Santa Claus and God--Likely Bed Fellows

[TheNatMan]

Sitting in the bathtub the other day, i had a song stuck in my head. A song that has reaffirmed my atheism more than anything i have exprerieced. The song was Jingle Bells. And, of course, that brought up Santa. I began to think about Santa, and then somehow my thoughts wandered off to other things, including God. But then i had to backtrack some. Santa Claus? God? It was all so clear. From that day forward, i have worshipped Santa Claus as the creator of the universe. Think about it:
1. There is just as much, if not MORE evidence for the existence of Santa Claus than there is for the existence of God: AKA the Bible. Santa Claus has numerous books, poems, and songs written about him. All claim that he exists, and who is to say that if one of them said he invented the universe, he didn't?
2. There are just as mant improbabilities surrounding the existence of both. Questions such as: how the HELL does such a fat man fit down a chimney? how does he get arround the world, to every house everywhere, in ONE NIGHT? and what about the orphans? can be very acurately compared to: Which came first, the person or the animals? (see Genesis 1 and 2) Why are so many people starving? and why do bad things happen to good people?
3. Both have an ambiguous and rather arbitrary concept of right and wrong, the differences depending on which part of the Bible and which Christmas story you read.
4. Both reward the believers and punish the nonbelievers. (presents=salvation, coal=damnation)
5. THEY HAVE THE SAME HOLIDAY celebrating their existence
6. They both have the same attitude towards women: Mrs. Claus just kind of sits there and plays a very minor role, while expected to do Santa's bidding the rest of the year. Eve came from Adam and was thus subservient to him for the rest of time (or so some Christians would say)
7. When i found out Santa didn't exist, my mom told me santa was inside every one of us.
8. Santa lives in the North pole. There is no such place. God lives in Heaven. They used to think that was in the clouds, until we flew around up there with planes, and now its somewhere in space...or something.
9. Both "work in mysterious ways"--sometimes the little spoiled brat down the way gets more presents than the good kid who respects his parents and their incomes.
10. There is only one Santa, and if you think otherwise, you dont know anything about Christmas, and should die a horrible death in the name of our peaceful Lord.

The list goes on and on. But i wonder: will there be a day when science finally proves that He doesn't Exist? Will God become nothing more than what parents tell their children to believe in so that they can get presents (are we already there?) Maybe all Christians are little kids, who have yet to find out the truth? And then what about the Greek gods? how can we be so sure they don't exist, and still convene on Mt. Olympus? Just some thoughts. Argue, support, and contribute to the list if you can!

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by TheNatMan
Sitting in the bathtub the other day, i had a song stuck in my head. A song that has reaffirmed my atheism more than anything i have exprerieced. The song was Jingle Bells. And, of course, that brought up Santa. I began to think about Santa, and then somehow my thoughts wandered off to other things, including God. But then i had to backtrack some. Santa Claus? God? It was all so clear.

Great discoveries happen when sitting in the bathtub. In such a situation 'Jingle Bells' being remembered was also natural. Then comes Santa and that too was natural. Then follows God, oh, that too was natural. Promoting Santa as God has something to do with over adimiration for Santa.

 

[EvilPoet]

God Versus Santa Claus

Santa Claus
Comes around on Christmas.

God
His son was born on Christmas.

Santa Claus
Looks like an old bearded, mustached,
long-haired white-haired Caucasian
man.

God
Looks like an old bearded, mustached,
long-haired white-haired Caucasian
man.

Santa Claus
Is believed in by misguided children.

God
Is believed in by misguided adults.

Santa Claus
Promises presents for good behavior
and coal for bad behavior.

God
Promises Heaven for good behavior
and Hell for bad behavior.

Source: Heretic Headquarters

 

[everneo]

Atheists
Don't believe in any controlling supernatural being above them.

The God
Doesn't believe in any controlling supernatural being above him.

Since atheists exist God too exists. What a logic..

 

[EvilPoet]

"To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition."
-Woody Allen

 

[TheNatMan]

CRAZY! The owner of that site must have had a similar bathtub epiphany.

 

[okinrus]

Santa Claus did exist just by another <a href="http://www.christmas.com/pe/1375">name</a>. What does this prove? Well it proves that your concept of God may be false but perhaps if you look harder you will find him.

 

[EvilPoet]

Epiphanies in the Bathroom

Originally posted by TheNatMan
CRAZY! The owner of that site must
have had a similar bathtub epiphany.

"I have bathroom epiphanies. My deepest thoughts
come to me in there. Must be the solitude." -seven

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by okinrus
Well it proves that your concept of God may be false but perhaps if you look harder you will find him.

How hard is harder? So hard that you start to delude yourself?

I attached a picture. Do yo want to swear to God that the color on the lighter square A is different than the darker square B? If you do, you are a true liar.

 

[okinrus]

That's a pretty good one. I even opened it up int Paint shop. Your going to have a tough time making the A appear like B though. All this shows is that your intution about common objects can be as wrong as our intution about God.

 

[daktaklakpak]

You are right. We can use paintshop to verify the color so that everyone agrees, even the non-believers. However, what can you use to verify god so that everyone agrees?

 

[okinrus]

Well you can examine this <a href="http://www.zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm">picture</a> I haven't done too much investigation on this but it seem genuine. Accounts are given that even muslims saw Mary.

 

[okinrus]

Another cool picture is this <a href="http://www.sancta.org/cgi/display.nor?image=imagen_pic_300w.jpg">one</a>

 

[TheNatMan]

Originally posted by okinrus
Well it proves that your concept of God may be false but perhaps if you look harder you will find him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You didnt Capitalize the "Him", okinrus. He doesn't Like That. But aside from That, you have just exhibited a prime example of what i like to call a "blanket statement". It is the Christian's most powerful form of defense. These "blanket statements" are things such as "you dont know the REAL God", or "you will find Him if you Look", or "God works in mysterious ways". They are all used to glide over the very obvious logical fallacies presented in believing in God. Using those statements, you make the belief in God literally INVINCIBLE. You can use those statements to justify any old thing you want, including killing people, and throughout history Christians HAVE used such statements to do so. Which I suppose is one way in which Santa Claus is NOT like God, in that Santa doesnt have an army of overly dedicated followers (unless you count the Christians who celebrate his holiday). But I wonder, Okinrus. Is your concept of god TRUE? That seems to be the converse of what you're saying. Are you confident that everything you read from the Bible is true, and that you are getting the original message from it? Do you recognize a similarity between what God teaches (those messages) and what you practiced before you "found" him? Isn't it a coincidence that you two are pretty similar? Isnt a coincidence that there is nothing He teaches (in your eyes) that you disagree with? It is because you use him, as all Christians do, to put further force behind what you say. You see God as a way to believe what you want and claim that it was pre-ordained, and correct. But this is a thread about the Almighty Santa. LET HIM LIVE ON TO ETERNITY!Viva La Santos! (note, i never took Spanish...if someone could get that right i would appreciate it)
P.S. Evilpoet: That really is crazy how an idea you think is new pops up all over the place...

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by TheNatMan
Evilpoet: That really is crazy how an idea you
think is new pops up all over the place...

You know what they say, "there is nothing new under the sun."

 

[okinrus]

You didnt Capitalize the "Him", okinrus. He doesn't Like That.

Hebrew doesn't have caps.

These "blanket statements" are things such as "you dont know the REAL God", or "you will find Him if you Look", or "God works in mysterious ways". They are all used to glide over the very obvious logical fallacies presented in believing in God. Using those statements, you make the belief in God literally INVINCIBLE

Wait a minute. Didn't I just show you a picture of an apparition of Mary seen by 1000s of egyptians of just about every faith. The picture shown in guadalupe in itself is a miracle. A painting on a tilma that lasted 400 years. Yeah right? I have proven that you cannot prove anything exists in the physical world because all we know is through observation.

That seems to be the converse of what you're saying. Are you confident that everything you read from the Bible is true, and that you are getting the original message from it?
[/qoute]
Yes. It's all theologically true. There might be some physical mistakes made by scribes. Some of the stories may in fact be Jewish myths but the message contained is true and we know that it is true by the Holy Spirit.

Do you recognize a similarity between what God teaches (those messages) and what you practiced before you "found" him? Isn't it a coincidence that you two are pretty similar? Isnt a coincidence that there is nothing He teaches (in your eyes) that you disagree with?

No I don't find any similarity, because anything I do without God is evil. I am convinced that the entire law of God is build upon the two premises of loving him with all your heart, mind, and soul and loving your neighbor as you love yourself.

Viva La Santos! (note, i never took Spanish...if someone could get that right i would appreciate it)

I think Santos means saints in spanish. Maybe it's Viva el Santo.

 

[okinrus]

You didnt Capitalize the "Him", okinrus. He doesn't Like That.

Hebrew doesn't have caps.

These "blanket statements" are things such as "you dont know the REAL God", or "you will find Him if you Look", or "God works in mysterious ways". They are all used to glide over the very obvious logical fallacies presented in believing in God. Using those statements, you make the belief in God literally INVINCIBLE

Wait a minute. Didn't I just show you a picture of an apparition of Mary seen by 1000s of egyptians of just about every faith. The picture shown in guadalupe in itself is a miracle. A painting on a tilma that lasted 400 years. Yeah right? And then there is the miracle of Fatima seen by 70,000. I have proven that you cannot prove anything exists in the physical world because all we know is through observation.

That seems to be the converse of what you're saying. Are you confident that everything you read from the Bible is true, and that you are getting the original message from it?
[/qoute]
Yes. It's all theologically true. There might be some physical mistakes made by scribes. Some of the stories may in fact be Jewish myths but the message contained is true and we know that it is true by the Holy Spirit.

Do you recognize a similarity between what God teaches (those messages) and what you practiced before you "found" him? Isn't it a coincidence that you two are pretty similar? Isnt a coincidence that there is nothing He teaches (in your eyes) that you disagree with?

No I don't find any similarity, because anything I do without God is evil. I am convinced that the entire law of God is build upon the two premises of loving him with all your heart, mind, and soul and loving your neighbor as you love yourself.

Viva La Santos! (note, i never took Spanish...if someone could get that right i would appreciate it)

I think Santos means saints in spanish. Maybe it's Viva el Santo.

 

[TheNatMan]

"Didn't I just show you a picture of an apparition of Mary seen by 1000s of egyptians of just about every faith. The picture shown in guadalupe in itself is a miracle."
Okinrus, 1000's of people have seen UFOs, and more than that have been probed by them. but does that make them exist?
And i think you misinterpreted my other question. What i meant is are you confident that what you are reading from the Bible is what God originally intended you to? if he indeed exists. Are you confident that your interpretation is the one that He would have wanted you to have?
And same with the other question. What i meant there is are you confident that you and God have the exact same value system? Because the Bible is pretty pro-slavery, and you said that the law of God promotes a love your neighbor way of thinking. How can you explain the pro-slavery passages? (see Leviticus 25:45-46, Genesis 9:25, Exodus 21:2,7, Joel 3:8, Luke 12:47,48, and Colossians 3:22.) God very clearly endorses it. So is thinking otherwise Evil, as you have said? just something to think about

 

[okinrus]

Okinrus, 1000's of people have seen UFOs, and more than that have been probed by them. but does that make them exist?

Well all that means is that we search for an explanation. I have not seen a valid picture of an alien and ones of UFO's are usually found to be hoaxes or optical effects.

And i think you misinterpreted my other question. What i meant is are you confident that what you are reading from the Bible is what God originally intended you to? if he indeed exists. Are you confident that your interpretation is the one that He would have wante you to have?

I'm confident that if I interpret a passage wrong then God will forgive me. Usually I'm fairly certain of the Church's interpretation and if need be, I can consult 100s of other interpretations. There is a few difficult passages that can really be interpreted many ways.

Because the Bible is pretty pro-slavery, and you said that the law of God promotes a love your neighbor way of thinking. How can you explain the pro-slavery passages?

There are several points that must be made.

0. endorsement is totally different than allowance. America allows gambling, pornography, kkk and nazi propaganda. Does the US endorse all of these? No of course not.

1. The Old Testament's laws are bare minimum and do not bring rightousness. Jesus said the law allowed divorse because of the Isrealites hardness of heart. It reasonable that certain practices that are not fully rightous might be allowed due to this reason.

2. Slavery as practiced back then was not always the brutal form practiced in the American South. The disparity between races was not there. Often times the slaves would be dependant on their masters or were indentured servents.

3. We are all spiritual sons of God. The Jewish Exodus can be seen as a retaliation against slavery.

4. What Paul says does not endorse slavery. The message of Christ was against revolt. Paul also makes it clear that we are all servents of God even the slave master.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by okinrus
The picture shown in guadalupe in itself is a miracle. A painting on a tilma that lasted 400 years.

These claims have a tendency to fall apart under analysis. Unfortunately folklore generally ignores such analysis and the myths grow regardless:

“Actually, infrared photographs show that the hands have been modified, and close-up photography shows that pigment has been applied to the highlight areas of the face sufficiently heavily so as to obscure the texture of the cloth. There is also obvious cracking and flaking of paint all along a vertical seam, and the infrared photos reveal in the robe's fold what appear to be sketch lines, suggesting that an artist roughed out the figure before painting it. Portrait artist Glenn Taylor has pointed out that the part in the Virgin's hair is off-center; that her eyes, including the irises, have outlines, as they often do in paintings, but not in nature, and that these outlines appear to have been done with a brush; and that much other evidence suggests the picture was probably copied by an inexpert artist from an expertly done original.

In fact, during a formal investigation of the cloth in 1556, it was stated that the image was "painted yesteryear by an Indian," specifically "the Indian painter Marcos." This was probably the Aztec painter Marcos Cipac de Aquino who was active in Mexico at the time the Image of Guadalupe appeared. “http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html

As to the apparition of Mary; thousands of people saw lights of unknown origin and took them to be visions of Mary despite the lack of any detail that would suggest such identification. The accounts sound very much like those of UFO sightings in the US. As is typical with such things people tend interpret unidentified phenomenon according to cultural prejudice and other psychological influences. As the sightings took place over a Church named after Mary this influence is easily inferred; if the same ‘apparition’ were to take place over an English wheat field they would probably be claimed as alien spacecraft. The people saw something… just what it was is quite open to speculation.

Here’s an interesting article on Epidemic Hysteria as well. Suggestion is a very powerful thing.
http://www.sma.org/smj1999/augsmj99/bartholomew.pdf

~Raithere