Russia, China could support N.Korea

[Spyke]

Agent Orange is not a "WMD",

Is it not a chemical weapon? Thus WMD, also does it not affect a wide area, and does it not cause massive enviromental damage, and medical damage to those it affects?

But Nico, Agent Orange, or any of the other agents (Blue, White, Purple, etc.) used in Vietnam, were not intended to be WMDs on people. It was a defoliate, used to destroy forests that provided enemy cover and crops that fed the NVA and Viet Cong. It was also used domestically by civilians in the States. The problem was that in its military capacity in Vietnam it was used at 27x the level that it was used domestically on a particular area, which obviously seriously increased the dioxin level (dioxin was a byproduct contaminant). Also because of the large amounts requested by the military the manufacturing process was greatly accelerated, which increased the dioxin level of the agents used in Vietnam.

 

[Stokes Pennwalt]

Re: That is, of course, complete nonsense.

Originally posted by nico
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27265

Fristly I suggest you read that.

Done. It doesn't add anything new though. Despite the rampant tinfoil and anti-American cheerleading, all it amounts to is conjectural extrapolation. The document it references only tells us what we already know: WMD, ballistic missiles, and a threat to the global energy supply are not good things for any of us.

Where did you find that article? It's rather poorly founded and composed. I'd like to read it at its source just the same.

Is it not a chemical weapon?

Nope. It's a defoliant. Read the Chemical Weapons Convention, and try again.

Rumsfeld moved B-1B bombers to Guam to thwart any NK moves.

I am aware of that. What bearing does this have on the MIGHTY VAST NORTH KOREAN AIR FORCE POISED TO STRIKE GUAM@!!!1 that you were talking about? None. Andersen AFB is home to two tactical fighter wings of F-15s and F-16s. Not to mention that an aircraft moving there from NK would need to circumvent Japanese air defenses. North Korea's air force is poorly trained primarily due to lack of fuel and secondarily due to lack of serviceable aircraft, not to mention poor equipment in general. They don't pose a threat outside of the peninsula.

 

[nico]

Done. It doesn't add anything new though. Despite the rampant tinfoil and anti-American cheerleading, all it amounts to is conjectural extrapolation. The document it references only tells us what we already know: WMD, ballistic missiles, and a threat to the global energy supply are not good things for any of us.


Sorry if reality hurts man, the real reason was that nations that have WMD, and ICBM's and the like are to dictated by the US. Imperialism, and PNAC, I HOPE TO GOD THAT CHINA STOPS THIS SOON!

Nope. It's a defoliant. Read the Chemical Weapons Convention, and try again.

Well sorry, WMD is described as NBC, thus Agent x which ever one is a WMD. It has killed untold thousands, still affects harvests in Vietnam today and is responsible for birth defects. Nice try u de-humanized shit but it dosen't matter what it's "original" purpose was.

What bearing does this have on the MIGHTY VAST NORTH KOREAN AIR FORCE POISED TO STRIKE GUAM@!!!

Where did i say that, you educated idiot?

They don't pose a threat outside of the peninsula.

No shite Sherlock The Bombers are there reject to do pre-emptive attacks on NK nuke facilities should NK gear for war, or at a time the US finds imperative. I mean where did u decuct the NK air force going to Guam, I highly doubt any fighter can do a round trip from Pyongyang to Guam un-refeuled. Also BOMBERS not F-16's, you know things that made specificly to drop bobms. Are you crazy?

 

[Spyke]

Well sorry, WMD is described as NBC, thus Agent x which ever one is a WMD. It has killed untold thousands, still affects harvests in Vietnam today and is responsible for birth defects. Nice try oyu de-humanized shit but it dosen't matter what it's "original" purpose was.

I believe it was a UN report released in 1969 that first condemned any chemical that killed either people, mammals, or plants (which included the various agents being used in Vietnam). The US quit using Agent Orange in 1971 when scientists discovered that it contained the most deadly form of dioxin, TCDD, which was causing cancer in lab rats. It does matter what it's original intent was. It was not used for the specific purpose of taking human life. If the US had been intent on using it as a WMD they could have simply shifted focus to North Vietnam and not risked exposure to their own troops.

 

[nico]

Well then Spyke comes the question about WMD, firstly it is non-conventional muintions, it has to be a NBC product. Ok now comes the question, is WMD if it was originally designed to be one, or her effects have the capability of being a WMD. I think if you know that it is a chem. weapon, and it has the possibility to cause massive civilian and military damage then it is WMD, no matter what excuse. I am certain that if Saddam or Kim had Agent Orange it would be classified as a WMD.

 

[Spyke]

I think if you know that it is a chem. weapon, and it has the possibility to cause massive civilian and military damage then it is WMD, no matter what excuse.

It was delivered on scene in various forms. Plane, truck, even instances of being carried by individual troops in backpacks. It was not even known originally that Agent Orange was subject to 'mist drift', that it could carry downwind as much as 500+ yards. Empty barrels were converted into BBQ pits, to store food such as potatoes in, and other uses by troops in the field. It took a while for the effects on those exposed to be noticed in great enough numbers for someone to realize there might be a correlation between the agent and the sicknesses.

I am certain that if Saddam or Kim had Agent Orange it would be classified as a WMD.

Of course. And if the US attempted to deploy it today it would also be classified as a WMD.

 

[nico]

Ok so Agent Orange is a WMD, thus why isn't the US helping Vietnam with assitance to try to clean up that mess? See also WMD IMO and I assume many others is something that even if not intended and that is a NBC is WMD. Anything that causes damage beyond a conventional munition scope. And obviously Agent Orange is a Chem. weapon.

 

[Spyke]

Ok so Agent Orange is a WMD, thus why isn't the US helping Vietnam with assitance to try to clean up that mess?

The US should be helping Vietnam clean up regardless of whether Agent Orange is classified as a WMD.

Anything that causes damage beyond a conventional munition scope. And obviously Agent Orange is a Chem. weapon.

Yes, we know that now. We didn't know that in the '60s, when it was actually used. We have to be careful with condemning with hindsight. Certainly I agree that the US is responsible for assisting Vietnam in dealing with the after effects, and also should be more committed to helping American vets, but I don't condemn the US for using a defoliant for the express intent of denying the enemy cover and food sources. When agents were first considered WMDs and rightly outlawed we were thinking of agents that caused instant debilitation or death on the battlefield. The idea of something that might be a long term killer such as a defoliant like Agent Orange wasn't originally considered until we started seeing problems from exposure to it.

 

[Stokes Pennwalt]

Originally posted by nico
Well sorry, WMD is described as NBC

Prove that Agent Orange is a chemical weapon. Cite references this time.

 

[nico]

Stokes the thing with it (Agent Orange) is that it is something that can be used for non-combatant purposes like your lawn if you really hated those pesky leaves. But it has chem. compounds:

Agent Orange was a 50-50 mix of two chemicals, known conventionally as 2,4,D and 2,4,5,T. The combined product was mixed with kerosene or diesel fuel and dispersed by aircraft, vehicle, and hand spraying. An estimated 19 million gallons of Agent Orange were used in South Vietnam during the war.

The earliest health concerns about Agent Orange were about the product's contamination with TCDD, or dioxin. TCDD is one of a family of dioxins, some found in nature, and are cousins of the dibenzofurans and pcb's.

The TCDD found in Agent Orange is thought to be harmful to man. In laboratory tests on animals, TCDD has caused a wide variety of diseases, many of them fatal. TCDD is not found in nature, but rather is a man-made and always unwanted byproduct of the chemical manufacturing process. The Agent Orange used in Vietnam was later found to be extremely contaminated with TCDD

That is a Chem. weapon see it is not the point whether or not it was used for tree's, it was dangerous, non-convetional, and the dioxin TCDD is a weapon unto itself, it is man-made which only adds fuel to the argument.

Conditions Recognized as Service-Connected for Vietnam Veterans Based on Exposure to Agent Orange or Other Herbicides:

Chloracne
Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma
Soft Tissue Sarcoma
Hodgkin's Disease
Porphyria Cutanea Tarda
Multiple Myeloma
Respiratory Cancers (lung, larynx, trachea and bronchus)
Prostate Cancer
Peripheral Neuropathy (acute or subacute)
Diabetes Mellitus (Type II)

Conditions Recognized in the Children of Vietnam Veterans:

Spina Bifida

If that is not a WMD, then what's cholerine gas in WWI that was considered a WMD?

 

[truth]

It is so refreshing to see such an unbiased poll by someone who is obviously so objective in their personal observations.

Plus, I am so glad that finally someone has stated that Syria has a stable government, not a dictatorship with aspirations to completely destroy a neighboring country. I am sure glad it has not tried that in the past.

 

[Stokes Pennwalt]

Originally posted by nico
That is a Chem.

No, it's a defoliant. Read what you posted. It seals my case and scuttles yours.

If that is not a WMD, then what's cholerine gas in WWI that was considered a WMD?

Chlorine gas was used with the intent of incapacitating/killing enemy soldiers directly, through its own actions. That's what a weapon does. Conversely, AO was used to remove dense pallisade layers so that the enemy structures/personnel underneath could then be targeted with actual weapons.

Let's try an analogy. A jet fighter has an attack radar and an air-to-air missile. The radar illuminates the enemy airplane so the missile can see it. The radar isn't the weapon. The missile is. Ancillary effects of the radar against the enemy are merely incidental.

 

[nico]

See Agent Orange has man made chemicals in it:

TCDD is not found in nature, but rather is a man-made and always unwanted byproduct of the chemical manufacturing process.

Chemical process, you cannot deny it is not a chemical based weapon against foilage. I understand the fact that the Agent was not intended as a weapon against the population, but it was. Thus indirectly or not it was a WMD. I am not faulting per se so much the US for doing it, I am saying that it was un-wise to do that without extensive testing. I know it's a defoilant, but it has undeniably massive side effects on those who are exposed to it. Which comes into the debate, is a WMD something only intended to kill, or something is not conventional and is not meant to kill yet it does. I go to the latter, any NBC IMO is a WMD.

 

[Spyke]

Nico, to quote from your quote:

The Agent Orange used in Vietnam was later found to be extremely contaminated with TCDD

'Later' is the key word. It was 'later' found to contain large doses of TCDD after experiments with lab rats. I already said as much in my earlier post. I also already agreed that Agent Orange can be considered an WMD now. But that was not known in the 60s when it was used and there was no intent to use it as such. That is the key.

You say they should have tested it more. Possibly, but it wasn't new, having first been developed as a defoliate in the 40s. As they begin using it in Vietnam they strengthened it and also used it in heavier doses. Were they guilty of not doing more extensive testing? In hindsight, yes, but hindsight is always much clearer. In the '60s they were looking for immediate ways to hinder the NVA. You don't always have the luxuries you do in peacetime.

see it is not the point whether or not it was used for tree's, it was dangerous, non-convetional, and the dioxin TCDD is a weapon unto itself, it is man-made which only adds fuel to the argument.

There is no real argument. We both agree that NOW Agent Orange would be considered a WMD. We both seem to agree that there was no intent to use it as a WMD. So that is the point.

A) Is Agent Orange a WMD? Yes.

B) Was the US guilty of knowingly using Agent Orange as a WMD on the people of Vietnam in the 60s? No.

C) Should the US have done more testing? Knowing what we know now, sure. It was unfortunate for both Vietnamese and Americans.