Religion and Human Rights

So we must sacrifice what we as a majority believe to be morally right to satisfy the rights of a state that does not respect human rights?
You miss the point: why is our idea of human rights any better than that state's?
Norsefire:



Defending your beliefs. Obviously, if the beliefs you are defending are immoral then defending them is also immoral.
So you're calling yourself immoral, since you have immoral beliefs.

What's "value"? Are you talking about intrinsic value? If you are, then certainly all people are equal in value. But knowing you, you're probably thinking of some kind of economic value instead.
No, I'm talking about "goodness"; some people are better than others. Then we move on to ability: some people are more able than others. The state ought to reward the best first; to the best, go the best.

So now you see how important it is to be specific about what kind of "equality" you're talking about.
Right now, equality in character; and since there are people that are better than others, they ought to receive more and be treated better than others. That is only fair.



No they aren't.
According to Wiki, about one percent of the population are psychopaths. That is alot.


That would still lead to unjust outcomes.
Now, how is that?

Yes, but the law should be fair and just. Since the death penalty is manifestly unfair and unjust, it shouldn't be part of the law.
The death penalty is entirely fair.

If you don't break the law, then there isn't a problem. Break it, and there are consequences.

What is unfair is allowing someone to live who unjustly took the life of another.
 
Norsefire:

You're repeating yourself.

So you're calling yourself immoral, since you have immoral beliefs.

I do? What are they?

No, I'm talking about "goodness"; some people are better than others. Then we move on to ability: some people are more able than others. The state ought to reward the best first; to the best, go the best.

The best are best able to look after themselves, surely. The state should take care of the weak and needy.

Right now, equality in character; and since there are people that are better than others, they ought to receive more and be treated better than others. That is only fair.

Let's go back and remember what you are talking about. You started this by saying that people aren't equal. By "equal" you now say you mean "equality of character". So your claim is that people don't have "equal" characters. I don't really know what that is supposed to mean. I don't know how you propose to judge who is "better" than whom. And I don't know why you think the "better" people ought to get more privileges.

I think you need to take stock and rethink whatever it is you're trying to argue here.

The death penalty is entirely fair.

No. As I have explained, there have been many cases where innocent people have been executed.

If you don't break the law, then there isn't a problem. Break it, and there are consequences.

That's far too simplistic. You're a hopeless idealist. You need to get into the real world.
 
Norsefire:

I do? What are they?
Left-wing ideals are immoral, in my opinion.

The best are best able to look after themselves, surely. The state should take care of the weak and needy.
I think society, through charity, ought to take care of the weak and needy; the best require the best of the resources, as they represent the valor and pride of a state.

Let's go back and remember what you are talking about. You started this by saying that people aren't equal. By "equal" you now say you mean "equality of character". So your claim is that people don't have "equal" characters. I don't really know what that is supposed to mean.
Some people are more honest, fairer, more intelligent, and more well-mannered and more moral than others; that is all I am saying. And they ought to be treated better because of that.

I don't know how you propose to judge who is "better" than whom.
I thought you'd know; after all, there is a "right" opinion, in your opinion.

And I don't know why you think the "better" people ought to get more privileges.
They are better; better, as in, more disciplined, harder-working, and more able. To the best, go the best.

It is called "elitism". Wikipedia is helpful here.
Except, an elitism of merit, not of money and power.

Elitists tend to favor systems such as meritocracy, technocracy... as opposed to radical democracy, political egalitarianism and populism.

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

Elitism in the context of education is the practice of concentrating attention on or allocating funding to the best students, or those students who rank highest in a particular field of endeavour. For example, a politician who promotes specialized biochemistry classes for students deemed by conventional structures to be highly intelligent in an effort to cure diseases might be accused of elitism.

If you don't know what meritocracy and technocracy are:

Meritocracy is a system of a government or other organization where in appointments are made and responsibilities assigned to individuals based upon demonstrated talent and ability (merit).[1] In a meritocracy, society rewards (via wealth, position, and social status) those who show talent and competence as demonstrated by past actions or by competition. Evaluation systems, such as formal education, are closely linked to notions of meritocracy.

This is opposed to other value systems, where reward and legitimacy is based upon possession of wealth (plutocracy), origin (aristocracy), family connections (nepotism), property (oligarchy), friendship (cronyism), seniority (gerontocracy), popularity (democracy) or other historical determinants of social position and political power.

Technocracy is a form of meritocracy, whereby appointments for positions are made based on demonstrated technical expertise.

Meritocracy is far more logical than democracy; and we are not equal.
No. As I have explained, there have been many cases where innocent people have been executed.
This isn't a good enough basis for halting the entire justice system; and, in essence, it's a fairly irrelevant point in the sense that there have been cases where the criminal is clearly guilty and this is obvious.


ar too simplistic. You're a hopeless idealist. You need to get into the real world.
It has to be that simple, unless you're saying it's okay to break the law.
 
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Norsefire:

Left-wing ideals are immoral, in my opinion.

That's a stupidly wide statement. Think for a moment.

I think society, through charity, ought to take care of the weak and needy; the best require the best of the resources, as they represent the valor and pride of a state.

Can't the best generate their own resources? Aren't they the best at that?

Some people are more honest, fairer, more intelligent, and more well-mannered and more moral than others; that is all I am saying. And they ought to be treated better because of that.

Why?

No. As I have explained, there have been many cases where innocent people have been executed.

This isn't a good enough basis for halting the entire justice system; and, in essence, it's a fairly irrelevant point in the sense that there have been cases where the criminal is clearly guilty and this is obvious.

You're repeating yourself. I already explained your error. The entire justice system does not need to be halted - just the death penalty. Please review my previous posts if you have forgotten.

---

You seem to be straying off topic, by the way. Do you have anything else to say about the topic?
 
Meritocracy is far more logical than democracy; and we are not equal.

Must say that in essence I tend to agree, but it turns out to not be that simple.

Running a country well or running a country badly are 'after the fact' and dependant upon more factors than can really be blamed upon a specific individual. Could Cameron have avoided financial crisis any better than Brown? You'd need both of them in the exact same position to determine that - something that is not even remotely feasible.

If you look purely at past actions, you can't really say much concerning future ones.
 
Norsefire:

That's a stupidly wide statement.
I learned from the best: you!

Can't the best generate their own resources? Aren't they the best at that?
Now you're advocating laissez-faire?

The best most probably can look after themselves, but that doesn't mean they can't yet be elevated and given even greater opportunity by the state; as they are the best, they shall receive the best in order to become even better; the best, for instance, would be the best suited to govern; the best scientists, for instance, would be the ones given every resource by the state (not the worst scientists).


Why? That is only fair.

It is unfair to treat hard-working and respectful people as "equal" to undisciplined bastards. It's immoral.


You're repeating yourself. I already explained your error. The entire justice system does not need to be halted - just the death penalty. Please review my previous posts if you have forgotten.
After you halt the death penalty, you thereby send a message to criminals that they are the victors; you also de-emphasize the absolute rule of law; you also create a leniency toward criminals, and you ignore the possible wishes of the victim.

It's nonsensical. "A tooth for a tooth"; egalitarian, and fair.

Must say that in essence I tend to agree, but it turns out to not be that simple.

Running a country well or running a country badly are 'after the fact' and dependant upon more factors than can really be blamed upon a specific individual. Could Cameron have avoided financial crisis any better than Brown? You'd need both of them in the exact same position to determine that - something that is not even remotely feasible.

If you look purely at past actions, you can't really say much concerning future ones.
You are correct to a point, but certainly past merit has some indication of future potential; one cannot, for instance, say that a man's reputation is never well-deserved; indeed, a reputation is earned precisely because a man proves his ability (at least, if it is a reputation for technical expertise) and as such, we can, with a degree of certainty, appoint such experts to office and be confident that they will persevere and be successful.

We can certainly be much more confident in that situation, at least, then in a situation where we elect "officials" based on popularity contests where the results are easily swayed by pretty graphics.
 
Norsefire:

We've drifted off topic, so I'll stop responding now. You idea that life imprisonment for criminals sends a message to them telling them that they are the victors is nonsensical and really not worth wasting more time on.
 
Norsefire:

We've drifted off topic, so I'll stop responding now. You idea that life imprisonment for criminals sends a message to them telling them that they are the victors is nonsensical and really not worth wasting more time on.

Just a correction: Life in prison with paid food, residence, and recreation.

How frightening.
 
And, no freedom, which trumps food, residence and recreation. Don't believe it? Ask any inmate.

I'm sure it sucks, but if we're gonna put 'em in for life, we might as well simply execute them. It is the right of the state.
 
Folks, the topic here has not been about what are human rights and who decides them, it is the result of the decision to make defaming religion a human rights violation.

What do you think lies in our futures with such a decision? Will we see an increase in Islamic violence and protests? Will there be a decrease? Have we moved ourselves back to the Stoneage with such a decision?
 
No, I don't think so.

But I'm not sure I understand you correctly: you said that it has become a human rights violation to criticize Islam?
 
No, I don't think so.

But I'm not sure I understand you correctly: you said that it has become a human rights violation to criticize Islam?

NO! I never said that. Please read the posts. The word is "DEFAME"!!!

How many fucking times do I have to repeat this?

No, you don't think so... what?
 
NO! I never said that. Please read the posts. The word is "DEFAME"!!!

How many fucking times do I have to repeat this?

No, you don't think so... what?

So it's a human rights violation to 'defame' Islam. Why is that?
 
So it's a human rights violation to 'defame' Islam. Why is that?

We would have to ask the Muslims who pushed it through. Clearly, Muslims don't want anyone defaming Islam. We've already seen Muslims kill people who draw cartoons of Muhammad, riot in the streets, protest to the point of wanting blood.

Stoneage thinking.
 
Okay, now I understand what you're saying.

As for how I feel, I'm unsure; I'm not a big believer that free speech is necessarily what a rational species ought to allow, but at the same time, I don't want Islam being our absolute.
 
. . . . I'm not a big believer that free speech is necessarily what a rational species ought to allow . . . .
Wow! You have said a lot of dumb-ass and outright crazy-ass things since you joined us, but this one takes the cake. Please defend that belief.

And don't cop out and cite yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. That is fraud: Lying to someone in order to manipulate their behavior for your own profit (or, in this case, amusement). Fraud is illegal in the USA, as are conspiracy to commit crimes, incitement of a riot, preventing people from sleeping, and various other well-defined and extremely narrow constraints on free speech.

What limits do you put on free speech and what is your justification?
 
A rational species must create direction and long-term goals, and must be absolute in a uniformity of belief; otherwise, you have politics, and politics are a waste of time. Support the state or get the hell out.

Thus a rational species will have an indomitable will to achieve a goal. "Diverse" societies won't get anywhere, because people can't agree on what action is necessary.

It has to do with efficiency.

Remember, this is only hypothetical
 
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A rational species must create direction and long-term goals, and must be absolute in a uniformity of belief; otherwise, you have politics, and politics are a waste of time. Support the state or get the hell out.

But, there MUST be some form of free speech to make that happen, otherwise no direction or goals can be formulated.
 
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