Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Quadraphonics
They are not put in prison for study they are placed there because they have committed a crime. The study aspect is useful in understanding their nature, just the same way they study pedophiles in prison to understand their nature.
WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY! YOU HAVE HARE THE FOREMOST EXPERT ON PSYCHOPATHY SAYING THAT TREATMENT ACTUALLY MAKES THEM WORSE! The have a higher rate of recidivism than others especially after 'treatment'. There is no treatment for psychopaths, no drugs. Talk therapy in prisons are utilized as a form of studying the psychopath but its not 'treatment'.
Quad: study, isolation from society, etc. I did just go over these purposes in explicit detail.
So you would place a criminal back into society so you can study them within society? A mental institution is no more of a 'normal' place of study than a prison.
Quad: But you can legally sedate people who are criminally disturbed, hence my recommendation. In particular, you can do this after sentencing them to a mental hospital under the care of experts in the field.
Really? Show me what prison in the US is actively sedating prisoners when they don't need it? And by without need I mean if they are not suffering from some anxiety etc. Give me link that establishes drug treatment for say violent gang members, rapists and murderers? Drug therapy is given for a reason not to change the nature of an individual which is what you are suggesting. The experts in the field study violent psychopaths where they naturally belong which is in prison. You haven't given any evidence that giving drugs to a psychopath leads to them being any less of a psychopath. If this were possible they would be doing it right now. Drugs are for treatment, to improve not to immobilize. It seems as though you are suggesting drugging all violent criminals psychopaths or not into immobility and lack of coordination, like some Clockwork Orange scenario.
Quad: it's been demonstrated that distributing marijuana to prisoners greatly lowers incidents of violence in the facility.
And have they proven the same works with psychopaths? Not all prisoners are psychopaths. Its like saying Ted Bundy would have been a more reasonable individual if he only had a little weed (LOL!)
Quad: You can sedate them to the point where they lack the mobility and coordination to harm anyone (not to mention the attention and focus to plan anything). They aren't going to be torturing any children when they're under heavy sedation inside a secure mental hospital.
Show me where it is legal to medically keep someone continually under sedation til they lack mobility and coordination under the assumption that they will behave badly in a prison setting? All psychopaths don't murder children, many of them don't even end up in prison. Some of them will remain in prison without being violent but that doesn't mean their nature has changed. They will still be a psychopath and the fact that they have been incarcerated for a crime doesn't mean they will never commit another crime. Look at Dahmer, was he violent in prison? No. What about Bundy? They are manipulative, intelligent and cunning. They use other's sympathies (people like you) to get what they want, sometimes that means their freedom. Cause you know 'they've changed'.
Quad: People in prison don't act the same way as unincarcerated people do. It's indeed possible that many of your supposedly-ironclad scientific statements about psychopaths are completely wrong - products of studying them in a hostile, stressful environment rife with opportunity and motivation for anti-social behavior.
There is a lot that science doesn't know or will revise but I don't here too many people complaining about the inaccuracy of work by people like Hare. Also what they do know is significant to say the least, for example the biological component to the condition, the fact that it isn't brought on by environment nor childhood. Again I will remind you that a mental institution is not a 'natural social environment' nor are they necessarily more lax. The difference is that they are being treated by nurses and doctors. Psychopaths don't require nurses or doctors, they are not delusional nor do they move in and out of mental states, they know the difference between right and wrong and reason quite well, they are intelligent and not divorced from reality. They are also completely without care and empathy for others because they lack the component to feel for others. A mental institution can do nothing for someone like that.
Quad: they lack the ability to care. The primary mechanism for inhibiting anti-social behavior in humans is held to be totally, innately absent from these people. They are simply defective, in a way that leads to criminality, so what's the point of trying to "punish" them? Why not just kill them? After all, they aren't even really human. What's the point in subjecting all of your non-psychopathic prisoners to these people?
Prison is not necessarily about punishment, its about taking dangerous people out of society. Its about making sure that society is safe from said people. Manson doesn't mind being in jail and also doesn't find it a punishment are you suggesting that he should be released from prison on the basis that he isn't suffering in prison? In some states they do practice the death penalty and some of them will indeed be psychopaths. Are they human? Sure but so is the guy who is serving life in prison for some heinous crime that isn't a psychopath. Psychopaths probably have more of an ability to learn a system and use it to their benefit, the 'affect' they use to manipulate and seduce. They probably will show more cunning than your average misguided criminal who really just needs some understanding and can be turned around. Mind you psychopaths are placed with those who are just as devious as they are so I would't worry about them too much.
You might find this excerpt interesting:
“There has been a long tradition of research on psychopathy that has focused on the lack of sensitivity to punishment and a lack of fear, but those traits are not particularly good predictors of violence or criminal behavior,” David Zald, associate professor of psychology and of psychiatry and co-author of the study, said. “Our data is suggesting that something might be happening on the other side of things. These individuals appear to have such a strong draw to reward—to the carrot—that it overwhelms the sense of risk or concern about the stick.”
To examine the relationship between dopamine and psychopathy, the researchers used positron emission tomography, or PET, imaging of the brain to measure dopamine release, in concert with a functional magnetic imaging, or fMRI, probe of the brain’s reward system.
“The really striking thing is with these two very different techniques we saw a very similar pattern—both were heightened in individuals with psychopathic traits,” Zald said.
Study volunteers were given a personality test to determine their level of psychopathic traits. These traits exist on a spectrum, with violent criminals falling at the extreme end of the spectrum. However, a normally functioning person can also have the traits, which include manipulativeness, egocentricity, aggression and risk taking.
In the first portion of the experiment, the researchers gave the volunteers a dose of amphetamine, or speed, and then scanned their brains using PET to view dopamine release in response to the stimulant. Substance abuse has been shown in the past to be associated with alterations in dopamine responses. Psychopathy is strongly associated with substance abuse.
“Our hypothesis was that psychopathic traits are also linked to dysfunction in dopamine reward circuitry,” Buckholtz said. “Consistent with what we thought, we found people with high levels of psychopathic traits had almost four times the amount of dopamine released in response to amphetamine.”
http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/new...eek-rewards-no-matter-the-consequences.109865
Like I said before if they ever find a drug that works on psychopaths they would use it but as the article points out their brains are actually different and will respond differently to drugs and environmental stimuli. At present there is nothing you can do but study them further in the facilities where they belong which is prison. If they ever find a way to manage the psychopaths there will be many a happy folk but for now there is no such management of their disorder.
They are not put in prison for study they are placed there because they have committed a crime. The study aspect is useful in understanding their nature, just the same way they study pedophiles in prison to understand their nature.
WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY! YOU HAVE HARE THE FOREMOST EXPERT ON PSYCHOPATHY SAYING THAT TREATMENT ACTUALLY MAKES THEM WORSE! The have a higher rate of recidivism than others especially after 'treatment'. There is no treatment for psychopaths, no drugs. Talk therapy in prisons are utilized as a form of studying the psychopath but its not 'treatment'.
Quad: study, isolation from society, etc. I did just go over these purposes in explicit detail.
So you would place a criminal back into society so you can study them within society? A mental institution is no more of a 'normal' place of study than a prison.
Quad: But you can legally sedate people who are criminally disturbed, hence my recommendation. In particular, you can do this after sentencing them to a mental hospital under the care of experts in the field.
Really? Show me what prison in the US is actively sedating prisoners when they don't need it? And by without need I mean if they are not suffering from some anxiety etc. Give me link that establishes drug treatment for say violent gang members, rapists and murderers? Drug therapy is given for a reason not to change the nature of an individual which is what you are suggesting. The experts in the field study violent psychopaths where they naturally belong which is in prison. You haven't given any evidence that giving drugs to a psychopath leads to them being any less of a psychopath. If this were possible they would be doing it right now. Drugs are for treatment, to improve not to immobilize. It seems as though you are suggesting drugging all violent criminals psychopaths or not into immobility and lack of coordination, like some Clockwork Orange scenario.
Quad: it's been demonstrated that distributing marijuana to prisoners greatly lowers incidents of violence in the facility.
And have they proven the same works with psychopaths? Not all prisoners are psychopaths. Its like saying Ted Bundy would have been a more reasonable individual if he only had a little weed (LOL!)
Quad: You can sedate them to the point where they lack the mobility and coordination to harm anyone (not to mention the attention and focus to plan anything). They aren't going to be torturing any children when they're under heavy sedation inside a secure mental hospital.
Show me where it is legal to medically keep someone continually under sedation til they lack mobility and coordination under the assumption that they will behave badly in a prison setting? All psychopaths don't murder children, many of them don't even end up in prison. Some of them will remain in prison without being violent but that doesn't mean their nature has changed. They will still be a psychopath and the fact that they have been incarcerated for a crime doesn't mean they will never commit another crime. Look at Dahmer, was he violent in prison? No. What about Bundy? They are manipulative, intelligent and cunning. They use other's sympathies (people like you) to get what they want, sometimes that means their freedom. Cause you know 'they've changed'.
Quad: People in prison don't act the same way as unincarcerated people do. It's indeed possible that many of your supposedly-ironclad scientific statements about psychopaths are completely wrong - products of studying them in a hostile, stressful environment rife with opportunity and motivation for anti-social behavior.
There is a lot that science doesn't know or will revise but I don't here too many people complaining about the inaccuracy of work by people like Hare. Also what they do know is significant to say the least, for example the biological component to the condition, the fact that it isn't brought on by environment nor childhood. Again I will remind you that a mental institution is not a 'natural social environment' nor are they necessarily more lax. The difference is that they are being treated by nurses and doctors. Psychopaths don't require nurses or doctors, they are not delusional nor do they move in and out of mental states, they know the difference between right and wrong and reason quite well, they are intelligent and not divorced from reality. They are also completely without care and empathy for others because they lack the component to feel for others. A mental institution can do nothing for someone like that.
Quad: they lack the ability to care. The primary mechanism for inhibiting anti-social behavior in humans is held to be totally, innately absent from these people. They are simply defective, in a way that leads to criminality, so what's the point of trying to "punish" them? Why not just kill them? After all, they aren't even really human. What's the point in subjecting all of your non-psychopathic prisoners to these people?
Prison is not necessarily about punishment, its about taking dangerous people out of society. Its about making sure that society is safe from said people. Manson doesn't mind being in jail and also doesn't find it a punishment are you suggesting that he should be released from prison on the basis that he isn't suffering in prison? In some states they do practice the death penalty and some of them will indeed be psychopaths. Are they human? Sure but so is the guy who is serving life in prison for some heinous crime that isn't a psychopath. Psychopaths probably have more of an ability to learn a system and use it to their benefit, the 'affect' they use to manipulate and seduce. They probably will show more cunning than your average misguided criminal who really just needs some understanding and can be turned around. Mind you psychopaths are placed with those who are just as devious as they are so I would't worry about them too much.
You might find this excerpt interesting:
“There has been a long tradition of research on psychopathy that has focused on the lack of sensitivity to punishment and a lack of fear, but those traits are not particularly good predictors of violence or criminal behavior,” David Zald, associate professor of psychology and of psychiatry and co-author of the study, said. “Our data is suggesting that something might be happening on the other side of things. These individuals appear to have such a strong draw to reward—to the carrot—that it overwhelms the sense of risk or concern about the stick.”
To examine the relationship between dopamine and psychopathy, the researchers used positron emission tomography, or PET, imaging of the brain to measure dopamine release, in concert with a functional magnetic imaging, or fMRI, probe of the brain’s reward system.
“The really striking thing is with these two very different techniques we saw a very similar pattern—both were heightened in individuals with psychopathic traits,” Zald said.
Study volunteers were given a personality test to determine their level of psychopathic traits. These traits exist on a spectrum, with violent criminals falling at the extreme end of the spectrum. However, a normally functioning person can also have the traits, which include manipulativeness, egocentricity, aggression and risk taking.
In the first portion of the experiment, the researchers gave the volunteers a dose of amphetamine, or speed, and then scanned their brains using PET to view dopamine release in response to the stimulant. Substance abuse has been shown in the past to be associated with alterations in dopamine responses. Psychopathy is strongly associated with substance abuse.
“Our hypothesis was that psychopathic traits are also linked to dysfunction in dopamine reward circuitry,” Buckholtz said. “Consistent with what we thought, we found people with high levels of psychopathic traits had almost four times the amount of dopamine released in response to amphetamine.”
http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/new...eek-rewards-no-matter-the-consequences.109865
Like I said before if they ever find a drug that works on psychopaths they would use it but as the article points out their brains are actually different and will respond differently to drugs and environmental stimuli. At present there is nothing you can do but study them further in the facilities where they belong which is prison. If they ever find a way to manage the psychopaths there will be many a happy folk but for now there is no such management of their disorder.
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