Religion and Sorcery

P

Prince_James

Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
Registered Senior Member
It is my affirmation that religion - all religion, mind you - is essentially sorcery. That, barring perhaps a Diabolic influence in some magic systems, the rituals of magic and religion are the same. For this reason, I have compiled a list.

Religion on the left, witchcraft on the right.

Power words/phrases (amen) | Power words/phrases ("so mote it be")
The shattering of effigies | The shattering of effigies
The usage of consecrated tools | The usage of consecrated tools
Spiritual healing | Spiritual healing
The usage of mantras and prayers | The usage of mantras/incantations
The usage of consecrated amulets and necklaces | The usage of consecrated amulets and necklaces and sigils
Special languages | Special languages
Ecstasy | Ecstasy
Spirit possession and inspiration | Spirit possession and inspiration
The usage of angels, demi-Gods, and saints | The usage of angels, elementals, demi-Gods, saints, demons, lesser creatures...
A ritual space (a church, a temple) | A ritual space (a circle, a grove)
Clergy | Clergy
Group participation | Group participation
Holy books | Holy books
Prophets and teachers | Great magicians and teachers
A belief in mind over matter | A belief in mind over matter
Repetition of special phrases after certain words or phrases | Repetition of special phrases after certain words or phrases
The usage of music | The usage of music
Holidays/special days | Holidays/special days
Sacrifice | Sacrifice
Transusbstantiation | Transubstantiation
Visualization | Visualization
Special signs | Special signs

And many...many more, I am sure.
 
Well congrats Prince, now you have shown us that all mysticism is basically the same crap! ;)
 
witchcraft has many connatations that will no doubt bewilder people because it is quite a loaded term - anyway from the vedic perspective its crystal clear, due to the paradigm of breaking down existence into three gunas (the part that deals with the samkhya philosophy), one can determine 81 different types of religiousity

so there are some people who perform religiousity in the name of sattva guna (for the purpose of understanding god) raja guna (for th e purpose of securing material facility for enjoyment) and tamo guna (for the pursuit of getting what one wants, eg revenge, destruction, belittling/controlling others etc) and there are different parts of the vedas that they utilize to achieve these means.

In other words the distinction between "sorcery" (as you so mystically phrased it) and religion is that religion culminates in understanding god, whereas the other two types are inferior because they only dabble in the phenomenal world of matter (either gross or subtle)
 
YOU FORGOT A FEW...

baby sacrafice / baby fund raiser.
devil worship / some form of good true god worship.
evil intent / humility and good works.
self gratification / helping others.
black magic / prayer for the ill or in need.

there is alot of simliarities it is true...


but what you simply fail to see is that witchcraft... is another religion.

as would be sorcery... or wizardry... depending on what they are based.

there are all forms of religions....

that does not make them all bad.

-MT
 
Prince_James said:
It is my affirmation that religion - all religion, mind you - is essentially sorcery.
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Anytime I see a really decked out Monk or Preist ect.. I always think to myself:

Misty morning, clouds in the sky
Without warning, the wizard walks by
Casting his shadow, weaving his spell
Funny clothes, tinkling bell

Never talking
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic

Evil power disappears
Demons worry when the wizard is near
He turns tears into joy
Everyone's happy when the wizard walks by

Never talking
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic

Sun is shining, clouds have gone by
All the people give a happy sigh
He has passed by, giving his sign
Left all the people feeling so fine

Never talking
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic

:cool:
MII
 
Godless:

Glad to be of service. ;)

LightGigantic:

It is interesting to note that at least some forms of magic are specifically for a religious purpose in mind. The Qabbalah, Aleister Crowley's form of magic, and Neo-Platonic and Christian alchemy, to name but a few, aspire towards realization of God and spiritual enhancement. Even the Black Pullet, an 18th century Grimoire, demands religious purity, as does the magic of Abramelin the Mage. Indeed, magic in the West, as well as in the East (re: Tantra, Taoist mysticism) has always had a spiritual component.

Mosheh Thezion:

Religions sacrifice all sorts of things. Children amongst them.

Most systems of magic focus on the -enslavement- of demons (evocation v. invocation). Several worship regular Gods.

Magic can be used for both, and prayer most certainly is often self-centred (please God let me find a nice wife, or please God get me a new job...)

And religion is filled with curses, hexes, and various other things, asked in the name of God. The Old Testament is basically one big Jewish prayer book to smite everyone around them and make them kings, for instance, and Allah helped Muhammad crush his Arab neighbours.
 
PJ

It is interesting to note that at least some forms of magic are specifically for a religious purpose in mind. The Qabbalah, Aleister Crowley's form of magic, and Neo-Platonic and Christian alchemy, to name but a few, aspire towards realization of God and spiritual enhancement. Even the Black Pullet, an 18th century Grimoire, demands religious purity, as does the magic of Abramelin the Mage. Indeed, magic in the West, as well as in the East (re: Tantra, Taoist mysticism) has always had a spiritual component.
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the point is that these things are not pure religion (ie endeavours done solely for the purpose of understanding god) sincethe act of performing some nefarious task to acquire the woman of one's dreams (or alternatively get rid of the woman of your nightmares) is not a prerequisite for self realization
 
Lightgigantic:

Yes, but just as the Vedas have various curses and hexes (re: the Atharva Veda) so do these systems allow for such. Although in the end, such is considered to be inferior and oft-times immoral to use.

But my post wasn't actually in support of a positive conception of witchcraft and religion, but pointing out that ultiomately there is not substantial difference.
 
Prince_James said:
Lightgigantic:

Yes, but just as the Vedas have various curses and hexes (re: the Atharva Veda) so do these systems allow for such. Although in the end, such is considered to be inferior and oft-times immoral to use.

But my post wasn't actually in support of a positive conception of witchcraft and religion, but pointing out that ultiomately there is not substantial difference.
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You can find references where the vedas are referred to "the three vedas" (rather than the four) since the arthava was not viewed as necessary.

In other words it was not seen as necessary - you have to understand that the vedas are instructions for EVERYONE - not just the theisticly pure (90% of the vedas deal with fruitive activities, 9% deals with empiricism and speculation and 1% deals with pure unmotivated pure devotion to god, which is why the krsna recommends in the BG (which is seen as an overview of the vedas) that arjuna be transcendental to those parts of the vedas, ie 99% of it, that deals with the three modes of nature)

BG 2.45 The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

BTW - the facility to dabble in the modes given by the vedas does not reflect god's view of what it ultimately worth while - it is more of a concession for the living entity to accept practices that will gradually purify them (fruitive activity and speculation )
 
LightGigantic:

Granted, but considering they are of minor usage towards that ultimate goal you find worthy of pursuing, you will accept that there is at least some degree of foundation in their usages, yes?
 
Prince_James said:
LightGigantic:

Granted, but considering they are of minor usage towards that ultimate goal you find worthy of pursuing, you will accept that there is at least some degree of foundation in their usages, yes?
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They are not of minor use - actually speculation and fruitive activity are considered impediments to pure devotion for god - the advantage about dovetailing such inclinations within the injunctions of the vedas is that they can be purified
 
I’m still waiting for the definition of what constitutes a ‘holy ‘man’.
Let us begin with the word “holy”.
 
Lightgigantic:

They are not of minor use - actually speculation and fruitive activity are considered impediments to pure devotion for god - the advantage about dovetailing such inclinations within the injunctions of the vedas is that they can be purified
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In association with the vedas giving good karma that leads one to spiritual devotion?

Baron Max:

And does it change anything at all? Does it help anyone at all?
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Not really, no.
 
Prince_James said:
Lightgigantic:



In association with the vedas giving good karma that leads one to spiritual devotion?
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A person may have been a solider before they were a car mechanic, but being a car mechanic is not dependant on being a solider.

In other words correct karma does not lead to devotion, since devotion is independant of karma (there are numerous scriptural quotations of the material erudite being disqualified from devotion to god and the grossly sinful being qualified - the only requirement for pure devotional service is the association of a personality who is situated in pure devotion

The only argument you can offer from the side of pious works is that it can be a good field for preperation - to use a metaphor, you have a better chance of starting a fire if you have dry kindling rather than wet logs, but ultimately it is dependant on having a source of fire - and if the source of fire is potent enough (ie if the rightly situated pure devotee is potent enough) the dampness/dryness of the material to be burnt is not an issue (ie the piety/impiety of the candidate for spiritual life is not an issue) - all that is required is the suitable association between the source of fire and the material to be burnt
 
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