. For example I know a guy that went to an episcopal church that split over the hymbook. The split was driven by a female minister on staff. She didn't want any hymnals that had God as male gender. She took the majority with her and the other half of the congregation fizzled out. My friend went to her church until he found out she was a lesbian. It wasn't too long before her half of the church died too.

I remember a presbyterian church we went to when I was a child --First Presbyterian was the name. It was social to the max -- a beautiful church made of solid feldspar.. When I went there I used to chuckle at the little tar shack baptist church next door called Parkwood Baptist Church. It was smaller than a double wide mobile home. That was about 40 years ago -- look at them today. Here's Parkwood:

Today, the glamorous presbyterian church next door is the same size it was 40 years ago. It's like nothing changed much and now it's the dwarf on the block. It still has the money and the prestige.

The ichabod churches die because they offer no hope for anyone.

All the churches I've ever attended are either about the same size or larger than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Charismatic leadership and music makes a huge difference, compared to smug dry blasee preachers in night gowns with choirs to match.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

How do you conclude a reduction in baptisms among members equates to a reduction in absolute membership numbers?

Most of the southern baptist churches I know about are growing and expanding. I'd have to say the same about most churches that preach the gospel -- they grow.

The social churches and liberal ones die. For example I know a guy that went to an episcopal church that split over the hymbook. The split was driven by a female minister on staff. She didn't want any hymnals that had God as male gender. She took the majority with her and the other half of the congregation fizzled out. My friend went to her church until he found out she was a lesbian. It wasn't too long before her half of the church died too.

I remember a presbyterian church we went to when I was a child --First Presbyterian was the name. It was social to the max -- a beautiful church made of solid feldspar.. When I went there I used to chuckle at the little tar shack baptist church next door called Parkwood Baptist Church. It was smaller than a double wide mobile home. That was about 40 years ago -- look at them today. Here's Parkwood:

Today, the glamorous presbyterian church next door is the same size it was 40 years ago. It's like nothing changed much and now it's the dwarf on the block. It still has the money and the prestige.

The ichabod churches die because they offer no hope for anyone.

All the churches I've ever attended are either about the same size or larger than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Charismatic leadership and music makes a huge difference, compared to smug dry blasee preachers in night gowns with choirs to match.

*************
M*W: That was not my conclusion. Here's a reprint of the article in The Houston Chronicle, dated Tuesday, June 13, 2006:

"SOUTHERN BAPTISTS WORK TO HALT SLIDE IN WINNING SOULS: Churches not on track to meet this year's goal of 1 million baptisms, by Tim Whitmire (AP) Greensboro, NC -- There are 16.2 million SOuthern Baptists worshipping in the U.S., but as leaders of America's largest Protestant denomination gather this week, they are worried about how to attract new members."

"'What might God want you to try? What could you do differently that might make a difference in someone's life?' said Pastor Dick Lincoln, of Shandon Baptist Church in South Carolina."

"Lincoln was among those attending the church pastors' conference, a two-day event that led up to today's start of the Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting."

"In the past 50 years, the number of annual baptisms per church member -- a key indicator of church growth -- has dropped sharply, Southern Baptists baptized one person for ever 19 church members in 1950, a ratio that dropped to 1 baptism for every 43 church members in 2003, according to research published last year by Thom Rainer of the Southern Theological Baptist Seminary."

"Rainer, also president of the Southern Baptists LifeWay Christian Resources arm, said his research raised concern that, "'actually, we Southern Baptists are talkingmore about evangelism than doing it.'"

"To counter that trend, outgoing SBC president Bobby Welch set a goal of baptizing 1 million people in the year beginning last Oct. 1. As of June 5, 258 of the SBC's 43,465 churches had reported 3,494 baptisms -- a rate per church that would leave the SBC short of its goal."

"For a denomination that places winning converts at the heart of its mission, the slide is worrisome."

To recap:

1950 @ 1Bpt per 19Mmb = Rate-5%

2003 @ 1Bpt per 43Mmb = Rate-2%

So, I asked my Baptist friend what he thought about these statistics and how he foresaw the SBC dealing with it. (He has been a high-ranking member of the SBC in the past). He believes the SBC will become far more aggressive to reach missionary goals in Africa and Brasil to make-up for the severe decline in Europe and in the West. In those areas, he believes churches will need to relook at the face of church membership, although he is emphatically opposed to offer membership to homosexuals, some peoples of color, and would you believe it, some of the less fortunates of society like the needy and homeless (or was it widows and orphans?)!

When we get into discussions about religion, he always makes me proud to be an atheist!

 

[Woody]

OK

if you insist, here are the U.S. winners and losers by denomination according to Church Executive Magazine

U.S. Membership Denominational Ranking: Largest 25 Denominations/Communions
2006 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.

1. The Catholic Church, 67,820,833 members, reporting an increase of .83 percent.

2. The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,267,494 members, reporting a decrease of 1.05 percent.

3. The United Methodist Church, 8,186,254 members, reporting a decrease of .79 percent.

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,999,177 members, reporting an increase of 1.74 percent.

5. The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members, no increase or decrease reported.

6. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., 5,000,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 4,930,429, reporting a decrease of 1.09 percent.

8. National Baptist Convention of America, 3,500,000, no increase or decrease reported.

9. Presbyterian Church (USA), 3,189,573 members, reporting a decrease of 1.60 percent.

10. Assemblies of God, 2,779,095 members, reporting an increase of 1.81 percent.

11. African Methodist Episcopal Church, 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America, 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

13. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc., 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

14. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS), 2,463,747, reporting a decrease or 1.01 percent.

15. Episcopal Church, 2,463,747, reporting a decrease of 1.55 percent.

16. Churches of Christ, 1,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, 1,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc., 1,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

19. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, 1,432,795 members, no increase or decrease reported.

20. American Baptist Churches in the USA, 1,432,840, reporting a decrease of .57 percent.

21. United Church of Christ, 1,265,786, reporting a decrease of 2.38 percent.

22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International, 1,200,000, no increase or decrease reported.

23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, 1,071,615 members, no increase or decrease reported.

24. The Orthodox Church in America, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.

25. Jehovah's Witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.

The total members reported in the largest 25 communions is 148,009,649.

The 2006 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches costs $45 and may be ordered at www.electronicchurch.org

The National Council of Churches USA is composed of 35 Orthodox, Protestant, Episcopalian, historic African American and peace church traditions representing 45 million Christians in 100,000 congregations in the United States.

The alltime high was 151 million in the US and Canada in 2001. So it has dropped a bit in the past 5 years.

Look whose losing the fastest:

SBC -1.05%
Methodists -.79%
Episcopal -1.55%
Presbyterisan -1.60%
Lutheran -1.1%
Evangelical Lutheran - 1.09%
JW -1.07%
Church of Christ -2.38%
ABC - .57%

The big gainers are:

Catholic +.83%
Assembly of God +1.81%
Mormon + 1.74%

Though THe U.S. and Canada have lost 3 million since the 2001 high water mark, the numbers worldwide continue to increase.

Chirstianity, obviously, is not on the decline.

One of the problems I see causing the church decline has to do with the violation of non-traditional models in the church hierchy. Examples:

American Episcopals are going pro-homo, and the Gene Robinson is the 1st ever openly gay minister in the 300 year history of the anglican church:

Homosexual division in episcopal church

The Methodist church is being torn apart over same-sex marriages:

Methodist Destruction

Southern Baptists and ABC acceptance of Fellowship of the Brethren and their pro-gay agenda

Presyterians are going pro-gay at the clergy level:

Church defies order

Lutheran Leaders are going gay.

Acceptance of homosexual lifestyle is pretty well the coffin nail for many american churches as you can see from the reports. If you read the old testament, you'll find out the Jewish faith also died with acceptance of gay lifestyle.

Here is the reason homosexuality kills a church: When a church goes gay, then the bible becomes irrelevant. A so-called christain church without a bible dies.

 

[Cris]

Even while in absolute terms the Christian population has grown slightly since 2001 by about 2% the world total population has grown by 8%, from 6.1B to the current 6.6B. So as a percentage of world population Christianity is shrinking. The takeup is from Islam and a bigger increase by non-believers.

 

[Woody]

Even while in absolute terms the Christian population has grown slightly since 2001 by about 2% the world total population has grown by 8%, from 6.1B to the current 6.6B. So as a percentage of world population Christianity is shrinking. The takeup is from Islam and a bigger increase by non-believers.

Yep, the homosexuals are certainly doing their damage.

As a christian it increases my hope for the rapture, because the bible says (II Thes 2):

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
gathering Matt 3:12, Matt 13:30, Matt 24:31

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The church must fall away before Christ will come, bring it on! Whoopee! I get Him and y'all get the son of perdition. We're both going to like who we get.

 

[Cris]

I suspect though that the Christian myth-makers when writing their gibberish pretty much knew that people would eventually see through their nonsense and would give it up. But it's good that they wrote those verses, shows a nice last ditch attempt to save a dying fantasy.

As for homosexuals - they are not on the increase - they have always been there in the same proportions that we have now. The difference is that with a more enlightned worldview they are now beginning to make themselved known rather than fear the opression of religious intolerance typical of the past 2000+ years.

 

[Woody]

I suspect though that the Christian myth-makers when writing their gibberish pretty much knew that people would eventually see through their nonsense and would give it up. But it's good that they wrote those verses, shows a nice last ditch attempt to save a dying fantasy.

Actually a nice last ditch effort to reveal a living hell. Won't you be glad when every christian is gone? See, there's hope for you in that verse as well. You're gonna like the antichrist. He will be very popular you know -- your kind of man.

As for homosexuals - they are not on the increase - they have always been there in the same proportions that we have now. The difference is that with a more enlightned worldview they are now beginning to make themselved known rather than fear the opression of religious intolerance typical of the past 2000+ years.

It's just another alternate lifestyle with another pleasure of choice. Take your pick along with the other pleasureable lifestyles: drugs, drunkeness, whoremongering, debauchery.

Christians oppose adultery, fornication, drunkeness, and many other "lifestyles of sin" among church members. If a pastor gets caught cheating on his wife, see how long he lasts in the pulpit.

Homosexuality is just another lifestyle of fornication, which has never been accepted by the church:

Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other -- compare ADULTERY

Fornication is gender neutral. So much for your theory as it relates to church history. If the church caves into drug addiction as acceptable lifestyle the result will be the same. In your opinion is there anything wrong with using drugs for recreation?

 

[superluminal]

Homosexuality is just another lifestyle of fornication, which has never been accepted by the church:

Umm... *cough*bullshit*cough*

People DO NOT choose their sexual orientation. Get into the 21st century for gods sake. Did you choose yours? Did you weigh the pros/cons of humping a female vs male in your adolescent years? NO. No one does.

There is enough evidence now to actually laugh-out-of-court the idea of "choosing" your sexual orientation. It's just so entrenched in the religio-fanatical culture of the US that you can't just publicly call policy makers for what they are - ignorant, self-interested morons. Which, of course, also applies to self-righteous religious bigots.

 

[Woody]

Umm... *cough*bullshit*cough*

People DO NOT choose their sexual orientation. Get into the 21st century for gods sake. Did you choose yours? Did you weigh the pros/cons of humping a female vs male in your adolescent years? NO. No one does.

There is enough evidence now to actually laugh-out-of-court the idea of "choosing" your sexual orientation. It's just so entrenched in the religio-fanatical culture of the US that you can't just publicly call policy makers for what they are - ignorant, self-interested morons. Which, of course, also applies to self-righteous religious bigots.

Uhm, cough, er yeah

They can go celebate just like I did before I got married. If I can go celebate outside of a male female/marriage, why can't a homosexual? Is my christianity strong and theirs weak? Christianity blesses the celebate lifestyle, and even elevates it in the Catholic faith.

Let's get this totally straight -- As a christian I didn't have sex before marriage. It was ten years later that I got married. If I never got married, then I never would have had sex -- period. In marriage it just isn't a big deal, there are more important issues than sex. When you get old, sex is just about irrelevant in a marriage.

If Christ means anything to somebody they can do it too regardles of their sexual orientation. The bible commands them to. If they believe it then they'll do it. If they don't, well they can just go join one of those dieng churches that sees things their way. I'd suggest the Unitarian denomination. Anything goes -- literally anything. You don't have to change one iota.

A practicing homosexual christian is a fake. Yer just all washed up dude, and I'm laughing about it.

 

[superluminal]

Uhm, cough, er yeah

They can go celebate just like I did before I got married. If I can go celebate outside of a male female/marriage, why can't a homosexual? Is my christianity strong and theirs weak? Christianity blesses the celebate lifestyle, and even elevates it in the Catholic faith.

Let's get this totally straight -- as a christian I didn't have sex before marriage. It was ten years later that I got married. If Christ means anything to somebody they can do it too regardles of orientation. The bible commands them to. If they believe it then they'll do it. If they don't, well they can just go join one of those dieng churches that sees things their way.

A practicing homosexual christian is a fake. Yer just all washed up dude, and I'm laughing about it.

Say woodster, WTF does that have to do with homosexuality or sexual orientation in general? Are you saying it's fine to be homosexual, as long as you don't have sex until you're married? And don't tell me about the "church" not condoning homosexual marriage. Or are you agreeing that sexual orientation is not a choice and that homosexuals (who god apparently gave faulty genes) should just never have sex?

 

[Woody]

Say woodster, WTF does that have to do with homosexuality or sexual orientation in general? Are you saying it's fine to be homosexual, as long as you don't have sex until you're married? And don't tell me about the "church" not condoning homosexual marriage. Or are you agreeing that sexual orientation is not a choice and that homosexuals (who god apparently gave faulty genes) should just never have sex?

Yes, I am agreeing that sexual orientation is difficult and sometimes nearly impossible to change once it has been experienced and re-enforced.. There are often choices involved. For example some bisexuals end up totally homo. Typically many adolescents swing through several gyrations of orientation and finally end up heterosexual.

We are all sinners by birth, and a homosexual has their own tough issues to deal with -- tougher than most.

Jesus said:

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

In Matthew 19:12 Jesus gives the solution for someone that can't handle their sexual desire appropriately:

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Main Entry: eu·nuch
Pronunciation: 'yü-n&k, -nik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English eunuk, from Latin eunuchus, from Greek eunouchos, from eunE bed + echein to have, have charge of -- more at SCHEME
1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3 : one that lacks virility or power <political eunuchs>
- eu·nuch·ism /-n&-"ki-z&m, -ni-/ noun

There are drugs available that can suppress sexual desire too.

 

[superluminal]

...

In Matthew 19:12 Jesus gives the solution for someone that can't handle their sexual desire appropriately:


Main Entry: eu·nuch
Pronunciation: 'yü-n&k, -nik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English eunuk, from Latin eunuchus, from Greek eunouchos, from eunE bed + echein to have, have charge of -- more at SCHEME
1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3 : one that lacks virility or power <political eunuchs>
- eu·nuch·ism /-n&-"ki-z&m, -ni-/ noun

*sigh*

 

[Cris]

Woody,

Actually a nice last ditch effort to reveal a living hell.

No woody, hell is another fantasy invented by Christians to frighten people, it isn’t a real place.

Won't you be glad when every christian is gone?

It will be good when they have all been appropriately educated and can see the delusions that they had.

See, there's hope for you in that verse as well. You're gonna like the antichrist.

I am an anti-Christ.

It's just another alternate lifestyle with another pleasure of choice. Take your pick along with the other pleasureable lifestyles: drugs, drunkeness, whoremongering, debauchery.

Oh dear. That is a very sad, unfortunate, and uninformed outlook you have. It represents much of the evil that encompasses Christianity; intolerance, arrogance, and ignorance. You cannot know many Gay people or have taken the time to discover any truths about them. That you erroneously lump them in with much that is wrong with society reveals a serious weakness in your personality.

Christians oppose adultery, fornication, drunkeness, and many other "lifestyles of sin" among church members. If a pastor gets caught cheating on his wife, see how long he lasts in the pulpit.

Internal club squabbles don’t seem particularly interesting.

Homosexuality is just another lifestyle of fornication, which has never been accepted by the church:

How quaint and outdated of them then. But the Gay lifestyle is not all about sex anymore than a heterosexual lifestyle is all about sex. It is primarily concerned with love, affection, companionship, and sharing similar values with another person. That the church cannot understand this is entirely a loss for the church and its proponents.

 

[Cris]

woody,

They can go celebate just like I did before I got married.

Why? What is so special about being celibate? For most couples sex is an important part of a relationship. And surely before any type of long term commitment it would be good to know if you were sexually compatible.

If I can go celebate outside of a male female/marriage, why can't a homosexual?

Same question why should you or they go celibate? What is its value?

Christianity blesses the celebate lifestyle, and even elevates it in the Catholic faith.

For what purpose? Why is the church obsessed with sex?

Let's get this totally straight -- As a christian I didn't have sex before marriage. It was ten years later that I got married. If I never got married, then I never would have had sex -- period. In marriage it just isn't a big deal, there are more important issues than sex.

Sex is a normal, natural, pleasurable, and a healthy activity, why deny yourself those benefits at any time? Your attitude makes no sense.

When you get old, sex is just about irrelevant in a marriage.

My father died at 92 and remained sexually active right to the end. You show significant ignorance again.

 

[Woody]

woody,

Why? What is so special about being celibate? For most couples sex is an important part of a relationship. And surely before any type of long term commitment it would be good to know if you were sexually compatible.

Good excuse anyway.

Same question why should you or they go celibate? What is its value?

It proves you can control animal impulses. It proves that you are higher than an animal that gives in to instinctual desires. It proves you have a mind that is bigger than your body, and capable of controlling it. I respect someone like that. I have no respect or someone that can't control themselves. They are small, weak, shallow, undisciplined, lacking in character. Picture Bill Clinton.

For what purpose? Why is the church obsessed with sex?

The church isn't obsessed with sex, but western society is.

Sex is a normal, natural, pleasurable, and a healthy activity, why deny yourself those benefits at any time? Your attitude makes no sense.

So If it feelds good do it. That philosophy is called hedonism.

My father died at 92 and remained sexually active right to the end. You show significant ignorance again.

Sex just isn't that big of a deal. I assume you cared for your father. Your relationship with him didn't require sex, did it?

How quaint and outdated of them then.

Yep, Gay sex is nothing new either. It's been around a long time.

Oh dear. That is a very sad, unfortunate, and uninformed outlook you have. It represents much of the evil that encompasses Christianity; intolerance, arrogance, and ignorance. You cannot know many Gay people or have taken the time to discover any truths about them. That you erroneously lump them in with much that is wrong with society reveals a serious weakness in your personality.

I think you need to immerse yourself in the real world where I've lived. I wasn't always a christian -- not for 28 years. I've been around. The gay lifestyle is musch like the rest I mentioned -- with wild parties, drugs, etc. -- and I know some people that are in it. Some are dead from aids, some are still alive. My step-sister's nephew started out married and now he's gay. Why do so many of them have such a pissy attitude? Like my brother in law said : "If you had a penis stuck up your ass all day you'd probably be pissy too." It makes sense.

 

[Cris]

Woody,

Good excuse anyway.

No it’s not about excuses it’s entirely practical. A couple will share many things before marriage why should sex be an exception when it becomes a very important aspect of most relationships.

It proves you can control animal impulses.

Then why have sex after marriage? Does marriage signify you are free to give in to your animal impulses whenever you choose? Of course not, the restraints one exercises during marriage would be the same before marriage.

It proves that you are higher than an animal that gives in to instinctual desires.

But after marriage you are just like an animal then? What is so special about the marriage boundary that you must prove something before but not after?

It proves you have a mind that is bigger than your body, and capable of controlling it.

The same predicament then as the previous statements – this implies you relinquish control after marriage. Wouldn’t it make more sense for both partners to see if they can enjoy sex at appropriate times before marriage to see if they can perform appropriately at appropriate times and not lose control?

I respect someone like that. I have no respect or someone that can't control themselves.

And after marriage they can run rampant?

They are small, weak, shallow, undisciplined, lacking in character. Picture Bill Clinton.

No, you’ve simply been indoctrinated by an antiquated, outdated, and unenlightened misguided religious institution.

The church isn't obsessed with sex, but western society is.

Nonsense, Islam is far worse in this respect. Of all the things a couple could do with each other before marriage the Church appears to have arbitrarily chosen to ban sex. So what is their obsession about sex being wrong?

So If it feelds good do it. That philosophy is called hedonism.

And that is wrong because? And you would have sex because it doesn’t feel good? So what’s your point?

Sex just isn't that big of a deal.

Agreed, so why does the church think it is to the point of banning it before marriage?

Yep, Gay sex is nothing new either. It's been around a long time.

And common and natural throughout the animal kingdom. Why does the church have a problem with it?