Saving the violinist

Do you have a moral duty to remain connected? (see first post below)

  • Yes, you should remain connected for 9 months.

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • No. You have no obligation to remain connected, even though the violinist will die.

    Votes: 12 63.2%
  • Other (explain below)

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19
redarmy11 said:
Hi ToR: here are the links you asked for in which it's maintained that foetuses can't feel pain until late in the pregnancy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4905892.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4180592.stm
http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=8063

Here is the sceptical reaction to the above:
http://news.scotsman.com/health.cfm?id=1837422005

So: what's the truth? I suppose only the foetus can know for sure - and they can't talk.


I welcome any evidence that they do not feel pain as the pure horror of the trauma and torture that we inflict supercedes anything our most vilest criminals do.

meanwhile laws are being passed (have been) so that babies after 28 weeks gestation are anaethetised before being ripped apart, which is something I guess.
 
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James R:

"But pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. "Pro-abortion" sounds like these people want more abortions. Agreeing to be referred to as a "pro-abortionist" tips the scales in favour of the "pro-life" argument before the argument even gets started. "

The pro-choice position is, as you said, correctly labelled as "pro-choice", as it does allow for a choice, and thus, obviously is for choice! That being said, it is also "pro-abortion" because it is for the legalized status of abortion and is in support of every decision made to abort, by not affirming that the process is wrong. That is to say, you cannot be "pro-choice" and not want abortions. One obviously wants abortion, or one would not allow for it to be a legal end for people to pursue. So then, the label "pro-abortion" is utterly correct.

TheoryOfRelativity:

An excellent addition to the conversation in regards to the affirmation that the scenario is lacking the emotive and mental binding.
 
Theoryofrelativity:

in which case James you forgot some very important points, you should have mentioned that the violinist was closely related, ie. your own child you'd be killing, as killing a stranger (fame is irrelevant) is never so emmotive as killing your own.

If you're going to make a rational decision, doing so on the basis of emotion is not the way to go about it.

Remember, with laws concerning abortion we are talking about the government (i.e. other people) deciding the rights of the woman who is pregnant (or not, if you're pro-choice). The government, as an edifice, doesn't have emotions.

You know James you are a guy, you have and never will be pregnant thus you will never know what this feels like. Neither will any woman who has never been pregnant.

I have also never murdered anybody, but I don't think that disqualifies me from saying that murder is ethically unacceptable. Do you?

To describe it as being attached to a strange violinist ...adding the fame bit as if that somehow makes his life more valuable? Ridiculous and poor analogy indeed.

I have already commented on that. Did you read the whole thread?

I should also point out that I didn't come up with this analogy. This is something that has been put forward by a philosopher whose name escapes me right now, and I've put in forward in approximately the same way she did.

Meanwhile I will never failt to be bemused the enormous hypocrisy of animal rightists who are for the killing of human babies, ripping their arms and legs off stabbing them in the head and sucking their brains out in a long drawn out 2hr operation without any consideration for pain and sufferring (which is proven after 26weeks and debateable after as little as 6weeks) yet they can't abide the prospect of the instant blade to the throat slaughter of a pig.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Nobody is in favour of killing babies, as I pointed out before. We are talking not about arbitrary killing, but about the right of a woman to choose. And that is the point of the analogy too. Did you miss it?
 
Prince_James:

James R:

The pro-choice position is, as you said, correctly labelled as "pro-choice", as it does allow for a choice, and thus, obviously is for choice! That being said, it is also "pro-abortion" because it is for the legalized status of abortion and is in support of every decision made to abort, by not affirming that the process is wrong.

It supports the right of a woman to make her own decision, so in that sense you are right to say that if she decides to abort then the pro-choice position will support that decision. You are also right to say the pro-choice position does not take a black-and-white view in saying that all abortion is automatically wrong. To do that is to greatly oversimplify the relevant issues, which is a mistake many pro-lifers make. And let's face it - the most strident of them usually aren't too bright.

That is to say, you cannot be "pro-choice" and not want abortions.

That is wrong. I am pro-choice, but in an ideal world I would not want any abortions to be necessary. Alas, we don't live in an ideal world.
 
James R said:
If you're going to make a rational decision, doing so on the basis of emotion is not the way to go about it.

?

Iam not being emotional re this, I am stating facts, your interpetation can only be based on how you feel after reading them. Thus if I have evoked an emotional response from you...good.

When people dehumanize things James this is when the problems begin.

James R said:
Remember, with laws concerning abortion we are talking about the government (i.e. other people) deciding the rights of the woman who is pregnant (or not, if you're pro-choice). The government, as an edifice, doesn't have emotions.

?

The governemnt is made up of and ran by humans, thus it is not possible to create laws without their input or to enforce them without their input. Thus emotions are a factor. ALSO note: I have not said anywhere abortion should be illegal? Rather I have commented on the inhumane manner in which it is performed, the innappropriate social acceptance of it so much so it is now a form of contraception for some women, and the age at which it can be carried out again regarding the inhumanity of it. Also the loss of 'potentially' great contributers to human culture, all humans being unique and 'shaped' significantly by their genes. (don't start a nurture nature debate with me, not in this thread anyway!)

James R said:
I have also never murdered anybody, but I don't think that disqualifies me from saying that murder is ethically unacceptable. Do you?

not sure why you raise this point? I am not aware I said you shouldn't comment on abortion being unethical?

James R said:
I should also point out that I didn't come up with this analogy. This is something that has been put forward by a philosopher whose name escapes me right now, and I've put in forward in approximately the same way she did.

The philospher is poor indeed then and not worthy or quoting


James R said:
Nobody is in favour of killing babies, as I pointed out before. We are talking not about arbitrary killing, but about the right of a woman to choose. And that is the point of the analogy too. Did you miss it?

MANY people are in favour of killing babies James, those that abort their babies and those that perform the abortions and those that campaign to make it so freely avaialable and up to 9 months. europe is considering making babies (after birth) non-humans until they are 1 yrs old so they can kill them too.

You can not talk about about womans right to choose to abort without talking about her desire to kill her baby because they are one and the same thing.

The analogy does not describe a woman who (not including rape) is careless with regards to choices she makes regards herself. A drunk woman who sleeps with a man without protection is still making that decision to do so. Knowing full well there is a risk of pregnancy. We women do not forget this fact when drunk James.

The analogy describes a situation where the drunk makes no decision to IGNORE the consequence of being hooked for 9 months to a violinist.
He makes no decison to ignore as he has no idea it can happen to him. Further more pregnant women are not confined to bed for 9 months.

Had the analogy said you will be hooked to this individual but be free to carry on as normal and the person is virtually weightless and invisible, then the outcome of the decison it requests would be different. Why don't you re-write it thus and see what decison is made then?
 
Theoryofrelativity:

When people dehumanize things James this is when the problems begin.

I think this is a very human dilemma. Kill 10, or let 20 die? What could be more human than that?

Rather I have commented on the inhumane manner in which it is performed, the innappropriate social acceptance of it so much so it is now a form of contraception for some women, and the age at which it can be carried out again regarding the inhumanity of it.

I disagree with you on all points. I think backyard abortion with coathangers is much worse than abortions carried out by qualified medical practitioners. Realise that abortions happen whether or not they are legal.

I also disagree that women use it as a form of contraception, and would like to see any evidence that you have which supports your claim.

I should also point out that I didn't come up with this analogy. This is something that has been put forward by a philosopher whose name escapes me right now, and I've put in forward in approximately the same way she did.

The philospher is poor indeed then and not worthy or quoting

Well, it seems the philosophical community disagrees with you, because this scenario has been widely commented on in the relevant literature. A brief web search will find thousands of references and articles on this, if you spend enough effort to look it up.

MANY people are in favour of killing babies James, those that abort their babies and those that perform the abortions and those that campaign to make it so freely avaialable and up to 9 months.

Those who abort their pregnancies are not necessarily in favour of killing babies as a general proposition. You are attempting to make an emotive argument again, and distorting facts in order to do so. Why not be honest?

europe is considering making babies (after birth) non-humans until they are 1 yrs old so they can kill them too.

Another gross distortion, I assume...

You can not talk about about womans right to choose to abort without talking about her desire to kill her baby because they are one and the same thing.

A foetus is not a baby, just as a child is not an adult. Your attempt to label what may be a bundle of cells a "baby" is emotivism, once again.

The analogy does not describe a woman who (not including rape) is careless with regards to choices she makes regards herself.

Before you embarass yourself any further by bringing up points which I have already addressed, please go back and read the whole thread. I'm not going to repeat myself over and over just because you're too lazy to read the whole thing.

A drunk woman who sleeps with a man without protection is still making that decision to do so. Knowing full well there is a risk of pregnancy. We women do not forget this fact when drunk James.

With respect, I think your experience and knowledge of this is limited.

The analogy describes a situation where the drunk makes no decision to IGNORE the consequence of being hooked for 9 months to a violinist.

Do you really think every drunk girl makes a wilful choice to ignore the potential consequences of sex, at the time?

Further more pregnant women are not confined to bed for 9 months.

In that regard, the analogy is imperfect. However, pregnant women are not unrestricted in their actions during their pregnancies, either.

Had the analogy said you will be hooked to this individual but be free to carry on as normal and the person is virtually weightless and invisible, then the outcome of the decison it requests would be different. Why don't you re-write it thus and see what decison is made then?

I'm happy for people to discuss that version, too, of course.

Why don't we also add that you will need to financially support the violinist for at least 10 years after he is unhooked, as another example?
 
http://home.earthlink.net/~bkwormtoo/id35.html

apparantly I am not alone in considering this analogy is flawed:

"In this analogy (http://www.willamette.edu/cla/rhetoric/courses/argumentation/Judith Jarvis Thompson.pdf, the one who is rendered unconscious, abducted, and involuntarily connected to the violinist is supposed to be analogous to a woman who is unexpectedly pregnant. The dilemma posed in the analogy is supposed to communicate how outrageous it is to require a woman in such a circumstance to carry her baby to full term and give birth. The violinist "analogy" is a good example of how hypothetical scenarios can be crafted so as to build the conclusion into the premises - a fallacy called "begging the question". The details of the story are also contrived to force a false either-or choice by precluding other possible choices. Medically, the "analogy" was absurd some 35 years ago when the "analogy" was concocted, and it remains absurd today.


It also fails to be an analogy.
The vioinist, who is supposed to be analogous to the baby in utero is a stranger who is unrelated to the host, who is supposed to represent the unexpectedly pregnant woman. In the real world, a woman participates in the creation of her baby, if only through her egg being the source of half of the baby's genetic material. Usually her participation in the physical act that led to the creation of her baby is also voluntary. In the "analogy", during the abduction, the confinement in a medical facility, and being hooked up to the violinist the host is unconscious and all are done by force. In real life, the processes of implantation of the baby into the lining of the uterus and the development of the placenta are both cooperative processes between the baby and the woman's body. In other words, there is nothing analogous to the kidnaping or the medical facility, and there are no persons corresponding to the kidnappers or the doctor who effected the artificial hook-up between the two persons. There isn’t even a direct cross-connection of the pregnant woman’s and the baby’s blood streams. In the "analogy" the host will have no life outside of the medical facility for nine months, and the "dilemma" is supposed to be analogous to the choice faced by the pregnant woman. In real life, for the vast majority of pregnancies, the woman isn’t certain she is pregnant for up to a month or two, has almost no restrictions on her life for 5 or more months from conception, and is able to continue many of her usual activities, subject to some significant limitations and discomfort, for the rest of her pregnancy. Thus, entirely giving up nine months of life is very different from what a pregnant woman normally experiences. Almost nothing in the "analogy" is truly analogous to a pregnancy. The details of the story are contrived to make an unexpected pregnancy seem an unnatural, outrageous burden and imposition on the woman who is pregnant in order to manipulate the hearer/reader toward the pro-abortion conclusion. The true outrage in all this is the self-serving, tendentious misrepresentation of the sublime, entirely natural, process that culminates in the birth of a baby.

The violinist "analogy" is fallacious, medically absurd, and fails to be analogous. Nevertheless, this "analogy" is still advanced by abortion advocates, demonstrating their dedication to abortion, even when it is at the expense of intellectual honesty"
 
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If the violinist is so popular, don't you think there would be a lineup down the block of volunteers, ones who actually idolized the musician and would be eager to give up 9 months of their lives to save their idol?
 
What does being a violinist have to do with anything?
It's irrelevant.
It is an impossible scenario, and cannot be answered.
You have the ethical right to leave anytime you want.
You can give them a few days to fix the problem, but if they refuse, it is not your fault if the man dies. It is their fault for not fixing the problem.

The fact that you were drunk, and made a mistake is completely irrelevant. Even if you mistakenly signed your name to the volunteer list while under the influence. It doesn't count.
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bkwormtoo/id35.html

apparantly I am not alone in considering this analogy is flawed:

"In this analogy (http://www.willamette.edu/cla/rhetoric/courses/argumentation/Judith Jarvis Thompson.pdf, the one who is rendered unconscious, abducted, and involuntarily connected to the violinist is supposed to be analogous to a woman who is unexpectedly pregnant. The dilemma posed in the analogy is supposed to communicate how outrageous it is to require a woman in such a circumstance to carry her baby to full term and give birth. The violinist "analogy" is a good example of how hypothetical scenarios can be crafted so as to build the conclusion into the premises - a fallacy called "begging the question". The details of the story are also contrived to force a false either-or choice by precluding other possible choices. Medically, the "analogy" was absurd some 35 years ago when the "analogy" was concocted, and it remains absurd today.


It also fails to be an analogy.
The vioinist, who is supposed to be analogous to the baby in utero is a stranger who is unrelated to the host, who is supposed to represent the unexpectedly pregnant woman. In the real world, a woman participates in the creation of her baby, if only through her egg being the source of half of the baby's genetic material. Usually her participation in the physical act that led to the creation of her baby is also voluntary. In the "analogy", during the abduction, the confinement in a medical facility, and being hooked up to the violinist the host is unconscious and all are done by force. In real life, the processes of implantation of the baby into the lining of the uterus and the development of the placenta are both cooperative processes between the baby and the woman's body. In other words, there is nothing analogous to the kidnaping or the medical facility, and there are no persons corresponding to the kidnappers or the doctor who effected the artificial hook-up between the two persons. There isn’t even a direct cross-connection of the pregnant woman’s and the baby’s blood streams. In the "analogy" the host will have no life outside of the medical facility for nine months, and the "dilemma" is supposed to be analogous to the choice faced by the pregnant woman. In real life, for the vast majority of pregnancies, the woman isn’t certain she is pregnant for up to a month or two, has almost no restrictions on her life for 5 or more months from conception, and is able to continue many of her usual activities, subject to some significant limitations and discomfort, for the rest of her pregnancy. Thus, entirely giving up nine months of life is very different from what a pregnant woman normally experiences. Almost nothing in the "analogy" is truly analogous to a pregnancy. The details of the story are contrived to make an unexpected pregnancy seem an unnatural, outrageous burden and imposition on the woman who is pregnant in order to manipulate the hearer/reader toward the pro-abortion conclusion. The true outrage in all this is the self-serving, tendentious misrepresentation of the sublime, entirely natural, process that culminates in the birth of a baby.

The violinist "analogy" is fallacious, medically absurd, and fails to be analogous. Nevertheless, this "analogy" is still advanced by abortion advocates, demonstrating their dedication to abortion, even when it is at the expense of intellectual honesty"

cool skill you really need to start reading at least some of the thread before you comment.
 
James R:

"It supports the right of a woman to make her own decision, so in that sense you are right to say that if she decides to abort then the pro-choice position will support that decision. You are also right to say the pro-choice position does not take a black-and-white view in saying that all abortion is automatically wrong. To do that is to greatly oversimplify the relevant issues, which is a mistake many pro-lifers make. And let's face it - the most strident of them usually aren't too bright."

I do not claim to know the intelligences of pro-life people anymore than I claim to know the intelligences of pro-choice people. In either case, if we say that they each amount to 50 percent of the population, then it is likely that both have their fair share of stupid people, if we consider that only a small segment of our population can be construed as intelligent. That is to say, if intelligence is rare, so too is it rare on either side. There is nothing more inherently "pro-intelligent" amongst pro-choice.

But it is not necessarily an over simplification to hold the viewpoint that all abortion is wrong. One can come to a moral decision about such and affirm that.

"That is wrong. I am pro-choice, but in an ideal world I would not want any abortions to be necessary. Alas, we don't live in an ideal world."

This may be so. But though you may not wish that it were a necessity, you still want abortions by virtue of the fact that you allow it as a possibility. To allow for something as a possibility implies that you want it to manifest, whereas if you dismiss the possibility you imply that you do not ever want it. It is impossible for anyone to not support that which they do not explicitly dismiss but instead allow.
 
Theoryofrelativity:

The criticism you cut-and-pasted is fair enough, and a valid contribution to the debate.

It is a pity you chose not to respond to all the other points I made in my last post to you.


Prince_James:

But it is not necessarily an over simplification to hold the viewpoint that all abortion is wrong.

Yes, it is. It leads to ridiculous situations, such as equating pregnancies which result from rape to unplanned pregnancies resulting from consensual sex, for example. It equates abortion at 30 weeks with abortion at 2 weeks. In so doing, it ignores many variables and all extraneous circumstances in order to lay down a "one-size-fits-all" blanket rule by which the government pokes into the private lives of private citizens.
 
James R said:
Theoryofrelativity:

The criticism you cut-and-pasted is fair enough, and a valid contribution to the debate.

It is a pity you chose not to respond to all the other points I made in my last post to you.

.

I did respond and in great detail - three posts, but I deleted them after I found this as to tidy the thread up and get back to the point.

Basically in short, I have experience of drunk women (20yrs of it) and of course have been drunk many times myself. I know why women 'risk' pregancy and 'abort', I have female friends who have had as many as 4 abortions in less than 4 yrs. I also have worked in health and had a friend who worked in an abortion clinic. SO I do know what I am talking about.

Regardless, I am not saying I want to make abortion illegal. What I want is a 'limit' that is adhered to. Anaesthetic for babies over whatever period it is their CNS is developed and can likely feel pain regardles of pshychologists interpretation of what pain is. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY JAMES:
Educate women and men in what is actually involved in abortion, teach them it is NOT NICE, it is NOT humane and the priority should BE don't take risks, do not get pregnant rather than...'oh well if I do I can abort'...which IS todays thinking with Western women. The ease at which this decision is arrived at is unacceptable. Prevention of pregnancy is what I am pro.

Also, I am glad you like the cut and paste James but as it only reiterates what I said re the inadequacy of the analogy when discussing abortion, demonstrates my opinion is otherwise irrelevant.
 
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY JAMES: Educate women and men in what is actually involved in abortion, teach them it is NOT NICE, it is NOT humane and the priority should BE don't take risks, do not get pregnant rather than...'oh well if I do I can abort'...

I totally agree with this.
 
James R:

"Yes, it is. It leads to ridiculous situations, such as equating pregnancies which result from rape to unplanned pregnancies resulting from consensual sex, for example. It equates abortion at 30 weeks with abortion at 2 weeks. In so doing, it ignores many variables and all extraneous circumstances in order to lay down a "one-size-fits-all" blanket rule by which the government pokes into the private lives of private citizens. "

And why should it matter if it is rape v. consenual, at 20 weeks and 3 weeks, that it is a person's private life, et cetera, et cetera? You put these things forth as if they were irrefutable reasons to support abortion, when clearly they are simply values you have put forth. That is to say, one can still say "abortion is wrong at all times" even when one considers the above situations and not be categorically wrong.

In fact, I would argue that it is less coherent to allow for abortions in some cases, then to either allow for abortions in all cases or to allow for them in none. That is to say, that to allow exceptions, rather then deny or affirm an absolute right, demands more jumps of reasoning, by virtue of the fact that if there are exceptions, why cannot there be more exceptions?

TheoryOfRelativity:

Not to be outrageously offensive, but I must say you pick some rather horrible friends if you regularly consort with people that make a practice of aborting repeatedly and/or participate in the abortion business itself.
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

Not to be outrageously offensive, but I must say you pick some rather horrible friends if you regularly consort with people that make a practice of aborting repeatedly and/or participate in the abortion business itself.

PJames, when I meet someone I don't ask them what their views are re abortion before deciding to take them on as friends.

I have known a great many people in my life as I have moved around a lot.
I knew people through other people etc etc. But the point is this, not so much I choose 'horrible friends' but that the sad, dispicable (and hence my horror at societies welcome acceptance of abortion) is that the examples I site are common place and the norm as oppose to the irregular. Abortion has become a form of contraception for a great many irresponsible people. IT is VERY common among career women.

Three of the women I mentioned were university graduates , one business, one programming, one politics. They are well educated, attractive, intelligent females but they have had their view of abortion subdued by the media and the 'acceptance' that now surrounds it.

Finding someone who hasn't had an abortion among proffessional women is harder than not. This is the reality.

THUS we need to work more to preventing this disregard for self and unborn baby and becoming 'inconveniently' pregnant in the first place.
 
Theoryofrelativity:

I must say, I am horrified if such is true, either in the UK, the US, or any other place. When it becomes a rarity to be able to find someone in any position that has not taken such measures, speaks to me of a great and pervasive sickness.

But yes, assuredly we must do as you have suggested, rather than focus on "inconvenient pregnancies".
 
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