Religion or Cult?

[SkinWalker]

The use of "cult" or "devotion" and "worship" in these cases would be tropes.

This discussion is primarily concerned with specific use of such words and not figurative or metaphorical.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I have yet to see a clear, concise and functional distinction between cult and religion.

Where is that line?

The dictionary is certainly not sufficient to make the distinction, in my opinion, but perhaps it will give us a starting point:

religion
NOUN: 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religi, religin-, perhaps from religre, to tie fast. See rely.

cult
NOUN: 1a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

ETYMOLOGY: Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate. See kwel-1 in Appendix I.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

So is it simply that if a religion has a bad reputation in the general public, then it's a cult? :bugeye:
If it is simply that is has a human leader then it seems the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church and many Buddhist sects and some Muslim sects would qualify.

Where do you think the line is (or should be) drawn?

cult;

idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity ( often used before a noun )
the cult of youth
a cult hero


object of idolization: a person, philosophy, or activity regarded with extreme or excessive admiration

fad: something popular or fashionable among a devoted group of enthusiasts ( often used before a noun )
has taken on cult status


These are, IMO, broader meanings of the term 'cult'.
Religion, being the great subject that it is, is merely a subjective feature, when asociated with the term.
Religion is based on scripture, not anyone who has a glint in their eye, or fantastic teeth. The fact that people can be fooled into following a charismatic personality, believing it to be religion, has no bearing on scriptoral religions.
There is a world of difference between 'cult' and 'religion'.

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

That is what would've been said of christians by nonchristians at 1 time.
1111

 

[(Q)]

cult
NOUN: 1a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Who decides what religions are true or false in that regard? Aren't they all false? I don't see much difference between religion and cult.

Where do you think the line is (or should be) drawn?

No line is required, except for the theists who don't want their religions called cults, even though that's exactly what they are.

 

[(Q)]

I've seen cultists interviewed, and it is often quite clear that they are enamoured with the great leader.

They get this blank look in their eyes as they talk about what a perfect person the leader is, and how they'd follow him in whatever he said (note: him, not his ideas).

They'll say straight out how charismatic the leader is.

When pushed, they'll say that they agree with the leader's ideas, of course, but there's seldom much depth there. When the leader changes his mind, as cult leaders often do, it is always rationalised by the followers - perhaps as a "new revelation". It doesn't seem to matter how many new revelations there are - faith in the leader seldom waivers.

I see that in Christians and Muslims too. You can read it here, you just can't see their eyes.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity; object of idolization: a person, philosophy, or activity regarded with extreme or excessive admiration; fad: something popular or fashionable among a devoted group of enthusiasts

These are, IMO, broader meanings of the term 'cult'. Religion, being the great subject that it is, is merely a subjective feature, when asociated with the term.

* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

Jan has taken the correct approach to understanding these words. You have to start by not assuming that "religion" and "cult" have the same meaning, and continue by analyzing their different uses.

Religion is based on scripture. . . .

"Scripture" means "sacred writing," and most religions arose long before the technology of writing was invented, so that can't be true.

There is a world of difference between 'cult' and 'religion'.

Perhaps that's an exaggeration. Sure, we talk about cults of personality and cults built around economic theories, but these days when we use "cult" without a modifying phrase we invariably mean a religious cult. For example, the Cargo Cult, the Jonestown Cult. (How many people even at the time knew its proper name was "the People's Temple"?)

So the question remains: What differentiates a religion from a religious cult? The consensus answer on this thread seems to be the correct one: A religious cult is a religious belief system that markedly differs from its neighboring systems, usually in ways that the general population finds bizarre or downright objectionable, and a religion is a religious cult that has long survived the death of its founder and has usually either shed most of its bizarre and objectionable qualities or has been remarkably successful in evangelizing them.

 

[Jan Ardena]

That is what would've been said of christians by nonchristians at 1 time.
1111

Not quite sure what you mean by that.

jan.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Not quite sure what you mean by that.

I think he's suggesting that the early Christians were actually a cult brought together by their adulation of Jesus's charismatic personality.

The problem with that hypothesis is that Jesus was not a real person so there was no one to radiate that charisma and focus the cult phenomenon. The Romans were consummate bureaucrats with a fetish for accurate and generally uncensored record-keeping, yet there are no contemporary accounts of the extraordinary events alleged to have occurred during Jesus's life, which would have been widely discussed and debated. AFAIK the first mention of Jesus was not written until after his alleged death.

There's no reason, of course, that a proper cult could not spring up after the subject of the cult worship has died, but I'm curious whether anyone here can actually name one. Even Haile Selassie, né Ras Tafari Makonnen, was celebrated during his lifetime, and the Rastafarian faith was well established and stripped of its more bizarre qualities by the time of his death; i.e., not a Selassie personality cult.

If early Christianity was a cult, it was a highly unusual one that challenges the paradigm of definitions in our dictionaries.

 

[one_raven]

The problem with that hypothesis is that Jesus was not a real person...

I disagree, but this is not the place for that off-topic discussion.
This is.

 

[iceaura]

There's no reason, of course, that a proper cult could not spring up after the subject of the cult worship has died, but I'm curious whether anyone here can actually name one.

A couple of the Cargo Cults in the South Pacific appear to have arisen after their alleged founder had left, at least.

Unless those are religions now.

If early Christianity was a cult, it was a highly unusual one that challenges the paradigm of definitions in our dictionaries.

The parallels between early Christian and more recent Cargo Cult emergences are reasonably clear. John Frum just needs a martyr story and a borrowed sacred text.

Likewise the Mormon and the Muslim parallels, if we can safely take the early Mormon church to be a cult - which I would, without hesitation.

 

[Leo Volont]

You mean a definition dumbed down enough for you to grasp it... oh wait, since you have an Agenda... for you to believe it.

but let us try. A Religion is a Large Basic Thing. A Cult is derivative and necessarily smaller... oh, we may already have gone beyond CONCISE... for Little Minds some things can never be TOO concise.

Anyway, for a Religion to be large enough to properly contrast itself to a Cult, it must very much part of the Institutionalization of of a Civilization, that is, all the Give and Take, Moral and Legal upon which a Civilization depends, must tie back to this Religion. A CULT or a breakaway Sect, is simply a splinter of renegades from the Source Religion, or perhaps free of any influence of the Institutionalized Religion, and simply is setting itself up as a competitor.

To be Concise enough for you, think of it in this way -- Religion=Big and Institutionalized. Cult=Small and Socially Rejected.

I have yet to see a clear, concise and functional distinction between cult and religion.

 

[SkinWalker]

Religion=superstitious thought in general. Cult=organized worship or reverence specific to a set of superstitions.

Christianity=religion; Catholism/mormonism=cults within Christianity.

 

[GeoffP]

You could say "Sect" just as easily, Skin. It's just a semantic pejorative call, with maybe a few notable exceptions like Raelians etc.

 

[lixluke]

Difference between cult and religion:
Religion is a set of beliefs/principals/practices by an individual that involves metaphysical/supernatural ideals.

Cult is a group that uses status quo/conformity and propaganda to manipulate people into joining a group. Ostracizing or berating those who do not conform is simply a form of manipulation.

 

[SkinWalker]

You could say "Sect" just as easily, Skin. It's just a semantic pejorative call, with maybe a few notable exceptions like Raelians etc.

It's only pejorative to members of cults who'd like to belittle members of other cults whom they hold some measure of disdain for or bigotry toward. I don't use it in the pejorative sense nor do I think I should be required to tailor my use of the English language to conform to the desires of one superstitious group to dominate others. Indeed, I see no rational argument put forth that 'Raelians' are any less legitimate than any other cult.

Difference between cult and religion:
Religion is a set of beliefs/principals/practices by an individual that involves metaphysical/supernatural ideals.

Cult is a group that uses status quo/conformity and propaganda to manipulate people into joining a group. Ostracizing or berating those who do not conform is simply a form of manipulation.

Wrong. See my definition above.

 

[GeoffP]

It's only pejorative to members of cults who'd like to belittle members of other cults whom they hold some measure of disdain for or bigotry toward. I don't use it in the pejorative sense nor do I think I should be required to tailor my use of the English language to conform to the desires of one superstitious group to dominate others. Indeed, I see no rational argument put forth that 'Raelians' are any less legitimate than any other cult.

Heh. Fine, fine: I don't think there's any difference between a religion and a cult save that "cult" is pejorative. And it isn't only theists who use it in that manner.

 

[lixluke]

Wrong. See my definition above.

Your description is not nearly as accurate as the one I provided.

 

[SkinWalker]

Wrong. Yours is irrelevant.

 

[disease]

If there's a group with a charismatic 'leader' or head guru guy, and initially there are ashrams everywhere, but then the leader decides "no ashrams", and then deconstructs any outward signs of organization. The group is 'disbanded ' and told there are no more meetings, except when the head guy shows up, every now and then?

Is it still a cult if it had all the outward signs, but now it has as few as possible - a minimum level of organization? Do its members just have to revere their leader and his philosophy? Do they have to give him money, or actively proselytize? What if they don't, but still profess admiration, or a kind of devotion, etc? What if, when you ask about their 'faith', they appear ambivalent, or tell you "there really isn't anything I can tell you"?

 

[Nasor]

like many words, "cult" has taken a different shade of connotation in recent years. Prior to the deluge of strange (and often bogus) religions that inundated the west during the 60's/70's, "cult" simply indicated a particular disciplinary following in a religious leader's footsteps. It was bereft of any negative connotations.

It's true that "cult" didn't come to mean "a bunch of brainwashed idiots" until the mid 20th century. Before that I think it was usually used to refer to religions or religious rituals that seemed ancient or primitive, like ancient Egyptian or Roman sects that no longer exist but would probably have been considered more or less mainstream religions in their day. You could sometimes find it used to simply mean a sect that followed some specific teaching, but more often it would be used by historians or archaeologists talking about strange dead religions.

Edit: You will still find tons of references in history books (especially older ones) to things like "the cult or Ra," even though back in its day it was a major religion that wouldn't fit the modern definition of a cult.