satan and heaven
- Thread starter robtex
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False.
Heaven is a state of being. It is a state of constant growth, of uninterrupted satisfaction. It is a state of wholeness, of completeness. It is a state of unity with the infinite that may only be had by the understanding and clear intellect.
Prior to the sin of Satan, or Lucifer (perhaps not even the same entity), he was in this state. Once sinned, he was no longer in this state. This is because in sin one loses wholeness, completeness. Furthermore, evil, sin, are forms of deconstruction, or incompleteness, and therefore growth loses its constancy, and satisfaction becomes interrupted. Once this occurs, one is disconnected from a clear and understood union with the infinite, since the infinite is the origin, and therefore the determinant of all laws. By sin, one acts contrary to law (both the particular law, as well as the general law of growth, and movement), and therefore rejects the infinite, thus this union is lost.
It is false to say that one may sin and still be in the state of heaven, since, by definition, one may not be had with the other.
Heaven is a state of being. It is a state of constant growth, of uninterrupted satisfaction. It is a state of wholeness, of completeness. It is a state of unity with the infinite that may only be had by the understanding and clear intellect.
Prior to the sin of Satan, or Lucifer (perhaps not even the same entity), he was in this state. Once sinned, he was no longer in this state. This is because in sin one loses wholeness, completeness. Furthermore, evil, sin, are forms of deconstruction, or incompleteness, and therefore growth loses its constancy, and satisfaction becomes interrupted. Once this occurs, one is disconnected from a clear and understood union with the infinite, since the infinite is the origin, and therefore the determinant of all laws. By sin, one acts contrary to law (both the particular law, as well as the general law of growth, and movement), and therefore rejects the infinite, thus this union is lost.
It is false to say that one may sin and still be in the state of heaven, since, by definition, one may not be had with the other.
what makes you think satan is evil?
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if you listen to Bush, Sadam was evil
If you lsiten to Sadam, Bush was evil
If you lsiten to me, they are both evil
if you listen to God, Satan is evil
If you listen to Satan, God is evil
If you lsiten to me, Both are good
(the only difference IMO is that satan considers the means to justify the end, whereas God doesn't)
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if you listen to Bush, Sadam was evil
If you lsiten to Sadam, Bush was evil
If you lsiten to me, they are both evil
if you listen to God, Satan is evil
If you listen to Satan, God is evil
If you lsiten to me, Both are good
(the only difference IMO is that satan considers the means to justify the end, whereas God doesn't)
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alain, in fact, nothing existing is actually evil. I never said that Satan was evil. Satan is good. However, it is merely a matter of action. While God, being an infinite being, could never act in an evil manner (evil being destructive, and the infinite being only constructive). However, Satan, being a finite being, but potentially infinite, is capable of acting in a negative way, just as both Bush and Saddam are capable of acting in negative ways, but shouldn't be considered evil as such. In actuality, something that is evil by nature would have no real existence. For, evil is only dependent upon the extent of destruction, or negation, of that which is already good. If something were purely evil, it would represent a whole, complete destruction, and therefore, there would be a total negation, coming to zero, or nothingness. Don't consider Satan as the opposite of God, for that is a false manner of consideration. Satan was a creation of God, and anything made by the infinite, is good, since it is a constructed form, rather than a deconstruction.
alain said:
well i don't think that saddam or bush are good but they are not really important in the overall eternal picture are they ?i don't know if satan has ever bad mouthed God directly. Why would he? he wants to be considered God equal.
question: What do you think the end is, that satan is justifying?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
alain said:
Alain, I don't believe in Satan but I want to point out that belief in Satan as evil is not mutually exclusive as believing Bush or Sadam or anyone else is evil. One can blieve, one a combo or all are evil and to what degree that they are. Believing in one is not disbelief in another.
If you believe in heaven take out the Lucifer part out and answer it without qualifing his status as good or evil. And answer if evil can exist in Heaven.
"well i don't think that saddam or bush are good but they are not really important in the overall eternal picture are they ?"
maybe it wasn't a good example, all i was trying to say, is that you shouldn't believe that Satan is evil just because God say he is, because it's possible that God is evil and it is just propoganda
"If you believe in heaven take out the Lucifer part out and answer it without qualifing his status as good or evil. And answer if evil can exist in Heaven"
oh, sorry for going off on a tangent. i think that evil could well exist in heaven. if we didn't have the choice to turn evil, we wouldnt have free will, and that doesn't sound too heavenly to me
maybe it wasn't a good example, all i was trying to say, is that you shouldn't believe that Satan is evil just because God say he is, because it's possible that God is evil and it is just propoganda
"If you believe in heaven take out the Lucifer part out and answer it without qualifing his status as good or evil. And answer if evil can exist in Heaven"
oh, sorry for going off on a tangent. i think that evil could well exist in heaven. if we didn't have the choice to turn evil, we wouldnt have free will, and that doesn't sound too heavenly to me
True. All evil derives as an act of God's will. Or we might just look to the Book of Job.
Of course, the question requires an additional presupposition that nobody seems to have tripped over: so, also, must we presume Heaven exists.
I highly recommend Steven Brust's early novel, To Reign in Hell.
You'll never look at Heaven and Hell the same way again. He even accounts for Mephistophiles.
Of course, the question requires an additional presupposition that nobody seems to have tripped over: so, also, must we presume Heaven exists.
I highly recommend Steven Brust's early novel, To Reign in Hell.
You'll never look at Heaven and Hell the same way again. He even accounts for Mephistophiles.
heaven and hell, dont exist. but if they did, they would be one and the same.
god is more evil than the devil.(show me some, Atrocities in the bible, where the devil is accountable.)
god is more evil than the devil.(show me some, Atrocities in the bible, where the devil is accountable.)
Someone please point me to the scriptures that claim that Satan was an Angel, was in Heaven, was cast from Heaven and anything else related to where these stories come from.
I know about the story of Lucifer in Isaiah 12:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
which, if taken in context, actually seems to be the description of a human king.
Even if you assume that "Lucifer" (that one and only verse) was referring to Satan, I would still very much like to read the scriptures that explain the whole story of the rebellion in Heaven and the war(s) and the casting out of Satan.
Where can I find all that stuff in the Bible?
Thanks
I know about the story of Lucifer in Isaiah 12:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
which, if taken in context, actually seems to be the description of a human king.
Even if you assume that "Lucifer" (that one and only verse) was referring to Satan, I would still very much like to read the scriptures that explain the whole story of the rebellion in Heaven and the war(s) and the casting out of Satan.
Where can I find all that stuff in the Bible?
Thanks
you wont find it, cause it's notthere.
all of tha is literalism. mythology was never meant to be read literally when it's referring to spirital matters
the Lucifer reference. It has been shown to have at least two references. one to a tyrant, and a deeper reference to magical hallucinogenic plants--like especially hallucinogenic phallic-shaped fungi
You'd need to look at J.Allegro's book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross , for more info into this
Mushrooms were believed to be generated by Lightening--as there were no microscopes then the knowledge of spoes was not known, so their progeny was a mystery
couple that with the actual awesome experiences proffered by certain shrooms, one can very much understand how their presnce would have been central in mythology
'Weaken the nations' could mean that the patriarchal warring tribes who dominated the shroom using agrarian peoples may have seen them as not conjusive for macho warring tribal life........i mean we know how WE are now dont we. and you could imagine how a war leader might view magic mushrooms and running laughing through the countryside, right?!
as for heaven and hell. think of when you feel real good and real bad. and understand the depths of these feelings......but what we have to understand is CHANGE. what the Christians did/do is make 'heaven' and 'hell' into abstractions opposed to each other, and also make them static!
all of tha is literalism. mythology was never meant to be read literally when it's referring to spirital matters
the Lucifer reference. It has been shown to have at least two references. one to a tyrant, and a deeper reference to magical hallucinogenic plants--like especially hallucinogenic phallic-shaped fungi
You'd need to look at J.Allegro's book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross , for more info into this
Mushrooms were believed to be generated by Lightening--as there were no microscopes then the knowledge of spoes was not known, so their progeny was a mystery
couple that with the actual awesome experiences proffered by certain shrooms, one can very much understand how their presnce would have been central in mythology
'Weaken the nations' could mean that the patriarchal warring tribes who dominated the shroom using agrarian peoples may have seen them as not conjusive for macho warring tribal life........i mean we know how WE are now dont we. and you could imagine how a war leader might view magic mushrooms and running laughing through the countryside, right?!
as for heaven and hell. think of when you feel real good and real bad. and understand the depths of these feelings......but what we have to understand is CHANGE. what the Christians did/do is make 'heaven' and 'hell' into abstractions opposed to each other, and also make them static!
Satan did have freedom to go from heaven to earth as he pleased.
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
8Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
lucifer wanted to be "like the most High" like God. The prophet Isaiah predicted the fall of satan from Heaven.
Isaiah 14
The Fall of Lucifer
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13For you have said in your heart:
"I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
The Messiah Jesus also saw the fall of satan from Heaven
Luke 10
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
The fall was described in the book of Revelation
Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Upon the return of the Messiah, satan will be bound and imprisoned for 1000 years:
Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
satan will be released and will deceive the nations once more and lead them into the final rebellion against God. He will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire:
Revealtion 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
8Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
lucifer wanted to be "like the most High" like God. The prophet Isaiah predicted the fall of satan from Heaven.
Isaiah 14
The Fall of Lucifer
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13For you have said in your heart:
"I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
The Messiah Jesus also saw the fall of satan from Heaven
Luke 10
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
The fall was described in the book of Revelation
Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Upon the return of the Messiah, satan will be bound and imprisoned for 1000 years:
Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
satan will be released and will deceive the nations once more and lead them into the final rebellion against God. He will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire:
Revealtion 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Satan never lead a rebellion in heaven. Isaiah 14, is about the king of Babylon (even the Jews don't think that one is about the devil). Even the name Lucifer does not actually appear in the Hebrew (it is added by the translators). The name in Isa 14 is Shakara (which is the name of the morning star - which some cultures worshipped as part of their pantheon of gods). Don't think that just because Isaiah mentioned the name of a star and that someone else in some other culture worshipped that star, that this is about the devil - verse 4 specifically says this is a prophecy about the (future?) king of Babylon (Nebuchadnessar?).
Satan does appear in heaven in the book of Job. Satan does get thrown out in Luke and in Revelations and his angels were cast out too. (Is this heaven the arch of the sky like in Gen 1, or is the the heaven refered to as the stars or is it the kingdom of heaven, God's heavenly kingdom?)
Satan does appear in heaven in the book of Job. Satan does get thrown out in Luke and in Revelations and his angels were cast out too. (Is this heaven the arch of the sky like in Gen 1, or is the the heaven refered to as the stars or is it the kingdom of heaven, God's heavenly kingdom?)
the mushroom imagery is inescapable....Morning Star...which was believed to sent down powerful dew which increased the potency of magical plants.....and Arching Sky....
as distasteful as this may be to many taken in by the drug war propaganda, we have to understand the awe surrounding hallucinogenic plants /9which of course still exists even in this age of technological marvels!)
these plants were angels, in that they werer imagined to be proginated by Lightening, and the eating of them could give 'messages'...'Angels' were 'messengers'.......So why connect them with 'satan'?.....again, a mixture of associations......a pointing to the good and evil afforded by magical experience and knowledge, and propaganda against them, in regard of the pagan users disobeying the 'authority of the "Word"/text" and not Direct Experience
for anyone with experience of hallucinogens, surely they are aware of the hells and heavens etc of potential experience having imbided them?
so, probably FROM such experience, when dogma was set down, these changng experiences get abstracted out, and then used politically to control people. to say they will go to 'hell' IF they dont obey the patriarchal authority/"God"
as distasteful as this may be to many taken in by the drug war propaganda, we have to understand the awe surrounding hallucinogenic plants /9which of course still exists even in this age of technological marvels!)
these plants were angels, in that they werer imagined to be proginated by Lightening, and the eating of them could give 'messages'...'Angels' were 'messengers'.......So why connect them with 'satan'?.....again, a mixture of associations......a pointing to the good and evil afforded by magical experience and knowledge, and propaganda against them, in regard of the pagan users disobeying the 'authority of the "Word"/text" and not Direct Experience
for anyone with experience of hallucinogens, surely they are aware of the hells and heavens etc of potential experience having imbided them?
so, probably FROM such experience, when dogma was set down, these changng experiences get abstracted out, and then used politically to control people. to say they will go to 'hell' IF they dont obey the patriarchal authority/"God"
Cute imagry. However, I am struck by the fact that Isaiah wrote this about 500BC and the Catholics did not "discover" this Lucifer passage until 700-800AD. It seems incredible that the Catholics could tell the Jews what a Jewish passage meant over a millinium after it was recorded! The Catholics did not come up with (cannonize) the whole "Devil in charge of Hell" & "Christians first go to Purgatory" teaching until 790AD! How in the Hell (excuse the pun) can something this important not come into being until 700 years AFTER CHRIST! (Can you tell I'm kind of down on the Catholic Church?)
David F. said:
that is an interesting statement. Do you have any references you found that approximates or tells when Lucifer was first used in scipture? Was Lucifer, Satan, or the devil used in any of the dead sea scrolls?
David with this passage are you contended that the Bible was written by man or altered by man or both?
If it was altered where (other than dead sea scrolls) is an unaltered version for viewing?
Someone please explain to me why people think that Isaiah 14 refers to Satan.
Reading it in context, it seems perfectly plain and simple to me that it was referring to a human King that had the arrogance to state that he was equal or above God.
I don't know where they find the connection between Lucifer and Satan.
Reading it in context, it seems perfectly plain and simple to me that it was referring to a human King that had the arrogance to state that he was equal or above God.
I don't know where they find the connection between Lucifer and Satan.