Religious delusions are common symptoms of schizophrenia.

so?
it is still a voice.
think solipsm

in any case, as silas indicated, schizophrenia will manifest itself based on all or particular aspects of an individuals thoughts and beliefs. it cannot be otherwise.
 
MW said:
scientists...have already proven there is a pathological connection between schizophrenia and religious delusion.
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what do you mean by a connection between religious delusion and schizophrenia?

what is this connection?

and again what do you consider to be a religious delusion?
 
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ellion do you ask these inane questions because your having a laugh, or are you genuinely that foolish. the first two are particularly interesting, from your perspective I think.
http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychiatry/Mysticism/Schizophrenia_Mysticism.htm
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm
http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/mental.htm
http://www.smw.ch/archive200x/2004/25/smw-10322.html

and no, I dont know you, But I've read you, so am entitled to surmise position.
 
thanks geeser, that was an interesting read no revelations really for me but i thought this was relevant to MWs arguement.

taken from

http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychiatry/Mysticism/Schizophrenia_Mysticism.htm

Siglag tells us that 52% of the schizophrenic respondents reported having a mystical experience, "supporting the idea that the schizophrenic population perceive themselves as having mystical experience at least as often as individuals in nonschizophrenic populations" (p.4). In addition they scored significantly above those schizophrenic that did not report a mystical experience as hypothesized. Data analysis lead Siglag to the following conclusions:

"Schizophrenic individuals who claim to have had a mystical experience are similar to other schizophrenic individuals in that they:

1. do not feel any greater control over their experiences than other schizophrenics;

2. do not experience a greater since of coping ability than other schizophrenics;

3. do not experience any more improvement in their relationships than other schizophrenics;

4. experience terror, fear, depression, and a sense of insecurity.

Schizophrenic individuals who claim to have had a mystical experience differ from other schizophrenic individuals in that they:

1. are more likely to have experienced a sense of unity, oneness, or connectedness in the world;

2. report more of a range of affective experiences, and are more likely to have experienced joyful, peaceful states of consciousness;

3. are more likely to report time-space distortions;

4. experience more of a sense of sacredness or holiness;

5. are more likely to see their experiences as valid and meaningful than other schizophrenics" (pp.10-11).

Siglag explains the implications of such findings; if it could be determined which patients were involved in the mystical process as well as the psychosis, therapy could be directed at integration of the "knowledge" acquired - utilizing the growth-potential of the mystical experience.
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i still think that MW needs to clarify what connection she is making between schizophrenia and religious delusions as the only deep relationship i am aware of is that they are both expereinces are states of consciousness.

it would help if these points could be clarified:

what do you mean by a connection between religious delusion and schizophrenia?

what is this connection?

and what do you consider to be a religious delusion?
 
Well perhaps if you read the F*cking links! Youd see the relevance to what is being said!. She Got a point!.

http://www.hubin.org/facts/history/history_schizophrenia_en.html
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418882_1
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/february/polimeni.asp

**Modern Christians are betting their life on the assumption that the visions and voices mentioned in The New Testament are real visions and real voices, rather than common paranoid schizophrenia. Of course nowadays, if Joe Blow layperson came up to the Pastor and told him about visions and voices he'd been experiencing, we'd all think the guy had schizophrenia. So what's the difference between Joe Blow of today, and the Apostle Paul of the past, other than a distance of time and location? Why accept the visions and voices of a total stranger (the Apostle Paul), yet reject the same from someone closer to home? Is it just the old adage, "a prophet is not without honor except in his own home"???**http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm

Abraham, likely schizophrenic
Moses, more than likely schizophrenic
Jesus, totally lost out of his mind. Schizophrenic
Paul, manipulator, scoundrel, took advantage of ingnorance, perhaps schizoid.

Any and all folks in the bible claiming visions, of god, angels, demons, more than likely schizophrenic.

Godless
 
godless said:
Well perhaps if you read the F*cking links! Youd see the relevance to what is being said!.
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godess you are just bing irrational!

i did read all the links that geeser provided me with and i appreciate them

including the one from which you took your quote but it was written by an idiot, a very biased unprofessional and subjective opinion of the nature of religous experience.


if you think MW hjas a point would you care to clarify these points for her:


what do you mean by a connection between religious delusion and schizophrenia?

what is this connection?

and what do you consider to be a religious delusion?


the only relationship that i am aware of as evidenced in the more pofessional articles provided is that schizophrenia and religous EXPERIENCE are states of consciousness.

if their is another connection please outline it. this is all i ask.
 
godless did you read your own links? try them

one is about understanding schizophrenia through the theory of evolution.
one is a log in page for a subscriptioon based journal.
one is a historical perspective of szhizophrenia.

none of your links correlate DEEPLY MANIFEST REALTIONSHIP between religious expereince and schizophrenia either.
 
hapsburg said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
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that is a link to a defintion of christianity. i dont need to know what christianity is.
 
i would doubt that even 1% of religious folks would harm themselves due to "voices in their head".
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You would find that percentage rise by around 95 if those religious folk truly believed it was god talking to them. We're not talking "voices", we are talking the voice of a being they worship without fail.

Obviously you have those that have fallen off the edge, (i.e lori), who has already gone so far as to apply testicle cream that she found in a garbage can to her back because she prayed to god.

But then, any believer can and will turn that way too if they believe their god is talking to them and is commanding them. That's not a far step to go really considering these people believe god exists, worship that being, pray to that being, and fully expect that being to 'communicate' with them.

There are other forms that do not rely on god's voice: people holding poisonous snakes, people having fits and seizures, mass cult suicides, talking gibberish, (in tongues), people paying £50,000 for a rotten cheese on toast because it has a 'face' that looks like Mary and so on.

Even crack addicts are not that messed up.
 
ellion said:
hapsburg: i get it, it was a joke. haha
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If it took you two full minutes to figure that out, then I am surprised you know how to type.
 
what do you mean by a connection between religious delusion and schizophrenia?
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Schizophrenics have illusions of religious nature, due to extreme exposure, and belief in religious dogma. i.e. Speaking in tounges, hearing voice of god, belief of grandeur, "elected people of god" and so on. The connection is
evolutional.

what is this connection?
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Primitive mentality. In reference to the study of Dr. Julian Jaynes click The minds evolutionary hallusinating voices were comon to be consdered the voice of god. When society advanced the voices went silent, chaotic, remnants of the bicameral mentality are gods, demons, ghosts, spirits, beliefs of mythical nature. Thus most people who suffer from schizophrenia, are, have been in the past very involved in mystical beliefs.


and what do you consider to be a religious delusion?
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Yates is a good example. She drowned her five kids cause god told her so!. Is that deusional enough for you?

one is about understanding schizophrenia through the theory of evolution.
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I know that, I gave that because it is apparent that schizophrenia has existed, in ancient times. The New Testament is enough proof, that these people were having delusional dreams, that they thought to be real, they spoke to god, had visions of saviors, and so on. Why? Because these nomads were usually slaves and oppresed by others, they saught a way out, delusional dreaming became real to these people.

none of your links correlate DEEPLY MANIFEST REALTIONSHIP between religious expereince and schizophrenia either
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It's all a matter of interpretation. I showed historical facts that schizophrenia has existed thorught out the ages, when and in fact! people were even more mythical than today. Not all nutheads, believe the word of god absolutely, there would have been more schizophrenics then. But lets take a closer look at recent events. Rev. Jim Jones; Schizoid who manipulated mass suitside. David Koresh; the idiots following this SOB, thougth of him as some kind of messiah, he ended up being responsible for many deaths as well. In reality he was a paranoid schizo, who manipulated the gullible with the bible.

have a nice read.

Godless
 
water said:
So you do *not* have a defined standard of normalcy,

you have not done any authoritative research in that field yourself,

and you just take for granted what those studies say.

Think about this, Medicine Woman, and how non-credible you are making yourself by the way you act and speak.
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M*W: I do not claim to be a psychiatrist, but I am interested in their research, especially studies done on schizophrenics with religious delusions, but I have not personally done any independent research in this field. I leave that to the experts. However, I have read credible peer-reviewed research on the subject, because it interests me.

I fail to see how "non-credible" I look by reporting on research other professionals in the field have done. The subject is worth discussing, therefore, I presented it the forum. Regardless of how "non-credible" you or others say that I "act and speak," you cannot offer any credible refutation to the research I have presented. And, besides, who the hell do you think you are anyway, the religion forum gestapo? Get a life.
 
There could be a specific part of the brain responsible for religious concepts, and this could be effected by schizophrenia, perhaps there is some kind of inflammation of the brain near that spot.
 
spidergoat said:
There could be a specific part of the brain responsible for religious concepts, and this could be effected by schizophrenia, perhaps there is some kind of inflammation of the brain near that spot.
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*************
M*W: Yes, I believe you're right. There has also been research done in this area. It's current theory that inflammation causes a lot of problems, including heart disease. The onset of cardioinflammation is in childhood, but the first symptom is usually the first heart attack during middle-age or older. Plaque has been said to begin forming as a result of cardioinflammation, so it's not always because of family history, diet and lifestyle.

Inflammation can happen in the brain, too. My own personal belief is that a lengthy trip down the birth canal with severe fetal head molding can also lead to psychiatric problems. Sometimes they are noticed in young children with learning disabilities, but often psychiatric problems manifest during the teen years. Could it be due to inflammation? It could, because the inflammatory process lies dormant or at least manifests as we grow older. Ultimately, it's probably the inflammatory process that finally does us in.
 
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